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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1472 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2021 :  09:02:29  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

*sigh*
"For example, in the �90s, the domain of Falkovnia was a totalitarian regime

Oh, look what happens when brain-dead commissars control the content. Who could see it coming?
No surprise whatsoever. After FR 4e, the rest was "overdue", if anything.
quote:
See what I did there, WotC? I took the original material, your bastardization of it, connected them, and maintained continuity.

Why on Earth do you think they would want to do this?
You seem to retain some illusions about this being a "for profit company" that "strives to sell", or something to this end. So take a look at what was emitted by Lucasfilm under Zombie Mouse.
I hope this doesn't need to be somehow made more obvious? Everyone got it now?
What happened at Whizzards of the Cost is exactly the same, because they are exactly the same sort and do exactly the same thing.
The entire point of this exercise is to piss on you from a balcony, and the entire reason for it is that they are degenerate "aristocrats" whose idea of fun is pissing on the peasants' heads from a balcony. It's not some sort of a medical problem they totally would fix if they could.
Also, if you stay under the balcony and not using a bill-hook to drag them down for a little chat on an even ground, you are their peasant, as far as they (or their lowliest lackeys) are concerned.
Hence "Mike Mearls will fire you from D&D" thing.
And once they got power in a company, legitimately or not, the balcony is all theirs.



I don't think its malicious on the part of the D&D team,they aren't Kathleen Kennedy, its that the intial humility they started with when creating 5e has given way to arrogance and a sense of entitlement.

But none of this is conscious, its just that 5e has been so successful, that arrogance has set in.

Don't get me wrong, the book could still be great and the unique nature of Ravenloft makes the shattered core issue easily fixable.

But this is why its becoming increasingly clear that its major lore changes that they should be doing public playtests for even more then for mechanics.





This is what I meant when I said I was wondering above. That they may be getting arrogant and listening less and prepping to flood the market with trash ideas..... because its too hard to research. I sincerely hope that I'm proven wrong. I can say that I'm of a mixed mind with some things I've seen in some of the latest modules. I see things that are wonderful, right beside things that make me want to cringe. For instance, the ideas behind the enclave in Rime of the Frostmaiden, were pretty well done, but some of the things they did in it (a scroll to summon a tarrasque) made me cringe.

That all being said, breaking up the core... doesn't bother me. Converting a bunch of domains to 5e... ok. I'm probably on the fence with this purchase, and if a lot of it is "we introduce a zombie plague zone... oh, and since we can't have a "Vlad Drakov" we changed the name to make it a chick and added a couple letters"... Yeah, I'm not interested in paying for that tripe. If I hear from folks that they have some pretty well thought out domains with good stories to read... okay, I may buy it just to read them. I honestly don't think I'll have much actual use for the product (that being said, I barely used the original ravenloft.. so...), but one can hope.

I'd actually be intrigued to find out that portions of the realms that "went away" in the second sundering form their own domains... such that maybe they DIDN'T go back to Abeir... or maybe they got copied in the transfer or somesuch. Or maybe a new domain in ravenloft based on the concept of the warlock knights of Vaasa AND Zhengyi AND Telos AND Tenebrous/Orcus or somesuch, complete with a copy of the bloodstone lands or somesuch (maybe with Narfell's demonbinders arising or somesuch). Throw in some dark elves and hags who serve Kiaransalee as willing to aid the "heroes" against this evil or something, as that twist of "uh oh, what did we do". Making the place so darkly evil in a way that I'd never want to see it done on Toril could be a lot of fun. Or maybe Lantan is returning, but a copy of it got attached to Mordenheim where the "frankenstein" spin off is or somesuch and Lantan's a new island nearby with mad scientists.

In short, original story ideas that sound like a fun read.... count me in. Boring stuff I see on TV already just rehashed into something for people to buy? Yeah, not so much.



Ravenloft already had a surprising amount of FR based Domains such as Kartakass, Hazlan, Nova Vassa, Valachan, I'Cath, Aggarath that were either pulled from FR or created for a being that becomes a Dark Lord from FR.

Valachan has a new Dark Lord in the up coming book, we will see if there connection to FR is retained.

The most interesting connection is Hazlan IMHO, as basically a mini Thay, but with it's Mulan Dark Lord plotting genocide against his own race (planning on stealing his assistants Rashemi body to save himself) to avenge himself upon Thay.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1309 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2021 :  11:36:08  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message
To be fair, very few of the Realmsian Darklords have much to actually do with the realms. Only Hazlan has active plans for the Realms; the others just have 'being from Faerun' as a backstory, like how Vlad is from Krynn.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1472 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2021 :  14:43:50  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

To be fair, very few of the Realmsian Darklords have much to actually do with the realms. Only Hazlan has active plans for the Realms; the others just have 'being from Faerun' as a backstory, like how Vlad is from Krynn.



That is why Hazlan is one of my favourite Domains.The other favourite is the one with the Mummy Lord.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10106 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2021 :  14:45:22  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

*sigh*
"For example, in the �90s, the domain of Falkovnia was a totalitarian regime

Oh, look what happens when brain-dead commissars control the content. Who could see it coming?
No surprise whatsoever. After FR 4e, the rest was "overdue", if anything.
quote:
See what I did there, WotC? I took the original material, your bastardization of it, connected them, and maintained continuity.

Why on Earth do you think they would want to do this?
You seem to retain some illusions about this being a "for profit company" that "strives to sell", or something to this end. So take a look at what was emitted by Lucasfilm under Zombie Mouse.
I hope this doesn't need to be somehow made more obvious? Everyone got it now?
What happened at Whizzards of the Cost is exactly the same, because they are exactly the same sort and do exactly the same thing.
The entire point of this exercise is to piss on you from a balcony, and the entire reason for it is that they are degenerate "aristocrats" whose idea of fun is pissing on the peasants' heads from a balcony. It's not some sort of a medical problem they totally would fix if they could.
Also, if you stay under the balcony and not using a bill-hook to drag them down for a little chat on an even ground, you are their peasant, as far as they (or their lowliest lackeys) are concerned.
Hence "Mike Mearls will fire you from D&D" thing.
And once they got power in a company, legitimately or not, the balcony is all theirs.



I don't think its malicious on the part of the D&D team,they aren't Kathleen Kennedy, its that the intial humility they started with when creating 5e has given way to arrogance and a sense of entitlement.

But none of this is conscious, its just that 5e has been so successful, that arrogance has set in.

Don't get me wrong, the book could still be great and the unique nature of Ravenloft makes the shattered core issue easily fixable.

But this is why its becoming increasingly clear that its major lore changes that they should be doing public playtests for even more then for mechanics.





This is what I meant when I said I was wondering above. That they may be getting arrogant and listening less and prepping to flood the market with trash ideas..... because its too hard to research. I sincerely hope that I'm proven wrong. I can say that I'm of a mixed mind with some things I've seen in some of the latest modules. I see things that are wonderful, right beside things that make me want to cringe. For instance, the ideas behind the enclave in Rime of the Frostmaiden, were pretty well done, but some of the things they did in it (a scroll to summon a tarrasque) made me cringe.

That all being said, breaking up the core... doesn't bother me. Converting a bunch of domains to 5e... ok. I'm probably on the fence with this purchase, and if a lot of it is "we introduce a zombie plague zone... oh, and since we can't have a "Vlad Drakov" we changed the name to make it a chick and added a couple letters"... Yeah, I'm not interested in paying for that tripe. If I hear from folks that they have some pretty well thought out domains with good stories to read... okay, I may buy it just to read them. I honestly don't think I'll have much actual use for the product (that being said, I barely used the original ravenloft.. so...), but one can hope.

I'd actually be intrigued to find out that portions of the realms that "went away" in the second sundering form their own domains... such that maybe they DIDN'T go back to Abeir... or maybe they got copied in the transfer or somesuch. Or maybe a new domain in ravenloft based on the concept of the warlock knights of Vaasa AND Zhengyi AND Telos AND Tenebrous/Orcus or somesuch, complete with a copy of the bloodstone lands or somesuch (maybe with Narfell's demonbinders arising or somesuch). Throw in some dark elves and hags who serve Kiaransalee as willing to aid the "heroes" against this evil or something, as that twist of "uh oh, what did we do". Making the place so darkly evil in a way that I'd never want to see it done on Toril could be a lot of fun. Or maybe Lantan is returning, but a copy of it got attached to Mordenheim where the "frankenstein" spin off is or somesuch and Lantan's a new island nearby with mad scientists.

In short, original story ideas that sound like a fun read.... count me in. Boring stuff I see on TV already just rehashed into something for people to buy? Yeah, not so much.



Ravenloft already had a surprising amount of FR based Domains such as Kartakass, Hazlan, Nova Vassa, Valachan, I'Cath, Aggarath that were either pulled from FR or created for a being that becomes a Dark Lord from FR.

Valachan has a new Dark Lord in the up coming book, we will see if there connection to FR is retained.

The most interesting connection is Hazlan IMHO, as basically a mini Thay, but with it's Mulan Dark Lord plotting genocide against his own race (planning on stealing his assistants Rashemi body to save himself) to avenge himself upon Thay.



Did these realms even remotely resemble the realms they were taken from? I remember Hazlan's, but that was pretty much it.

Hmm, one thing that comes to mind now that I think on this idea though. The whole plot of the undead trilogy in Thay hinged upon this idea that there was some kingdom "in the sunrise mountains ruled by Fastrin the Delver".... I know I've posited other theories that Leira tricked Tam into draining the energy of the Athora to bring back Mystra.... but WHAT IF there was a little something to this lore. What if the place Fastrin the Delver came from, that NOONE ever heard of prior to this, went to Ravenloft? What if the ritual Tam was going to do would have, if successful, have called to the mists of ravenloft and turned him into a dark lord?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 27 Feb 2021 14:55:32
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6154 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2021 :  05:53:18  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message
Your love for multi-world/plane spanning linkages always shines through sleyvas.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3534 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2021 :  06:27:11  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It does not grab me, but the cover artist posted the cover art on Artstation. Sharing this for those who like clean cover art (as in, without titles and other stuff in the way).

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/3dk81o


-Nothing wrong with it but yeah, it doesn't jump out at me either. Not that cover art necessarily needs to be better than the art found in the book, but that's what that looks like. An inserted image in the Strad section with a caption. But maybe with a title and some text on the cover, it'll pop more.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faern
Vol I- The Elves of Faern
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10106 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2021 :  14:05:55  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Your love for multi-world/plane spanning linkages always shines through sleyvas.

-- George Krashos



Thank you. The more I think on it, a domain ruled by Fastrin the Delver (who if I remember correctly... killed everyone in his kingdom to prevent the "secret" from getting out? Wasn't that it?) in Ravenloft would be an intriguing idea. Since its also technically the same "place" roughly that Hazlik came from, there could be some tie ins to it. Maybe even something where Fastrin and his kingdom recently reappeared after the finding of his book.

Maybe even we find out that the atropal helping Tam has some ties to ravenloft and similar rituals, since we don't have much of his history.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1472 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2021 :  01:24:26  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message
Hazlin has been confirmed to be in VRGtR, Magical Horrors targeting those with Dark Gifts. I'm not sure what that means in practice.
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Azar
Learned Scribe

218 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2021 :  11:38:44  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

I think I heard they hired a Romani sensitivity consultant.



Polishing the counter while the manor is aflame...talk about skewed priorities.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34704 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2021 :  16:32:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

I think I heard they hired a Romani sensitivity consultant.



Polishing the counter while the manor is aflame...talk about skewed priorities.



Considering that WotC is doing better than Hasbro right now, I'm not sure how it could be said that the manor is aflame, here.

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Azar
Learned Scribe

218 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2021 :  19:29:07  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

I think I heard they hired a Romani sensitivity consultant.



Polishing the counter while the manor is aflame...talk about skewed priorities.



Considering that WotC is doing better than Hasbro right now, I'm not sure how it could be said that the manor is aflame, here.



What's going on with Hasbro? Also, why Hasbro? I didn't have them in mind...consider me confused.

My comment was about the consistency and quality (or lack thereof) of legacy settings they're attempting to update. It has already been established that people will buy anything with the Wizards of the Coast label, so obviously profits aren't the issue. Anyhow, this mishandling has convinced me that they should stay away from Planescape.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

538 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2021 :  19:36:22  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

I think I heard they hired a Romani sensitivity consultant.



Polishing the counter while the manor is aflame...talk about skewed priorities.



Im more concerned about not being racist than I am about lore that hasnt been touched in three editions.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6154 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2021 :  01:19:28  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

I think I heard they hired a Romani sensitivity consultant.



Polishing the counter while the manor is aflame...talk about skewed priorities.



Im more concerned about not being racist than I am about lore that hasnt been touched in three editions.



This is an honest question and has application to something I'm looking at atm: is it appropriate to portray racism in a game book and identify it as such, or is it simply a "no go" zone?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

538 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2021 :  01:23:49  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

I think I heard they hired a Romani sensitivity consultant.



Polishing the counter while the manor is aflame...talk about skewed priorities.



Im more concerned about not being racist than I am about lore that hasnt been touched in three editions.



This is an honest question and has application to something I'm looking at atm: is it appropriate to portray racism in a game book and identify it as such, or is it simply a "no go" zone?

-- George Krashos



The issue is not depicting /racism/, its furthering racist tropes uncritically in your fiction. Ravenloft is racist because the Vistani are a heap of regurgitated real-world anti-Romani stereotypes played completely straight, not because those people face discrimination and oppression in the fictional world they inhabit.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6154 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2021 :  04:01:25  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message
So, we know that the Romani people/culture suffer racism in the RW. The issue in the context of Ravenloft then must be that the original writers took a RW racism situation and transplanted it to the fictional milieu.

How does that work then in a more simplified situation? By that I mean skin colour. Is it inappropriate in your fictional campaign setting to have the dark-skinned Harathi race be the victims of racism?

To be clear, I'm not playing devil's advocate here or looking to push any agenda it might be implied that I have in delving into the topic. I really want to know where that line is.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

538 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2021 :  04:08:46  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

So, we know that the Romani people/culture suffer racism in the RW. The issue in the context of Ravenloft then must be that the original writers took a RW racism situation and transplanted it to the fictional milieu.

How does that work then in a more simplified situation? By that I mean skin colour. Is it inappropriate in your fictional campaign setting to have the dark-skinned Harathi race be the victims of racism?

To be clear, I'm not playing devil's advocate here or looking to push any agenda it might be implied that I have in delving into the topic. I really want to know where that line is.

-- George Krashos



Any work involving skin color-based racism is in conversation with the same issue in real life, whether they want it to be or not; I note that your example here assumes dark skin being discriminated against, which means your fictional world is assuming a lighter skin-based default - so I might ask, why default to white supremacy?

Furthermore, the Vistani issue is not just European-coded fantasy people are mean to dark-skinned outsiders, its that they are drunken, fiddling, evil eye-wielding, tarot card-reading, headscarf-wearing, covered wagon-traveling folk. Its exporting real world stereotypes directly into your fiction, the same as when fantasy settings have Arab slavers and tribal Africans and a bootleg imperial China, whereas the European-esque settings get to be things of creative, original fantasy.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Azar
Learned Scribe

218 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2021 :  07:30:33  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

I think I heard they hired a Romani sensitivity consultant.



Polishing the counter while the manor is aflame...talk about skewed priorities.



Im more concerned about not being racist than I am about lore that hasnt been touched in three editions.



If the product isn't good enough, it won't sell (or at least not sell enough to meet target numbers), no matter how "racially" sensitive the final work ends up being.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

538 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2021 :  09:01:41  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

I think I heard they hired a Romani sensitivity consultant.



Polishing the counter while the manor is aflame...talk about skewed priorities.



Im more concerned about not being racist than I am about lore that hasnt been touched in three editions.



If the product isn't good enough, it won't sell (or at least not sell enough to meet target numbers), no matter how "racially" sensitive the final work ends up being.



Ive got every reason to believe there will be at least a few entertaining ideas in a book containing 30 settings, and my friends who play 5e are excited by the player options; Curse of Strahd sold like gangbusters, so I fully expect this to do the same.

Sales are pretty much accounted for on any 5e book, and Im not too worried about Hasbros pocketbook anyway. But if its spouting the same dated nonsense that hurts real people like the old stuff did? Thats worth worrying about, to me.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6154 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2021 :  09:02:53  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

[quote]Originally posted by George Krashos

So, we know that the Romani people/culture suffer racism in the RW. The issue in the context of Ravenloft then must be that the original writers took a RW racism situation and transplanted it to the fictional milieu.

How does that work then in a more simplified situation? By that I mean skin colour. Is it inappropriate in your fictional campaign setting to have the dark-skinned Harathi race be the victims of racism?

To be clear, I'm not playing devil's advocate here or looking to push any agenda it might be implied that I have in delving into the topic. I really want to know where that line is.

-- George Krashos


Any work involving skin color-based racism is in conversation with the same issue in real life, whether they want it to be or not; I note that your example here assumes dark skin being discriminated against, which means your fictional world is assuming a lighter skin-based default - so I might ask, why default to white supremacy?



What if you are writing in a world where that dark-skin racism is a "historical fact" in the published products. Is it okay to replicate it and be true to the published information while making it clear that the historical event was driven by racism?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5537 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2021 :  09:50:38  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message
As far as I'm concerned, in fiction almost anything goes. You aren't glorifying it or saying it's okay, you are using it as part of an established history to drive or support a particular narrative.

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Wendolyn
Seeker

52 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2021 :  11:16:21  Show Profile Send Wendolyn a Private Message
I'm no expert on the subject, but I think it is key to distinguish between portraying racism in your world versus normalizing/glorifying racism in your world as keftiu said. Slavery is a social evil, like racism, and is quite prevalent in the Forgotten Realms, but I think it is pretty consistently portrayed as a bad thing. (The heroes are often fighting slavers, rescuing slaves, etc.). A world where there is widespread racism, but it is shown like slavery to be bad, I think is okay.

The problems I think can occur if you are more ambivalent if racism is good or bad your fantasy world. And then if on top of that, the marginalized groups in your world resemble real-world groups (like the Romani) that have suffered due to racism, then it is starting to look pretty insensitive, to say the least.

If you want to have racism exist in your fantasy world, I think that can be done in a unproblematic way. I don't anyone has an issue with N.K. Jemisin's Broken Earth trilogy where she has widespread prejudice towards a subgroup (Orogenes) in her fantasy world. But you need to be careful to make sure you aren't, intentionally or not, reifying real-world stereotypes and contributing to the stigmatization of real-world marginalized groups.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1309 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2021 :  01:32:06  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message
The entire problem with the Romani and Vistani is that the Vistani aren't based on the Romani ethnicity, they're based on the followers of the Romanipen code. Americans generally don't get it, but Europeans - Eastern Europeans in particular - generally can differentiate the two.

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keftiu
Senior Scribe

538 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2021 :  01:49:38  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

The entire problem with the Romani and Vistani is that the Vistani aren't based on the Romani ethnicity, they're based on the followers of the Romanipen code. Americans generally don't get it, but Europeans - Eastern Europeans in particular - generally can differentiate the two.





No, the Vistani are based on European caricatures of the Romani people played straight - and your response reads an awful lot like thats how they really are! which is racist nonsense.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1309 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2021 :  04:06:17  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message
Keftiu, the real-life practicioners of Romanipen are walking caricatures. Screaming 'racist' at something because it's decreed racist doesn't actually help when real-life practicioners of Romanipen work like a cross between the mafia and something out of Borat.

To people who have actually dealt with Romanipen, claims of 'racist' comes off as disturbingly ignorant especially when the Romanipen are generally a European phenomenon, not an American one.
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

538 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2021 :  04:52:24  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Keftiu, the real-life practicioners of Romanipen are walking caricatures. Screaming 'racist' at something because it's decreed racist doesn't actually help when real-life practicioners of Romanipen work like a cross between the mafia and something out of Borat.

To people who have actually dealt with Romanipen, claims of 'racist' comes off as disturbingly ignorant especially when the Romanipen are generally a European phenomenon, not an American one.



My Romani friends who came to America to escape persecution because of the exact rhetoric youre spouting?

Get your head out of your ass.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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