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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2010 :  01:31:56  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's pretty obvious that El is unlikely to fare well if he performs the magics himself, so (assuming such is at all possible) somebody else should be casting the necessary liching spells in El's stead. Apparently El doesn't sink into madness whenever magics are activated by/on him by means outside his own spellcasting. The question then becomes: is there some reason why El still doesn't qualify to lich?

[/Ayrik]
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2010 :  01:50:08  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arik

It's pretty obvious that El is unlikely to fare well if he performs the magics himself, so (assuming such is at all possible) somebody else should be casting the necessary liching spells in El's stead. Apparently El doesn't sink into madness whenever magics are activated by/on him by means outside his own spellcasting. The question then becomes: is there some reason why El still doesn't qualify to lich?

Hmmm. I'd assume only Ed could really answer that.

But if I had to speculate, I'd say that given the uncertainties of the arcane in the post-Spellplague period, the impact of the loss of the Weave, the absence of Mystra, and the general instabilities inherent in old El's state of mind [at times]... perhaps it's not really a question about whether he can qualify any more, but rather, would he want to?

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2010 :  02:00:48  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suppose an indomitable desire to live forever could be an essential component of liching up. Without this strong will (or desire) you might fail, ie: simply die.

[/Ayrik]
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2010 :  02:35:54  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arik

I suppose an indomitable desire to live forever could be an essential component of liching up. Without this strong will (or desire) you might fail, ie: simply die.

Another possibility occurs to me... largely from a re-reading of 1e's Lords of Darkness. [Note: Quoted material from aforementioned tome, appears in italics below.]

Maybe Elminster could, effectively, become a pseudo-lich. Pseudo-liches can "resemble real liches in all characteristics except energy draining and the possession of a phylactery." It's also said that they aren't affected by turning and can have offspring. Also, "They are created when a very powerful magic-user is fanatically pursuing a certain goal at the time of death." We know, from Elminster Must Die, that El was intensely curious about both the effects of the Spellplague upon himself and the Simbul. And his focus on maintaining the Simbul, I suppose, could also qualify as "fanatically pursuing a certain goal." Further, "Some inexplicable force, perhaps due to years of exposure to magic, allows the wizard's soul to inhabit the shell of its dead body until the goal is achieved or the body crumbles to dust." Or, perhaps, as a result of the Spellplague ravaging the body of an ancient Chosen of Mystra like Elminster. Hmmm.

As I said above, we really don't have any specific information on just how the Spellplague has affected the dynamics and nature of the powers of the [former] Chosen. So an exposure to such heavy arcane circumstances, coupled with El's consuming desire for magicks and his passion for the Simbul, could have saturated his soul, to the point of maintaining it after body-death.

Additionally, we're told that "Such pseudo-liches exist only 1d100 years beyond death, cannot successfully prepare for lichdom while in this state, and are entirely intent on their research or goal." Which could help to underline why somehow like Elminster would actually avoid the more nefarious lichnee process.

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Edited by - The Sage on 08 Dec 2010 02:38:14
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2010 :  03:09:37  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suppose only time will tell if El still retains some legacy of his (Mystra's) former powers ... it may simply be unnecessary for him to lich up because he's still unaging/immortal.

[/Ayrik]
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2010 :  03:38:26  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And your own musings Sage (on my musings) have lead to further musings of my own (we muse well together, don't we?)

Perhaps because of its nature, the Lich-like state of a Baelnorn is what something Fey-blooded can achieve. True (Feywild) Fay are immortal - something within the Feywild itself sustains them. Elves and Prime-Fey require some sort of connection to the Feywild to help maintain their own longevity (note the comparatively short lifespans of the Drow), but because they are still creatures native to the Prime Material they must eventually die.

So what if an Elf can 'tap-into' the natural immortality that true Fey have? This is why I think Baelnorn should be 'Undying' (positive-energy undead) - through some sort of ritual they received an immense burst of Radiant energy, which links to their core being (Fay) and allows them to 'go on', even after their mortal shell has perished.

Fay themselves are immortal, because they are really just 'spirits' (all outsiders technically are) - its not the Elf that dies, just his body. This is why some Elves have been able to prolong their natural lives way beyond the norm - by falling into a hibernation-like 'Deep Revery', they don't squander what little 'radiance' they have left.

So an Elf/Eladrin is supposed to be immortal, but the contamination of the Material world makes their physical forms give-out, at which time the ordinary thing to do would be to 'pass on to Arvandor'. With that infusion of Radiance (probably a divine/High magic Ritual), they 'jump-start' their bodies into lasting a time a longer.

I wonder if there is such a thing as a demi-Baelnorn (you know, like a demi-Lich, after even the mighty magics give out and the Liches body crumbles to dust).

And this post also made me realize that Elven High Magic is akin to Southern/Thayan magic - its more then likely that true Elven Magic combines divine and arcane magic (which explains how both Corellon and Thoth can still be 'gods of magic' in a Mystra-dominated world).

You know... I just had an interesting thought for the other fey thread...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Dec 2010 04:33:45
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2010 :  03:51:34  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I may be sorely mistaken here - but I recall, perhaps, a baelnorn requires sustenance from powerful magic (inside a mythal for instance) to continue existing?

I'll attempt to merge all this Elminster-lich chatter here, rather than splitting it between scrolls (this one and Elminster Must Die---Hit or Miss? - Page 7).

Also:
quote:
The Lady Herald in Questions for Ed Greenwood (2010) - Page 95
And hello again, everyone.
Sage, Ed dropped me a quick e-mail in response to your lichdom queries, and here it is:

Hoo boy. Thick NDAs looming all around on this one, but I can go far enough to say: Elminster is well aware of (and possesses the notes, spells, and necessary "ingredients"/apparatus for) many methods of attaining lichnee status, that he's acquired and studied over the years. Thus far he has actively dabbled in none of them, and that's due in part to the silver fire and active Weave flows and use not mixing well with lichdom. Which is where I'd best stop spilling beans for now . . .

So saith Ed. Who has obviously worked all of this out and communicated it with designers working at TSR (and possibly, later, at WotC), but just as obviously isn't free to share much more.
Yet.
Heh-heh.
love,
THO

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Dec 2010 04:16:31
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2010 :  04:55:56  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arik

I may be sorely mistaken here - but I recall, perhaps, a baelnorn requires sustenance from powerful magic (inside a mythal for instance) to continue existing?
Yes. Baelnorn are sustained by magic.
quote:
I'll attempt to merge all this Elminster-lich chatter here, rather than splitting it between scrolls (this one and Elminster Must Die---Hit or Miss? - Page 7).

Also:
quote:
The Lady Herald in Questions for Ed Greenwood (2010) - Page 95
And hello again, everyone.
Sage, Ed dropped me a quick e-mail in response to your lichdom queries, and here it is:

Hoo boy. Thick NDAs looming all around on this one, but I can go far enough to say: Elminster is well aware of (and possesses the notes, spells, and necessary "ingredients"/apparatus for) many methods of attaining lichnee status, that he's acquired and studied over the years. Thus far he has actively dabbled in none of them, and that's due in part to the silver fire and active Weave flows and use not mixing well with lichdom. Which is where I'd best stop spilling beans for now . . .

So saith Ed. Who has obviously worked all of this out and communicated it with designers working at TSR (and possibly, later, at WotC), but just as obviously isn't free to share much more.
Yet.
Heh-heh.
love,
THO


And with respect to this, I'm more inclined, now, to believe my theory about a human-baelnorn form has further grounding in the lore. We know El's studied and acquired components involved in many lichnee processes. Now, couple that with the fact that El also studied under the Srinshee, a baelnorn of particular power and spirit, and I wouldn't at all be surprised if the Sage of Shadowdale has either adapted such knowledge for himself [or would, should it become necessary], or at least thought about the possibilities of applying what he learned from the Srinshee, to the human [Chosen] form.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2010 :  05:02:00  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Srinshee is a baelnorn*? I believe the earliest lore described her as a banshee, or perhaps even a unique spectre or ghost.

* The FR wiki page says baelnorn. I'm gonna look it up in my ancient lore.

[/Ayrik]
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2010 :  05:25:38  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arik

Srinshee is a baelnorn*? I believe the earliest lore described her as a banshee, or perhaps even a unique spectre or ghost.

* The FR wiki page says baelnorn. I'm gonna look it up in my ancient lore.

She was both a Wardnorn [of the Vault of Ages] and a Lorenorn [for the armathors and Court Magi], which are specialised types of baelnorn, as noted in Cormanthyr.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2010 :  05:58:02  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Indeed she was- until partway through Elminster in Myth Drannor. Now she is mortal again.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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