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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
641 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2019 :  01:43:07  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Apparently. He joined Zariel's invasion of Hell among her army from Elturel. Things didn't quite work out for him (or anyone from Elturel). Players have a chance to help save him.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4732 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2019 :  15:30:10  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cant say much about the adventure but the Gazette on baldurs gate is very detailed and the quality isn't bad either.

The big thing that doesn't work for me though is zariel leading the hell riders into avernus.

If I recall things correctly zariel invaded avernus, was made archdevil, was deposed by bel, and then replaced Bel.
So either this is a different Zariel, or it places the events in the 1300s very early in planar history.

As an alternative, perhaps Zariel was an arch devil when she led the hellriders into avernus (a ruse designed to acquire the souls of a hundred paladin - not really big enough for a devil though). Or Zariel was redeemed between her disposal by Bel and her reinstatement, lost her memory, led the Hellriders into Avernus, and was corrupted once again (a bit convoluted perhaps but maybe it was all part of a strategy to pull the entire city of elturel into avernus)

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Renin
Learned Scribe

188 Posts

Posted - 13 Oct 2019 :  15:03:22  Show Profile Send Renin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/496-live-from-the-descent-who-is-zariel

From this article on DND beyond, they look at her history, but this line rankled; "
While information from sourcebooks of earlier editions of D&D aren't non-canon per se, books from the current edition (like Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes) should be considered authoritative."

And

"Zariel had a few brief mentions throughout the life of 3rd edition D&D in the Manual of the Planes (2001) and Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells (2006), but even in these books, Zariel remained Bel's prisoner, and the beleaguered pit fiend remained master of Avernus. Now in fifth edition D&D, Zariel is back. It's unclear how exactly she was freed from Bel's clutches and regained her control over Avernus—or if this element of her story is still canon at all! It's possible that Zariel's imprisonment has been retconned out of existence, and now Bel's relationship to Zariel is merely one of a deposed archdevil allowed to remain her lieutenant."

So, she's whatever they want her to be.
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1383 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2019 :  00:06:37  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, back in 2017 they also said that all the novels are non-canon as well, unless they say otherwise. I guess, this means they have retconet all the storyline of D&D so far with a new one that they use for 5e (I suspected this when they retconed the story of the Raven Queen).

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32407 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2019 :  00:23:43  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, back in 2017 they also said that all the novels are non-canon as well, unless they say otherwise.


I do not recall them saying this, in regards to the Realms.

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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1383 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2019 :  00:42:18  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They were asked about Ravenloft, about some inconsistency between old novels and Curse of Strahd, but the answer was a general "Novels are of nebulous canonocity - not canon until we directly state as such" (Mike Mearls) or "I've been involved with D&D long enough to realize that what is "canonical" and what isn't changes on a whim and, ultimately, harms nothing" and "When it comes to D&D lore, we embrace things we like and discard things we don't. I can't unwrite something, but I can ignore it" (Chris Perkins).

Here are the sources:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/02/07/are-the-ravenloft-novels-considered-canon/
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/01/06/how-much-of-the-old-dd-ravenloft-novels-are-actually-considered-canon/


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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32407 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2019 :  02:56:17  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

They were asked about Ravenloft, about some inconsistency between old novels and Curse of Strahd, but the answer was a general "Novels are of nebulous canonocity - not canon until we directly state as such" (Mike Mearls) or "I've been involved with D&D long enough to realize that what is "canonical" and what isn't changes on a whim and, ultimately, harms nothing" and "When it comes to D&D lore, we embrace things we like and discard things we don't. I can't unwrite something, but I can ignore it" (Chris Perkins).

Here are the sources:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/02/07/are-the-ravenloft-novels-considered-canon/
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/01/06/how-much-of-the-old-dd-ravenloft-novels-are-actually-considered-canon/





Ah, so it was referring to Ravenloft novels, not Realms novels. Got it.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1383 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2019 :  17:09:21  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, if I'm reading this correctly, are Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul just demigods post-Second Sundering?

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5589 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2019 :  01:14:29  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

They were asked about Ravenloft, about some inconsistency between old novels and Curse of Strahd, but the answer was a general "Novels are of nebulous canonocity - not canon until we directly state as such" (Mike Mearls) or "I've been involved with D&D long enough to realize that what is "canonical" and what isn't changes on a whim and, ultimately, harms nothing" and "When it comes to D&D lore, we embrace things we like and discard things we don't. I can't unwrite something, but I can ignore it" (Chris Perkins).

Here are the sources:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/02/07/are-the-ravenloft-novels-considered-canon/
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/01/06/how-much-of-the-old-dd-ravenloft-novels-are-actually-considered-canon/





I was three-quarters of the way through posting on this and even creating a new topic in the General forum and then took a breath.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Renin
Learned Scribe

188 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2019 :  19:56:17  Show Profile Send Renin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You're a better man than I, George. That's why Hasbro simply doesn't get my money for DND anymore.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4732 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2019 :  20:58:09  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Give in, its been a while since we've had a good flame thread

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Seravin
Senior Scribe

Canada
959 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2019 :  21:16:38  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I know it's a bit off topic, but a consistent and cohesive lore in the shared world is what attracts me to the Realms and would keep me interested in future products. Throwing out past works and being wildly and willfully disrespectful of the established canon would cause me to totally disengage, and I'm sure many others. Star Wars got a huge backlash from The Last Jedi with its "kill the past" message and destruction of the old characters to usher in the new. I don't understand this "strategy" from marketing and content creators who inherit an established IP.
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