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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1412 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  17:58:02  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Irennan,

It definitely seems like the issue with Vhaeraun makes a lot of sense in the no longer fighting, without an alliance. He is all about hating on anything he might see as pushing the matriarchy. His tendencies with rebellion, and of course trickery as a part of it, are enough to make me think it is just trickery.

Best regards,




Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2524 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  18:32:25  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan



Ed says Eilistraee and Vhaeraun no longer fight, but there isn't a true alliance. Of course, they could easily coopearate in stirring the drow and opening their eyes to the kind of fraud that Lolth is.



No true alliance? Huh. I seem to remember him saying in an interview they were actually allied. I may have to go back and watch that interview again.

Sweet water and light laughter
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1412 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  22:02:17  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader CorellonsDevout,

Do you know which interview? I would like to watch that for that reason as well.

Best regards,



Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3294 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  22:11:11  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader Irennan,

It definitely seems like the issue with Vhaeraun makes a lot of sense in the no longer fighting, without an alliance. He is all about hating on anything he might see as pushing the matriarchy. His tendencies with rebellion, and of course trickery as a part of it, are enough to make me think it is just trickery.

Best regards,




His core concept is more about being a drow supremacist that wants the drow to rule Faerun and other races to submit to them. That's the main source of incompatibility with Eilistraee, who strives not only to build a home of the drow on the surface, but is big on Cosmopolitanism and freedom fo expression.

Their main contrast is: get the drow a place in the world by conquering (Vhaeraun) vs get the drow a plance in the world through building and achieving reciprocal understanding with other people.

There are also many more differences; for example, in their approach towards the drow. Vhaeraun still appeals to their thirst of power, and promises them what Lolth does, but that her method makes impossible to achieve. Eilistraee appeals to their need to rediscover the beauty and joy of life they were robbed of, as well as working as a motherly fighure who empowers them to find their own path and fulfilment.

These are two big reasons why their stances are ultimately incompatible. His conflict with Eilistraee has historically never been about matriarchy or stuff regarding her female clergy (until Smedman/Athans *intentionally*--due to WotC's stance towards Eilitraee in relation to their idea of what the drow and Drizzt should be--took a massive dump on the character and lore of 30 years in their now retconned drow novels). There's even less reason for the conflict to be about that currently, because Eilistraee has learned how to have male priests.

Ed explained this design. Long story short, Eilistraee had troubles having male priests, because Ed had envisioned her as tied to motherhood and female fertility, and males found difficult fully cleave to her. In short, Eilistraee's nature acted as an obstacle to them becoming priests. Eilistraee actively tried to overcome this and allow male priests; it started with a particular ritual and ended with the clergy being fully open on males. Said ritual allowed male priests to temporary become female, and gain insight to cleave more fully to the Dark Maiden, and achieve the same understanding female priestesses had of her nature. An interesting fact is that the ritual was needed for males to get to mid-high levels, but not to become priests. This means that males could already become priests, but the difficulty arising from Eilistraee's nature kept them at low levels without the ritual. In the current era, the changedance is no longer needed, and men can just become priests.

Likewise, Vhaeraun's conflict with Lolth isn't merely about the matriarchy, it's mostly about Lolth's ways being intentionally designed to hamper the drow and keep them down for her to toy with. Since he wants the drow to actually become the powerhouse they were before the Crown Wars, Lolth's mindset has to go.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 15 Sep 2020 22:49:20
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3294 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  22:13:52  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan



Ed says Eilistraee and Vhaeraun no longer fight, but there isn't a true alliance. Of course, they could easily coopearate in stirring the drow and opening their eyes to the kind of fraud that Lolth is.



No true alliance? Huh. I seem to remember him saying in an interview they were actually allied. I may have to go back and watch that interview again.



Interesting. His post here on Candlekeep talks about a truce stemmed from a better reciprocal understanding, not an alliance. Even more so because he said that their followers can still skirmish on occasion.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2524 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  22:29:09  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here is the interview https://youtu.be/cLvAnSkyZXg I believe it is around the 10:49 mark that he starts talking about them. Being Ed, he presents it in a comcial manner lol, but they essentially have the same goals, they just clash on style.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 15 Sep 2020 23:13:40
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4475 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  22:40:19  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Here is the interview https://youtu.be/cLvAnSkyZXg. I believe it is around the 10:49 mark that he starts talking about them. Being Ed, he presents it in a comcial manner lol, but they essentially have the same goals, they just clash on style.



The same goals concerning Mother and Surface makes a truce, as to style of how to get there does not make an alliance. They do not agree on how to deal with surface dwellers for example.
She would provide aid to most other races, he would rob from most other races. Hard to be on the same page when from time to time defeating others actions.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2524 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  22:50:19  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fair point, but he has also made it sound as if they are allied. Maybe it is just a truce, but I was under the impression there was an alliance, too (I don't know how much Vhaeraun has changed--such as wanting drow to be supreme).

Sweet water and light laughter
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3294 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  22:59:57  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Here is the interview https://youtu.be/cLvAnSkyZXg.


The stop at the end of the link screws it up--not that it really matters, since you can just delete the stop. Just letting you know.

quote:
I believe it is around the 10:49 mark that he starts talking about them. Being Ed, he presents it in a comcial manner lol, but they essentially have the same goals, they just clash on style.



This is interesting for a single reason: if Ed says they have the same goal, and can even learn to trust each other at times, then it follows Vhaeraun no longer is a warmongering supremacist pushing the drow to become the superior race and everyone else to be enslaved to them--which used to be his end-game goal. It means Vhaeraun has, well, dramatically changed.

Previously, Vhaeraun's stance on slavery alone would have been enough to make Eilistraee and her followers go mad and fight, for example. A lot of the battles that saw a faction pitted against the other in Skullport were about freeing slaves.

If this no longer is the case, then Vhaeraun has seriously reconsidered his goal. Or Eilistraee hers, but from how Ed parodies them, it doesn't really look like that. Or well, it might just be that Vhaeraun is merely using the Eilistraeans for support, acting like he's changed, when in truth he hasn't.


To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 15 Sep 2020 23:03:44
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1412 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2020 :  00:40:10  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Readers Irennan and CorellonsDevout,

Wow, that was unexpected from that interview. It was absolutely an affirmation that Vhaeraun and Eilestree are allies: 100%.

The example of Vhaeraun being a John Wayne or Bruce Willis'esque character was the enormous surprise to me. I never took, from reading Vhaeraun, that that deity was like that, but you have it from the man himself, so there you go.

Thank you for that share Great Reader CorellonsDevout.

Best regards,


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2524 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2020 :  00:52:56  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lol I think the John Wayne/Bruce Willis comment was meant to imply that Vhaeraun and his followers are more no-nonsense and "macho" about how they handle things lol. If nothing else, the analogies were highly entertaining.

Sweet water and light laughter
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1412 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2020 :  05:56:02  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader CorellonsDevout,

I sort of figured that, but at the same time, it was hilarious. That was the last name drop I would have expected.

Best regards,



Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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deserk
Learned Scribe

Norway
126 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2020 :  16:45:35  Show Profile Send deserk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Though Vhaeraun and Eilistraee have obvious dogmatic differences, I honestly don't understand why their respective followers would waste lives and resources fighting each other (as depicted in the Wars of the Spider Queen book as well as Starlight and Shadows). Both religions have a precarious place in current drow society as well as on the surface, and there are scarce few places where they can worship their deities openly in the Underdark (much less so for Eilistraeeans). The prime enemy of both deities is Lolth, and she is the true subjugator of the drow (in their eyes) and I would think they would rather cooperate to an extent or ignore each other, rather than actively seek out to fight the enemy of their enemy.

And on that interview I'm not sure I would also take Ed's word literally here regarding an alliance between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun either. He may be speaking as an unreliable narrator when he talks about this since the actual affairs of the gods isn't really something most mortals would know about or completely comprehend. I would interpret his words as meaning that in the current timeline there is a common trend among the clergy of each faiths to cooperate, since Eilistraee's temporary absorption of Vhaeraun in the War of the Spider Queen books, where many Vhaeraunite priests were absorbed into the clergy of Eilistraee under her aspect as the Masked Lady. But now that they are separate deities again, I can't imagine them being true allies, since Vhaeraun has completely different vision for the drow in the surface than Eilistraee has. So there must have been a real radical shift between both deities to allow that, if that is actually the case (has either Vhaeraun or Eilistraee shifted to become Chaotic Neutral?). Either Eilistraee would ignore and turn a blind eye to Vhaeraun's crusade against the surface (which would entail overlooking likely attacks and atrocities committed against surface races as well as their subjugation and enslavement), or Vhaeraun in the new timeline has different view of the surfacers or how his followers are to acquire a homeland in the land above.

Edited by - deserk on 16 Sep 2020 17:03:10
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4475 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2020 :  16:54:14  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I really did not see Eilistraee or her followers as hippys either. However was interesting to hear Ed speak.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3294 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2020 :  17:42:26  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deserk

Though Vhaeraun and Eilistraee have obvious dogmatic differences, I honestly don't understand why their respective followers would waste lives and resources fighting each other (as depicted in the Wars of the Spider Queen book as well as Starlight and Shadows). Both religions have a precarious place in current drow society as well as on the surface, and there are scarce few places where they can worship their deities openly in the Underdark (much less so for Eilistraeeans). The prime enemy of both deities is Lolth, and she is the true subjugator of the drow (in their eyes) and I would think they would rather cooperate to an extent or ignore each other, rather than actively seek out to fight the enemy of their enemy.


WotSQ and LP made no sense whatsoever lore-wise or character-wise, and have rightfully been retconned (not even ignored; WotC just pretends they were never written). In his lore, Vhaeraun is portrayed as willing to put differences aside when it comes fighting Lolth, and Eilistraee is explicitly stated to not be against him per se, but as even mourning his cruelty. Yet, Smedman/Athans have Vhaeraun target Eilistraee first, which is idiotic. As I said, a bunch novels that amount to nothing but BS in terms of lore and characterization.

In Starlight and Shadows the conflict isn't random. Vhaeraunites are slavers, and Eilistraeans oppose slavery in all its forms. The Eilistraeans weren't attacking the Vhaeraunites because they were Vhaeraunites, but because they were enslaving drow kids (in Starlights and Shadows) or whoever generally.

But really, if you--as followers of Eilistraee--work to build relationships with other races, to build comsopolitan communities and generally *create* a place for the drow in the surface world--and then the Vhaeraunites come and start enslaving people and pushing the idea of drow supremacy, your goals are at odds too, not just your methods.

I guess that ignoring each other (when possible) is what would work until Lolth is defeated, but an active alliance would require a very specific scenario--and that isn't trying to kill Lolth, not on its own.

The assumption that if they allied and killed Lolth things would be resolved makes no sense. Both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun acknowledge that the drow can only be free through a revolution against the Lolthite regime. For Vhaeraun, the drow must then only drop the infighting and sexism, but retain the supremacist attitude. For Eilistraee, they also need to learn the importance of compassion, nurturing, and healing. The revolution must not be against Lolth herself in the beginning, but against her institution, because:

1)the drow must be part of the solution to their problem (and Eilistraee is explicitly stated to acknowledge this in canon), so Eilistraee and Vhaeraun killing Lolth solves nothing. The drow wouldn't understand what's wrong, and:

2)if Lolth died, the various drow factions (like wizards, certain houses, merchant clans, etc...) would spiral in a series of aimless wars to fill the new power vacuum. There must be an adversary, so that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun can unify the efforts of different factions, which also allows them to exert some control on the situation after the war, and prevent the drow factions from spiraling in the above-mentioned series of conflicts once the Lolthite institution is dismantled. That adversary is the Lolthite clergy, which wouldn't be possible with Lolth dead from the beginning. Lolth will die off without faith after the ordeal anyway (and she should already be dead like that, if the worldbuilding of the drow cared to explore the consequences of its own premises even in the most superficial manner), or she can be killed once the revolution is already going.

This is one of the MANY reasons WotSQ is such a massive narrative failure.

quote:
And on that interview I'm not sure I would also take Ed's word literally here regarding an alliance between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun either. He may be speaking as an unreliable narrator when he talks about this since the actual affairs of the gods isn't really something most mortals would know about or completely comprehend. I would interpret his words as meaning that in the current timeline there is a common trend among the clergy of each faiths to cooperate, since Eilistraee's temporary absorption of Vhaeraun in the War of the Spider Queen books, where many Vhaeraunite priests were absorbed into the clergy of Eilistraee under her aspect as the Masked Lady. But now that they are separate deities again, I can't imagine them being true allies, since Vhaeraun has completely different vision for the drow in the surface than Eilistraee has. So there must have been a real radical shift between both deities to allow that, if that is actually the case (has either Vhaeraun or Eilistraee shifted to become Chaotic Neutral?). Either Eilistraee would ignore and turn a blind eye to Vhaeraun's crusade against the surface (which would entail overlooking likely attacks and atrocities committed against surface races as well as their subjugation and enslavement), or Vhaeraun in the new timeline has different view of the surfacers or how his followers are to acquire a homeland in the land above.



There wasn't a real absorption--as Ed said, Eilistraee merely took Vhaeraun's portfolio but spared him, while Mystra enclosed him in a dream in the Weave. The cooperation of the clergies wasn't a real cooperation either.

It's why I too was surprised by this being an actual alliance and not just a truce.

Ed did mention Vhaeraun being somewhat changed, in that he now encourages his followers to at least put up a facade of good citizens on the surface when it's beneficial (and that would include situations in which the Eilistraeans have already managed to gain a place for the drow in a surface area or a non-drow city/community, like in current Waterdeep). This is going to make the truce much easier to maintain, but from that to an alliance it's a big step.

That said, Ed didn't look like he was joking about the alliance itself, it sounds like they're actually working together.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 16 Sep 2020 17:49:21
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1412 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2020 :  18:38:42  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Kentinal,

Agreed. She is a free spirit, as is evidenced by her entry as a deity; however, what struck me is that when looking back to the days of the Ssri-tel-quessir, she was a very giving, loving, but focused deity with a very long game plan. She held back at a time knowing that she didn't have the power to go at it against the Dark Seldarine, and would have to advocate, slowly, but surely over a long period of time. Her plans, how she has implemented them, why, and all of that, just doesn't come across as hippy to me.

Just my take, for what it's worth.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

I really did not see Eilistraee or her followers as hippys either. However was interesting to hear Ed speak.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3294 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2020 :  19:42:46  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader Kentinal,

Agreed. She is a free spirit, as is evidenced by her entry as a deity; however, what struck me is that when looking back to the days of the Ssri-tel-quessir, she was a very giving, loving, but focused deity with a very long game plan. She held back at a time knowing that she didn't have the power to go at it against the Dark Seldarine, and would have to advocate, slowly, but surely over a long period of time. Her plans, how she has implemented them, why, and all of that, just doesn't come across as hippy to me.

Just my take, for what it's worth.

Best regards,




Nor Vhaeraun comes across as the Bruce Willis type. Ed most likely put that in lightherated terms, and he was talking more about the followers than the deities themselves.

Though Eilistraee didn't hold back at the days of the Ssri-Tel-Quessir. She actively opposed Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur in Ilythiir back when Lolth's cult wasn't a thing yet, but she was alone, and she was defeated and hunted away from Iltyhiir. It was only at that point that she started to play the long game: she took care of the other Ssri-Tel-Quessir of Faerun, kept looking after a few followers that she still had in Ilythiir, and then became patroness of Miyeritar.

Not that it mattered, since Aryvandaar magic-nuked Miyeritar, and Eilistraee lost all the power she had and her church collapsed because of that. She couldn't do anything when the drow were exiled and Lolth took over, though she kept rebuilding and reaching to the drow.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 16 Sep 2020 19:46:20
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3294 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2020 :  19:49:21  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Though, I must say that enjoying life and its beauty is not incompatible with being effective, at all.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1412 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2020 :  21:48:53  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Irennan,

Agreed again. I think if Ed intended for Eilestree to be a hippy god, there was enough written about her to get the hot, sexy, Dark Elf/Drow goddess that loves the good fun while at the same time can get her point across about wanting a better life and existence for her Elves.

It did seem rather off the cuff and lighthearted in thinking back on that interview again.

Best regards,



Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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