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John Daker
Seeker

USA
66 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2021 :  14:58:37  Show Profile Send John Daker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by John Daker
Yes, that is Elminster's Candlekeep Compendium, and it's pretty great. I don't know whether any of the contributors to that release (including Ed Greenwood!) have also worked on Candlekeep Mysteries, but I did take the liberty of contacting the cartographer who made the map for that release; he said he was not involved in the new book, so the poster map in the upcoming WotC book is going to be different from the map in ECC.



In some ways, that does kind of suck, in that I feel for the folks that may have poured some blood, sweat, and tears into that product only to have it possibly overwritten.



If Candlekeep Mysteries does turn out to contradict Elminsterís Candlekeep Compendium in any significant way, then (unless Iím forgetting something) that would make ECC the highest-profile DMís Guild product to date to be overwritten canonically by a later WotC release.

It would be unfortunate if this does happen, though itís hard to imagine WotC changing anything at all in their book to fit a DMís Guild product, even one with Edís direct involvement. Perhaps the creators of ECC would revise on their end to resolve discrepancies, if this can be done quickly and easily.

Edited by - John Daker on 15 Jan 2021 14:59:18
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6154 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2021 :  04:56:30  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Was always bound to happen. There was talk early on that WotC would be monitoring the DMs Guild for quality content with a view to adopting some/all of it and giving it the "official" imprimatur. I'm not aware of that happening even once. The Candlekeep product at the Guild was pretty good, so I can well imagine that its creators would be a bit glum about the prospect of their hard work being invalidated and/or unrecognised. It's happened to me and it's not fun.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34710 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2021 :  05:31:31  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Was always bound to happen. There was talk early on that WotC would be monitoring the DMs Guild for quality content with a view to adopting some/all of it and giving it the "official" imprimatur. I'm not aware of that happening even once.


I also thought it might be a way for them to scout talent... Has anyone that started on the DM's Guild gotten to work on an official WotC product?

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

538 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2021 :  06:09:02  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Was always bound to happen. There was talk early on that WotC would be monitoring the DMs Guild for quality content with a view to adopting some/all of it and giving it the "official" imprimatur. I'm not aware of that happening even once.


I also thought it might be a way for them to scout talent... Has anyone that started on the DM's Guild gotten to work on an official WotC product?



A number of this bookís contributors, I believe.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Renin
Learned Scribe

USA
272 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2021 :  15:39:56  Show Profile Send Renin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Was always bound to happen. There was talk early on that WotC would be monitoring the DMs Guild for quality content with a view to adopting some/all of it and giving it the "official" imprimatur. I'm not aware of that happening even once.


I also thought it might be a way for them to scout talent... Has anyone that started on the DM's Guild gotten to work on an official WotC product?



A number of this bookís contributors, I believe.



Actually, not a one, unless there are more writers that I didn't see when checking out the ECC. If I was greatly mistaken, then I rescind my comment.

Edited by - Renin on 26 Jan 2021 21:05:27
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

538 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2021 :  03:53:13  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Renin

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Was always bound to happen. There was talk early on that WotC would be monitoring the DMs Guild for quality content with a view to adopting some/all of it and giving it the "official" imprimatur. I'm not aware of that happening even once.


I also thought it might be a way for them to scout talent... Has anyone that started on the DM's Guild gotten to work on an official WotC product?



A number of this bookís contributors, I believe.



Actually, not a one, unless there are more writers that I didn't see when checking out the ECC. If I was greatly mistaken, then I rescind my comment.



Alison Huang wrote on Uncaged, the acclaimed feminist adventure anthology. I donít have the rest of the list in front of me, but I believe thereís a few more.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Renin
Learned Scribe

USA
272 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2021 :  21:00:40  Show Profile Send Renin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wait, I misread.

I was looking at the writers names that worked on the DMs guild Candlekeep product with Ed's name, and the new Candlekeep Mysteries. There are no crossover names between those 2 books;I had read into the posts that this was what was being asked.
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

538 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2021 :  05:47:22  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Anyone picked this up yet?

Iíve heard Daniel Kwanís adventure is outstanding.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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John Daker
Seeker

USA
66 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2021 :  11:49:48  Show Profile Send John Daker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Iíll be picking it up on the release dateónext Monday.
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

538 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2021 :  00:00:55  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Itís out!

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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John Daker
Seeker

USA
66 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2021 :  19:44:47  Show Profile Send John Daker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I haven't had a chance to get to the game store this week to pick up my copy of Candlekeep Mysteries, but I saw an image of the poster map online and was delighted to see that Mike Schley's map conforms precisely (even in its colors) to the wonderful map by Marco Bernardini in Elminster's Candlekeep Compendium. They're essentially the same map in two different styles and with two different perspectives, Bernardini's top-down and Schley's three-quarters. This makes me very happy!
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

538 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2021 :  19:33:59  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
POCGamer saying the adventure he contributed had major cuts and changes that he not only didnít authorize, but was never even told about, is a terrible look for WotC: https://twitter.com/pocgamer/status/1373847320370970626?s=21

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34710 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2021 :  20:25:02  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

POCGamer saying the adventure he contributed had major cuts and changes that he not only didnít authorize, but was never even told about, is a terrible look for WotC: https://twitter.com/pocgamer/status/1373847320370970626?s=21



Can't check the Twitter link from work... But was his the only adventure that was treated like that?

And sadly, this is not the first time WotC has pulled a "hey, surprise!" thing like that. Brian R James was quite surprised with the new entries at the end of the Grand History of the Realms -- he found out about them when someone got the book and asked about it.

Not saying this forgives WotC's current behavior or that it is any kind of acceptable -- just saying they have a history of doing things like that, and a longer history of not properly respecting their content creators.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

538 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2021 :  20:27:13  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

POCGamer saying the adventure he contributed had major cuts and changes that he not only didnít authorize, but was never even told about, is a terrible look for WotC: https://twitter.com/pocgamer/status/1373847320370970626?s=21



Can't check the Twitter link from work... But was his the only adventure that was treated like that?

And sadly, this is not the first time WotC has pulled a "hey, surprise!" thing like that. Brian R James was quite surprised with the new entries at the end of the Grand History of the Realms -- he found out about them when someone got the book and asked about it.

Not saying this forgives WotC's current behavior or that it is any kind of acceptable -- just saying they have a history of doing things like that, and a longer history of not properly respecting their content creators.



I havenít heard it from any of the others, but it wouldnít surprise me.

For those who canít see the thread: a ton of lore on Chult and the specific surroundings of the adventure was stripped out, and apparently they changed his depiction of the Grippli (which was more nuanced) into calling them ďprimitives.Ē Itís a pretty bad look.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

538 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2021 :  20:44:07  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:

I'm still processing what happened to my adventure in #CandlekeepMysteries. The "PanzerCut" of the adventure is 7187 words, and includes a much larger description of the Grippli, player race data for them, and locations and items that were removed from the final version. #DnD

The key story is different and more detailed, the World Serpent is involved, the Grippli have culture... And the word "primitive" doesn't appear ONCE IN THE WHOLE TEXT AS A DESCRIPTOR OF ANYTHING.

My Adventure:
Ancient gods stirring from their slumber bring the ancient past to the modern day, imperiling the local Grippli village as factions of Yuan-ti battle.

Edited/Developed Adventure:
Primitive frog people need rescue by players, Yuan-ti are evil because evil.

The worst part of this, THE WORST, is that I gave false impressions to interviewers leading up to the release of the adventure because I hadn't seen it and assumed that most of the story and conceptualization made it through the process because I hadn't heard anything otherwise.

I literally talked up the connections to the Days of Thunder, to the deeper lore in the game. Then when it was released, I doubled down, not having fully read it. I feel like a ****ing tool. Now my name is attached to something using the colonialist language I hate.

More perspective:

PzCut Draft: 7137 words (player stats incl.)
Final Draft: 6969 words (no player stats)
Released Copy: 5686 words (D&D Beyond)

So just shy of 1300 words were edited out to make space for "primitive" as a descriptor.

Correction, 7187 words in the PzCut. The point remains though.

This is just... ****. The bar was so goddamn low.


4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34710 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2021 :  21:29:02  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yikes, that does sound bad.

And that does suck -- not only the colonial language, but it sounds like he'd done something interesting with the grippli, something that I personally would have liked to have read.

It does bring to mind, though, one of my biggest complaints about the current design directive at WotC: no lore unless it directly supports an adventure -- and maybe not even then.

Granted, my complaint is far different from the author's -- I'm not a member of any minority groups, and while I can appreciate that this was another bad move on WotC's part, my frame of reference is different and it doesn't have the same visceral impact on me that it would have on the author or any PoC readers of the same content.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

538 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2021 :  21:59:50  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Yikes, that does sound bad.

And that does suck -- not only the colonial language, but it sounds like he'd done something interesting with the grippli, something that I personally would have liked to have read.

It does bring to mind, though, one of my biggest complaints about the current design directive at WotC: no lore unless it directly supports an adventure -- and maybe not even then.

Granted, my complaint is far different from the author's -- I'm not a member of any minority groups, and while I can appreciate that this was another bad move on WotC's part, my frame of reference is different and it doesn't have the same visceral impact on me that it would have on the author or any PoC readers of the same content.



The main thrust of why this stings is that this author has been a vocal critic of how the Realms has handled black representation and its African-equivalent cultures. A major push for this book in particular was to bring on diverse voices, and hiring him for it is a pretty clear ďwe want to be better about representation!Ē move... so tossing out a ton of his work, adding colonialist terminology without his consent, and not communicating any of this looks really, really bad.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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deserk
Learned Scribe

Norway
150 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2021 :  22:44:04  Show Profile Send deserk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
His version of the adventure sounded much more interesting and nuanced than the published one, especially since he made an effort at weaving it in with FR's lore and past. And I am definitely keen to see more humanizing depictions of the various "monster" races of FR.

It would have been nice if WotC could just released the cut material (particularly with products that have been heavily cut down) as a downloadable errata document, like they did with some 3rd edition products way back.

Edited by - deserk on 22 Mar 2021 22:46:45
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

538 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2021 :  23:16:21  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Heís just now said that he talked to some people at WotC, who informed him that they own the draft he sent in, and that heís asked his name to be removed from all future printings of the book.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34710 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2021 :  02:30:05  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

Heís just now said that he talked to some people at WotC, who informed him that they own the draft he sent in, and that heís asked his name to be removed from all future printings of the book.



The first part was anticipated. Ed has said similar things, more than once.

I doubt they'll bother with the second part. It's effort that doesn't generate any return for them.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2577 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2021 :  03:54:46  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


It does bring to mind, though, one of my biggest complaints about the current design directive at WotC: no lore unless it directly supports an adventure -- and maybe not even then.




Yeah, WotC has sadly taken the "eww, lore. It may interfere with game experience".

But this is the first I am hearing this in regards to Candlekeep Mysteries (haven't bought the book yet), and this is, as you said, yikes. WotC keeps saying they want to erase any "racist or colonist language--even putting disclaimers on their older material--yet they completely change what someone wrote, making things worse? Wow.

Sweet water and light laughter
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6154 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2021 :  11:21:57  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It appears to me that he was more upset that his grand vision for the adventure got butchered but the "primitive" thing (two uses of that word in his adventure as far as I have heard) gave him his "voice" to communicate his discontent. Welcome to the world of the dissatisfied with RPG writing and publishing. The queue is a long one.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 23 Mar 2021 22:12:50
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

538 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2021 :  19:05:41  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

It appears to me that he was more upset that his grand vision for the adventure got butchered but the "primitive" thing (two uses of that word in his adventure from what I have read) gave him his "voice" to communicate his discontent. Welcome to the world of the dissatisfied with RPG writing and publishing. The queue is a long one.

-- George Krashos



I mean, if you set out to make an adventure that hopes to untangle itself from D&Dís long history of colonialist rhetoric and the editors instead lean into that harder on something with your name on it... wouldnít you be pissed? Why hire him at that point?

This is now the second instance in recent memory of WotC hiring a black fan who is an outspoken critic and then not letting them do their thing, which makes me wonder why they keep doing it.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6154 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2021 :  21:39:50  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

It appears to me that he was more upset that his grand vision for the adventure got butchered but the "primitive" thing (two uses of that word in his adventure from what I have read) gave him his "voice" to communicate his discontent. Welcome to the world of the dissatisfied with RPG writing and publishing. The queue is a long one.

-- George Krashos



I mean, if you set out to make an adventure that hopes to untangle itself from D&Dís long history of colonialist rhetoric and the editors instead lean into that harder on something with your name on it... wouldnít you be pissed? Why hire him at that point?

This is now the second instance in recent memory of WotC hiring a black fan who is an outspoken critic and then not letting them do their thing, which makes me wonder why they keep doing it.



From all reports he is everything you say, and obviously a major FR geek. Other authors have chimed in to say that the design brief was not to add any new gaming rules or to change existing FR lore - he clearly did not follow the design brief. I personally think he went rogue. If you look at his original Twitter post he self-edited his first draft to remove 100-something words. In other words, a paragraph. I think at that time the folks at WotC realised that he was too attached to his magnum opus and edited it - dispassionately. The addition of the two instances of "primitive" were just the platform he needed to vent his frustration about what had been done to "his adventure". Lucky for him, otherwise what could he have said to the world ...?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 23 Mar 2021 22:11:39
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6154 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2021 :  22:12:42  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

It appears to me that he was more upset that his grand vision for the adventure got butchered but the "primitive" thing (two uses of that word in his adventure from what I have read) gave him his "voice" to communicate his discontent. Welcome to the world of the dissatisfied with RPG writing and publishing. The queue is a long one.

-- George Krashos



I mean, if you set out to make an adventure that hopes to untangle itself from D&Dís long history of colonialist rhetoric and the editors instead lean into that harder on something with your name on it... wouldnít you be pissed? Why hire him at that point?

This is now the second instance in recent memory of WotC hiring a black fan who is an outspoken critic and then not letting them do their thing, which makes me wonder why they keep doing it.



From all reports he is everything you say, and obviously a major FR geek. Other authors have chimed in to say that the design brief was not to add any new gaming rules or to change existing FR lore - he clearly did not follow the design brief. I personally think he went rogue. If you look at his original Twitter post he self-edited his first draft to remove 100-something words. In other words, a paragraph. I think at that time the folks at WotC realised that he was too attached to his magnum opus and edited its - dispassionately. The addition of the two instances of "primitive" were just the platform he needed to vent his frustration about what had been done to "his adventure". Lucky for him, otherwise what could he have said to the world ...?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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