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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2018 :  01:51:36  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
After getting ~150 pages into City of Splendors, I accidentally left it at work on Friday, heading into a 3-day holiday weekend. I wasn't about to go 4 nights without a book (Fri,Sat,Sun,Mon), so I skipped a bit ahead in my order and found another anthology - Realms of the Elves. How perfect, as I just finished the Mythal series! I found this to be a rather good collection.

Traitors - Richard Lee Byers - an interesting story and also an ancient history lesson, when dragons ruled all and elves (and men) were just vassals, begging for table scraps. This story, I believe, marks one of the first times a humanoid successfully defeats a dragon, probably a watershed moment in Realms history, when it all started to change.

The Staff of Valmaxian - Phil Athans - normally I'm not a fan of his work, but this story was one of his better offerings. He did a good job showing the arrogance and obsession with power from the main character. I'm not sure I liked the ending though, this guy felt way too far past redemption to me for him to experience his salvation.

Necessary Sacrifices - Lisa Smedman - the more I read from her, the more I can forgive her for her mishandling of Eilistraee in the WOTSQ series (though I may reserve the right to change that once I get to the Lady Penitent series!) In this story we see a small strike team dedicated to a god I hadn't heard of - Shevarash. Smedman does vengeance very well (even when it's not warranted), so this was right in her wheelhouse. I really bought into the protagonist's change of heart at the very end, and was somewhat touched by the final confrontation, where his companions are so consumed by hate that they act more drowlike than a drow. Very well done!

The Greater Treasure - Erik Scott de Bie - I'm still getting used to this author, I think I've only read one other short by him thus far. He seems to really enjoy word play and clever phrasing. At times I smile and mentally congratulate him on some witticism or another. At other times I find it a bit smug :P As for the actual story - it was a pretty good tale with a satisfying double-cross at the end. I got such a Raistlin vibe from Cythara though, I wonder if that was intentional or subconscious?

Comrades at Odds - RA Salvatore - at first I couldn't tell if this was a story about Obould's orcs and the potential of them forming something akin to a civilized society, or about recovering Ellifane's body for burial amongst her people. I didn't realize until well into it that RAS was subtly and cleverly interweaving the two subjects - showing how hatred and preconceived notions can be WAY off, and that we should always try to keep an open mind. Innovindil, who had completely scoffed at Drizzt's theory initially, eventually began to at least consider it, using Ellifane's blind hatred as an example of how anger can block us from considering alternate possibilities. I'm a big RAS fan for the most part, but I think he struggles with the short story format most of the time (which he freely admits himself). This might've been his best work since the utterly brilliant Dark Mirror, which was, for my money, the best Realms short to date, and amongst my favorite short stories in any setting or genre.

Tears So White - Ed Greenwood - I feel like a broken record every time I review an EG work. His ideas are wonderful but his execution drives me nuts. The characters always finish fighting off a wave of bad guys, get in one or two snarky comments, and then are immediately under siege again. And every encounter has a dizzying myriad of spell effects going off, things flashing, blinking, forming, sundering, changing hues, etc. If a movie were ever made on any of his stories, it would be a CGI-laden affair that would probably give us all epileptic seizures. There are always 2,000 things going on at any one time. I thought Jhessail summed it up perfectly about midway through this story when she said, "Will someone please tell me what's going on?" Add on to that EG's usual proclivity to pile on numbers to a ridiculous degree. The Simbul alone destroyed "nigh on a hundred liches" by herself, not counting the others dispatched by Florin, Jhess, and Merith, and the mysterious automatons, who I still don't know why they appeared there or who sent them? This story reminded me a lot of the Shandril saga; where uncounted hordes of Zhent archmages, beholders, dragons, and dracoliches were slain in rapid succession. I don't think Greenwood understands the concept that less is sometimes more. I know it was Larloch pulling the strings and all, but he can lose ~150 liches in an afternoon and it doesn't make a difference? Just like the Zhents and Cult of the Dragon can have high level operative after operative slain and the beat just rolls on with no lasting effects. This story was frustrating. Just one day later and I can't even remember what the Tshadarnna were all about. They're probably a really cool bit of lore, but this story was such a chore that I now can't recall their purpose.

The Bladesinger's Lesson - Richard Baker - man, is this guy on a tear or what? After the brilliant mythal trilogy, he adds on a side-story from the perspective of one member of the Crusade. There are thousands of such tales buried within every major conflict, and I love it when authors take a random footsoldier or whatever and tell us their story. I thought I was really going to hate this arrogant elf, but his outrage was justified, and he was able to master his anger and end up being a pretty likeable guy by the end. I don't know if Nilsa was a half elf or quarter elf, I wonder if any readers at the time (2006) had issues with the moonblade activating for her. Really good story, and just when I thought I was done with the whole daemon'fey storyline, I get pulled back in for another gem.

Ok, back to City of Splendors. I'll try not to leave it at work for another weekend.




Edited by - VikingLegion on 23 Feb 2018 01:56:49
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6641 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2018 :  07:32:22  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There was a whole thread here re The Bladesinger's Lesson and many people were unhappy with the use of the Moonblade in the short story. I recall I came up with a theory that the Moonblades, having fulfilled their first purpose of selecting the ruler of Evermeet, had now "moved on" and adopted different individual purposes thereby allowing more flexibility in relation to what they were and what they could now do. I recall that Elaine Cunningham wasn't a fan of my theory!

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2018 :  13:56:57  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

There was a whole thread here re The Bladesinger's Lesson and many people were unhappy with the use of the Moonblade in the short story. I recall I came up with a theory that the Moonblades, having fulfilled their first purpose of selecting the ruler of Evermeet, had now "moved on" and adopted different individual purposes thereby allowing more flexibility in relation to what they were and what they could now do. I recall that Elaine Cunningham wasn't a fan of my theory!

-- George Krashos



I absolutely have to search out that thread and read it, it sounds like it will be massively entertaining :)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2018 :  14:13:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

There was a whole thread here re The Bladesinger's Lesson and many people were unhappy with the use of the Moonblade in the short story. I recall I came up with a theory that the Moonblades, having fulfilled their first purpose of selecting the ruler of Evermeet, had now "moved on" and adopted different individual purposes thereby allowing more flexibility in relation to what they were and what they could now do. I recall that Elaine Cunningham wasn't a fan of my theory!

-- George Krashos



I remember that.

I think your explanation was the best way out, though, and even without having to explain that mess, I think the re-purposing of moonblades after Zaor's selection is a good idea.

I also seem to recall Rich Baker admitting that when he wrote that short story, he was unaware of the lore that MOONblades were for MOON elves. It's one of the many reasons I am not a fan of Rich Baker, in regards to his handling of Realmslore.

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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2018 :  02:43:49  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I picked up the Last Mythal trilogy and have to say I didn’t love it. In no way would Devils and Demons cooperate. Just wouldn’t happen. The books did a piss poor job of explaining why they would cooperate because a sun elf wanted them too.

Basically Zhentil Keep had full control of the Moonsea Ride for a few years then Maalthir returned and took over again undoing the events of the trilogy. Also the Shade became the big bad guys and destroyed Zhentil Keep and the CotR and Fzoul was killed, so Maalthir got the last laugh. (Until he died trying to become a Lich 80 years later off camera).

Anyway didn’t love the series or the characters or the “plot” that mythals can just be used for whatever the plot needs. Just should’ve had demons alone, not devils as the summoned help.

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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2018 :  14:37:52  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

I picked up the Last Mythal trilogy and have to say I didn’t love it. In no way would Devils and Demons cooperate. Just wouldn’t happen. The books did a piss poor job of explaining why they would cooperate because a sun elf wanted them too.

Anyway didn’t love the series or the characters or the “plot” that mythals can just be used for whatever the plot needs. Just should’ve had demons alone, not devils as the summoned help.





Yep. That whole devils/demons cooperation was easily my biggest gripe, and I think I addressed it in at least two of my reviews, if not all 3. Not sure what you mean about the sun elf though. Malkizid is a fallen solar/archdevil. He was kicked out of Hell by Asmodeus and setup shop with the yugoloths (they call it the Blood Rift, I'll always go with the 2e Gray Waste of Hades). Malkizid "ordered" his devil minions to play nice with the demons. Yeah, it's still flimsy and I can't buy into it... Ughh, it's still hard.

Unlike you though, I thought the series itself, that one glaring exception excluded, was very good. And I'm no mythal scholar, but aren't they something like a huge battery of magical energy that is shaped by the archmages of the city to benefit them in the way they choose? Meaning, the mythals of Myth Glaurach and Myth Drannor won't necessarily be the same. One city might deem that warm weather and permanent featherfall effects for all is the way to go, while another city's mythal might have an effect that stunts the growth of weeds and inhibits the spread of fire. If you're arguing that a mythal is irrevocably "set" upon its creation and is not a malleable thing, that's probably a fair point. Did you dislike the way Sarya and Araevin were able to sculpt and/or thread in new effects or alterations? They were using elven High Magic, guided by Malkizid (in Sarya's case) or the selukiira (in Araevin's case).
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2018 :  14:44:27  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

I picked up the Last Mythal trilogy and have to say I didn’t love it. In no way would Devils and Demons cooperate. Just wouldn’t happen. The books did a piss poor job of explaining why they would cooperate because a sun elf wanted them too.

Anyway didn’t love the series or the characters or the “plot” that mythals can just be used for whatever the plot needs. Just should’ve had demons alone, not devils as the summoned help.





Yep. That whole devils/demons cooperation was easily my biggest gripe, and I think I addressed it in at least two of my reviews, if not all 3. Not sure what you mean about the sun elf though. Malkizid is a fallen solar/archdevil. He was kicked out of Hell by Asmodeus and setup shop with the yugoloths (they call it the Blood Rift, I'll always go with the 2e Gray Waste of Hades). Malkizid "ordered" his devil minions to play nice with the demons. Yeah, it's still flimsy and I can't buy into it... Ughh, it's still hard.

Unlike you though, I thought the series itself, that one glaring exception excluded, was very good. And I'm no mythal scholar, but aren't they something like a huge battery of magical energy that is shaped by the archmages of the city to benefit them in the way they choose? Meaning, the mythals of Myth Glaurach and Myth Drannor won't necessarily be the same. One city might deem that warm weather and permanent featherfall effects for all is the way to go, while another city's mythal might have an effect that stunts the growth of weeds and inhibits the spread of fire. If you're arguing that a mythal is irrevocably "set" upon its creation and is not a malleable thing, that's probably a fair point. Did you dislike the way Sarya and Araevin were able to sculpt and/or thread in new effects or alterations? They were using elven High Magic, guided by Malkizid (in Sarya's case) or the selukiira (in Araevin's case).




AFAIK, Mythals are not really magical batteries. Those are the Mythallars (the Netherese devices).

Mythals are usually local alterations of the Weave that prevent certain effects from happening within its range (example: no [Death] or [Fire] effect spells), or certain creatures from entering. They are a sort of epic wards.

IIRC, they could also empower certain magical effects, but they didn't allow people within their range to have raw magical energies to sculpt as they pleased.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 03 Mar 2018 14:44:51
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2018 :  15:45:59  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I finished The City of Splendors a couple days ago. Like all Greenwood projects, I could write a book-length review almost as long as the book itself. I was really excited to see Elaine Cunningham as a co-writer on this project, but that enthusiasm dimmed rapidly as I read the story - it seemed like it was 95% Greenwood as far as style and tone were concerned. I struggled to find much of Elaine's presence. She has perused this thread and chimed in on several occasions (much to all our delight!), so maybe she will grace us once again. If I had to guess at which aspects she was most involved in, it would be the following:

Lark - she read more like an EC character than an EG one.
Craulnober's dialogue - it felt a lot like how he has been portrayed in previous EC works, so I'm guessing she handled most, if not all, of his scenes.
[Partial] The Gemcloaks - for much of the story they read as "samey" - all flippant, snarky, and ultimately disposable. But by the end of the book I felt they had developed some real nuance and depth. Elaine's influence?
The Brewer's Apprentice (chapter 9) - much like the barmaid we discussed in a previous Cunningham work, she has a wonderful way of taking these nobody "extras" in a story and making me really think about them as actual entities with a back history.


Ok, now on to some random thoughts in no discernible order:

Hin - I've heard this term used for the Halfling race used before, but can't recall where. Is this mostly a Forgotten Realms/Greenwood thing? I actually prefer it quite a bit over Halfling, as the thought of an entire race of people being known simply by their relation to another thing (half the size of humans) seems condescending and dismissive to me. Perhaps it was Ed's homebrew name for "hobbits" in the early days of D&D?

Asper - I once thought of her as just another of Greenwood's pubescent sluts; a fantasy hotty in skintight leather, as tiresome and tropey as every female in his works. But she's developed quite a bit over the course of several novels and short stories, I actually find her more interesting than Mirt now, something I would've considered inconceivable just a short time ago.

Gods of the Amalgamation - who are they? After just recently seeing a god named Entropy in another book, it feels like new deities are springing up all over the place. Golskyn is a pretty powerful cleric though, and his prayers are being answered by someone.... I wonder if there's some god of corruption posing as an aspect to this cult. Maybe some offshoot of Malar, as they venerated the power of beasts, and his main adherents were mongrel-men. I don't know, it was never really fleshed out fully. Thoughts? Also, in typical Greenwood fashion, the attack on Waterdeep featured hordes and hordes of Golskyn's mutated beastmen attacking the city in waves. Where did they all come from? We never saw a hideout with this many hanging around.

Beholder Colony (ch. 16) - I thought these guys were supposed to be ultra-xenophobic and all about ethnic cleansing within their own subraces. But this crew seemed to have at least two, if not more subspecies living together.

Ceiling Collapse - the writing of this chapter bothered me. As giant stone blocks fall from the ceiling, turning party revelers into paste, what do the young Gemcloak nobles do? Stand around and make sarcastic quips... Do you know who acts like this in similar crisis situations? Exactly nobody. Even seasoned warriors would be rushing for the exits, probably trampling those in their path, and screaming incoherently. But here we have these flippant young wastrels, utterly cool as can be, delivering witty repartee.

Mrelder - I couldn't buy in to this character. He starts as a scribe of Candlekeep with a special interest/passion in the City of Waterdeep. After finally getting the chance to visit the City of Splendors, he runs into his hero Piergeron in a chance encounter, and appropriately acts like someone meeting a celebrity. All well and good so far. Then Piergeron makes an offhand comment about fathers being proud of sons, and Mrelder becomes obsessed with his own dad's approval, to the point where he now wants to destroy Piergeron and conquer/annihilate the city. I just couldn't believe the complete, 180 degree turnaround. He somewhat redeemed himself at the end by realizing how crazypants Gholskyn is, and acts a bit to undermine him.

So, all in all I found this book a bit of a chore. It certainly wasn't a bad story, and it definitley got better as it moved along. But, much like Mrelder himself, it just didn't do quite enough to redeem itself in the end. Up next I go to the Fighters series with book 1: Master of Chains.




Edited by - VikingLegion on 03 Mar 2018 15:50:27
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Hyperion
Acolyte

38 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2018 :  18:23:10  Show Profile Send Hyperion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
Hin - I've heard this term used for the Halfling race used before, but can't recall where. Is this mostly a Forgotten Realms/Greenwood thing? I actually prefer it quite a bit over Halfling, as the thought of an entire race of people being known simply by their relation to another thing (half the size of humans) seems condescending and dismissive to me. Perhaps it was Ed's homebrew name for "hobbits" in the early days of D&D?



The term Hin was invented by Greenwood I think and it is used for the halfling of Mystara, the basic D&D setting. Greenwood indeed wrote "The Five Shires" gazetteer, published in 1988, about the homeland of the halflings in the Mystara setting.
Totally escaped me that he used this term in the FR too, even if I read City of Waterdeep. But has been some years, maybe at the time when I read the book I noticed but did not give much thought to it..
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

2395 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2018 :  14:09:09  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

She has perused this thread and chimed in on several occasions...




Okay. Here's some behind-the-scenes observations.

The process of writing City of Splendors was a great deal of fun. Many phone calls and emails, lots of laughter, and an entirely cordial process. The book itself, however, was not the story we'd intended to tell.

The initial plan--and the proposal that was approved--was for a big "historical novel" in the vein of Cormyr and Evermeet. This would have allowed us to write distinct sections, the historical and the current-day framing story, that didn't necessarily need to have a single tone and would, in fact, benefit from having different voices. We were also given a word count range in the vicinity of 140,000-160,000.

Then at Gen Con, we met with an editor who said, "Instead of the book you pitched, we want one set entirely in current time with new, low-level characters." And Khelben Arunsun, who would have been the focal character, was now off limits.

After the initial shock, we shrugged helplessly and got to work. We brainstormed plots, split up the characters and scenes, and sent things back and forth, editing and overwriting repeatedly in an effort to make the narrative style consistent even while giving the characters their own voices. It was, as I mentioned earlier, an entirely cordial process, but one that, I think, we both struggled with. Our writing styles simply did not want to blend.

AND THEN, after the revisions were finally written, the editor asked Ed to make substantial cuts (if memory serves, it was something like 15,000 words) and to "make it sound like one person wrote it." That's a significant rewrite. He rose to the occasion and did the revision in an impossibly short period of time. The end result, obviously, is a book that has far more of Ed's voice than mine. I suspect that, time permitting, he would have been inclined to make additional changes to the plot and characters that, in all probability, would have improved the story. I struggle with plotting more than any other aspect of writing, and I should have deferred more to Ed in this regard.

Bottom line? Sometimes the whole is more than the sum of its parts. That didn't happen here. We have both written stronger novels, but even so, I am happy and grateful for the opportunity to work with Ed, and would do so again in a heartbeat on a project that would benefit from two very distinct voices. I can't think of another person on earth with whom I'd rather write an epistolary novel (a story told as a series of letters between two characters.) That would be a ridiculous amount of fun.

There's a very mixed reaction to City of Splendors. I've observed that people who read the novels for setting color are more inclined to like this story. It's packed with lore, and you get to see aspects of Waterdeep society not often addressed in fiction. If that's something you value, I would recommend this book. If you're more interested in character-driven novels, you would probably prefer other books Ed and I have written.

Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 05 Mar 2018 15:26:34
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2018 :  00:58:45  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for chiming in, Elaine. I enjoyed all the insight and lore that the book provided, but it sounds like there was some serious untapped potential there.

The more I read about WotC's editor's choices, the more I'm convinced that the Realms would have been better off with a different team. Alas...

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  01:57:55  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Elaine,

Once again we all thank you for the wonderful inside look you provide us into the process, whether it's good, bad, or sometimes ugly (how did you not strangle that editor!?!?!) I'm so glad you mentioned Cormyr, because that's exactly what I thought and hoped this story would be when I started it. Even though I tend to nitpick Greenwood and Grubb's specific individual styles, their collaboration produced one of my favorite Realms books. Cormyr was a case where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. I very much thought City of Splendors would reach similar heights, but unfortunately meddling from up high sabotaged that. But after re-reading my overly negative review, I realize I did focus almost entirely on what I didn't like. There were quite a few excellent moments, I think I just wanted this book to be so much more, I killed my own enjoyment of it through self-hype, if that makes any sense.

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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

2395 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  18:50:58  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

Elaine,

Once again we all thank you for the wonderful inside look you provide us into the process, whether it's good, bad, or sometimes ugly (how did you not strangle that editor!?!?!) I'm so glad you mentioned Cormyr, because that's exactly what I thought and hoped this story would be when I started it. Even though I tend to nitpick Greenwood and Grubb's specific individual styles, their collaboration produced one of my favorite Realms books. Cormyr was a case where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. I very much thought City of Splendors would reach similar heights, but unfortunately meddling from up high sabotaged that. But after re-reading my overly negative review, I realize I did focus almost entirely on what I didn't like. There were quite a few excellent moments, I think I just wanted this book to be so much more, I killed my own enjoyment of it through self-hype, if that makes any sense.





No worries. I have much the same feeling about this book: It could have, and should have, been much more.

Strangling the editor was neither an option nor an impulse. These things are not the decision of one person, but simply a fact of life in shared-world fiction. New editions happen. Game designers come and go. Editorial directions change. You flow with it as best you can. Sometimes things work out better than initially expected, sometimes not. On balance, though, I find that the fun of shared-world writing outweighs the frustrations.
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2018 :  00:40:25  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I finished Master of Chains a couple days ago. I haven't heard much praise for this entire line of "Classes" books, I don't think they were very well received. For my part, I've found them to be a mixed bag, but I don't consider any of them to be awful or excellent, just varying degrees of in-between. This book was also an up-and-down experience. I was bothered at how little description was given to the setting initially. It wasn't until page 200 that there was any kind of significant exposition on Erlkazar, a land I knew nothing about, not even its general location. I didn't want to look it up for fear of spoilers, so I went 2/3 of the book without any kind of feel for the background. The baron (and presumed bad guy for most of the story) ruled from a place called Zerith Hold - does that sound like Zhentil Keep Lite to anyone else? A mage tricked several undead with illusion spells, I don't think that works. Also it was absurd how the protagonist acquired his magical spiked chain. After going through a good portion of the book using the chain that bound him in slavery (obvious, but cool concept), he eventually sheds that item. Then, while helping defend a rebel camp, he finds himself again weaponless. Another rebel says "Hang on a moment, I have something that might work." He then goes to his foot locker and pulls out a powerfully enchanted spiked chain that glows purple and discharges jolts of electricity with each strike. Wait.... what? Aside from the obvious question of why does he carry this potent weapon around that he doesn't know how to use, it's just absurdly convenient that he's in the presence of another fighter who happens to have been using just such a weapon exclusively since breaking free from his slavers.

But it wasn't all bad. The essence of the story had a lot of promise. Two brothers, separated by circumstance and then reunited after much has changed, find themselves at cross purposes. There was some great betrayal (unintentional and otherwise), a villain that turned out to be not what he seemed, shifting alliances, etc. The "bones" of this book had a great story somewhere in there, it's just the execution was lacking in several regards. I really dig the idea/concept of a chain-fighter specialist. In fact, I had planned to play one when I first read it as an option for 3.0 - it just seemed so edgy and cool to try out, especially when at higher levels they start to take on some supernatural affinities with chains that make them more than just a fighter skilled in an exotic weapon style. I was hoping this book would have a neat story describing just such a transformation - like maybe a pact with a kyton or devil patron, bonding to a sentient weapon, some kind of magical accident in the presence of a chained up prisoner, I don't know, think Marvel origin story... - but instead it was just an ex-slave dude that got good with a chain by necessity, then stumbled across an enchanted version. Missed opportunity there.

Rob Zombie looked totally badass on the cover.

Up next it's back to the Priests series with Richard Lee Byers Queen of the Depths.
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2018 :  15:59:52  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I blasted through Queen of the Depths in about 2 days. I think this might've been the best of the Classes books thus far. I've said it before, I really like Richard Lee Byers style. He always makes me hit the internet to look up a word, or words, I've never been exposed to, and I read A LOT. His characters are usually pretty interesting, his fight scenes are always solid and well-informed with a real-world fencing background, and he sneaks in some great dialogue, both witty at times and serious when it needs to be. He really excels with these swashbuckling type heroes and Indiana Jonesish stories, for lack of a better term. I also like how he incorporates other parts of the realms. For instance, I enjoyed seeing Captain Vurgrom, who has made several other appearances: the Threat from the Sea trilogy, the Shackled City adventure path, and I'm sure several other references. Late in the book there was also a cameo by the wizard Jorunhast. I don't recall how far back in the "hast" line he is (Amedahast, Thanderahast, Vangerdahast, etc.) but the name feels familiar from the book Cormyr: A Novel, which we've oddly been talking about a lot lately... I do like when authors drop references like that, it really makes the Realms feel like the vast, detailed shared world that it is.

Anyway, very solid book, I find the more I am exposed to Seros the more interesting it is. I know a while back we talked about an excellent sourcebook for this area, something I will eventually find a copy of. Ok, up next in the order I get to RAS's Promise of the Witch King.

Edited by - VikingLegion on 10 Mar 2018 16:01:36
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VikingLegion
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USA
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Posted - 16 Mar 2018 :  00:36:38  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Last night I finished Promise of the Witch King. Disclaimer: I'm a big RAS fan, I've always loved his works. For many years he WAS the Realms, for me anyway. That said, no author is above some critique, and this book I felt was amongst (if not the) least enjoyable of his I can recall.

Jarlaxle and Artemis have made their way to the Vaasa/Damara area. So far so good, I'm pretty keen on finding out more about the Bloodstone Lands, so this is working for me. There's an excellent portion in Chapter 2 with Entreri engaging in some pretty serious introspection. It wasn't subtle, but I thought it was very well done. I'm not sure I understand the whole flute subplot, and why Jarlaxle is so obsessed with turning this souless assassin into a real boy. Is there some kind of huge end-game I'm not aware of yet, what is his ultimate plan? Or is it simply a case of Jarlaxle acting on a whim. One never knows with that guy, he just sort of does what he wants.

Then things take a downward turn. I thought the whole evil artifact that builds an edifice or bastion of badness (Zhengyi's book to castle) was a bit reminiscent of Crenshinibon and the towers (Cryshal-Tirith). Not exactly the same thing, but similar enough. And then we have the character of Athrogate - a crazy dwarven warrior that often speaks in rhymes (and bad ones at that). C'mon.... has that really worked out for anyone? Here are a couple of the unbearable examples:

"I'm feeling a bump and a bit of a shake/ I'm thinkin' to find a few monsters to break!"
"I got yer back, I got yer head/ Them snakes attack ye, they wind up dead!"

Painful...

And while I would never, ever accuse him of "mailing it in", this book did have some sloppiness to it: several repeated words or phrases in extremely close proximity to each other, it just felt a bit rushed. The supporting cast of characters never really endeared themselves to me. I kind of like Mariabronne (name notwithstanding), but he majorly screwed up towards the end and caused both his own death as well as at least one of his companions as they rushed to try to save him. I know he was supposed to be reckless and adventurous, but that was downright stupid. The rest of the crew were fairly forgettable. I think one of the big problems, for me anyway, was almost the entirety of this book centered on that one adventuring group. There was only one "cutaway" that I can think of, a brief interlude in the nearby town to show them prepping for a big defense against Zhengyi's minions. Other than that it was just chapter after chapter of the group exploring a castle. It read more like a dungeon-crawl module (and not a great one at that) than a story. It just didn't do anything for me.

Up next is a brief (probably VERY brief) break as I re-read the unbelievably excellent novel Ready Player One, in preparation of the movie coming out in a couple weeks. I should tear through this in a few days at most, and then resume my Realms trek.

Edited by - VikingLegion on 17 Mar 2018 11:41:17
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Lamora
Seeker

USA
81 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2018 :  04:24:39  Show Profile Send Lamora a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This book was slightly a let-down in some ways. There is all that build up of Vaasa and Damara and then... the duo leave the region. It felt unfinished to me. Though I enjoyed Athrogate as a character and how OP he is. The rhyming does grate though.
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Madpig
Learned Scribe

Finland
148 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2018 :  21:58:06  Show Profile Send Madpig a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Viking you are going to get a lot more of that rhyming in future :D So be prepared. For me, Promise was one of the most interesting works of RAS. Next book is even better. Have to say, it is sometimes good that I am not a native speaker, so that rhyming did not bother me as much.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2018 :  15:31:07  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Servant of the Shard is my fave of Bob's books (followed by The Crystal Shard and Ghost King); so to me I was hoping for an amazing second book and got one of the least enjoyable of Bob's books. Sigh. I agree with your review! Book 3 in the Sellswords isn't much better but at least it has showy characters and memorable scenes.

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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  01:41:01  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I finished Ghostwalker several days ago but hadn't found time to get on here for a writeup. As soon as I realized the main character was a revenant type being, I immediately assumed this book would be a Crow ripoff. And while it did share some traits with that story (how could it not?), there were also some elements of Batman, Ghost Rider, even something of an anime/Ninja Scroll vibe thrown in there. This entire book read sort of like a guilty pleasure to me, the badass martial arts fighter from beyond the grave, avenging his own death by murdering his murderers. Throw in an oversized black cloak with rents and holes in it that flows all around him as though possessing a life of its own - pure fan service, but yet I found it very entertaining at times. This book, especially several of the action sequences, did a terrific job of making me imagine the scene playing out. I know when "The FR D&D Movie" was announced there was much speculation on which characters/places it would use - whether Elminster or Drizzt would be a focus, etc. Many fans preferred the idea of a fresh start and avoiding the heavy hitters. I had that notion in the back of my mind while reading this book and couldn't help but think how cinematic parts of it were, it's like I was drawing my own mental storyboards as I went along.

Some things that didn't work for me were the comedic stylings of Derst and Bars - two knights sent as bodyguards for one of the female investigators. Their humor and I guess rakish/witty banter just fell flat. Also the main villain very frequently spoke in rhymes.... ARGHHHH, didn't I just deal with that in the previous book? This guy gets half a pass though, as he is a bard. Terrible poetry notwithstanding, he was a pretty interesting villain. He's a former adventurer who is anything but heroic, yet uses his charisma and musical/magic charms to win over the rabble and set himself up as a great savior and friend of the common man. But he wasn't your typical moustache-twirling, manipulating villain. He was a bit neurotic, full of equal parts arrogance and self-loathing. I thought he was well-nuanced and stood out as a character, albeit in a loathsome fashion. The Ghost Lady of the Forest was another unique character in that she had some good intentions, but was pretty awful despite what she would consider justified actions. I enjoy these kind of morally gray types.

So, while it probably didn't make much of a blip on the overall FR scene, I thought it was a fun and diverting read. Up next I continue with the Fighters series with the next book: Son of Thunder.

Edited by - VikingLegion on 07 Apr 2018 14:23:20
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2018 :  22:13:05  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I finished Son of Thunder several days ago. I was pleased immediately to see the name Elaine Cunningham in the acknowledgments. Her quote on the back cover - that this book is "rich in Realmslore" is very accurate. Yes, it's a story about Uthgardt barbarians for the most part - but it also manages to include an enormous amount of info and tidbits from other parts of the world, particularly areas with Zhent influence like Darkhold and Llorkh. There are updates on Manshoon, Fzoul, Sememmon/Ashemmi, etc.

There was some great info to be had on the formation of the Uthgardts, from Netherese refugees to where they are currently (I think Dazzlerdal posited some theories in either this thread or another awhile back, I'm wondering if he read this book). The somewhat murky history of the Bey of Runlatha, aka Beorrun, aka Berrun is clarified quite well. There's also some good lore on some of the other tribes, including the Great Wyrm tribe and the unfortunate end of their spirit totem Elrem.

I particularly enjoyed some of the info on the Unicorn Run. I thought this was just a river in the High Forest that had a somewhat-stronger-than-normal connection to nature, maybe a portal to the Seelie Court or something of that nature. But it's so much more than that, if one believes the legends. I really liked the delve into that area.

It just occured to me I haven't even broached the story itself yet. It's about the Thunderbeast tribe and their efforts to protect a mystical, hidden sanctuary containing the dinosaurs sacred to their people. The Zhents want the artifact - a surviving piece from ancient Netheril - that powers the illusion spell that hides this vale. It's funny, the story takes a back seat to all the great lore going on, but that's not to say it's a bad or deficient story. There is a typical "chosen one", the main character, who becomes a receptacle of the Thunderbeast's power, able to transform in the heat of battle with an exoskeleton of armor and heightened strength/speed and so on.

Good book overall. After the mediocre Master of Chains, I've found the next two in the Fighters series to be somewhat pleasant surprises. Up next I keep going with this group of novels with: Bladesinger. I'm actually about halfway through it already, so I'm expecting to have that writeup by the weekend.

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Murray Leeder
Forgotten Realms Author

Canada
228 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2018 :  20:21:39  Show Profile  Visit Murray Leeder's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

I finished Son of Thunder several days ago. I was pleased immediately to see the name Elaine Cunningham in the acknowledgments. Her quote on the back cover - that this book is "rich in Realmslore" is very accurate. Yes, it's a story about Uthgardt barbarians for the most part - but it also manages to include an enormous amount of info and tidbits from other parts of the world, particularly areas with Zhent influence like Darkhold and Llorkh. There are updates on Manshoon, Fzoul, Sememmon/Ashemmi, etc.

There was some great info to be had on the formation of the Uthgardts, from Netherese refugees to where they are currently (I think Dazzlerdal posited some theories in either this thread or another awhile back, I'm wondering if he read this book). The somewhat murky history of the Bey of Runlatha, aka Beorrun, aka Berrun is clarified quite well. There's also some good lore on some of the other tribes, including the Great Wyrm tribe and the unfortunate end of their spirit totem Elrem.

I particularly enjoyed some of the info on the Unicorn Run. I thought this was just a river in the High Forest that had a somewhat-stronger-than-normal connection to nature, maybe a portal to the Seelie Court or something of that nature. But it's so much more than that, if one believes the legends. I really liked the delve into that area.

It just occured to me I haven't even broached the story itself yet. It's about the Thunderbeast tribe and their efforts to protect a mystical, hidden sanctuary containing the dinosaurs sacred to their people. The Zhents want the artifact - a surviving piece from ancient Netheril - that powers the illusion spell that hides this vale. It's funny, the story takes a back seat to all the great lore going on, but that's not to say it's a bad or deficient story. There is a typical "chosen one", the main character, who becomes a receptacle of the Thunderbeast's power, able to transform in the heat of battle with an exoskeleton of armor and heightened strength/speed and so on.

Good book overall. After the mediocre Master of Chains, I've found the next two in the Fighters series to be somewhat pleasant surprises. Up next I keep going with this group of novels with: Bladesinger. I'm actually about halfway through it already, so I'm expecting to have that writeup by the weekend.





Thanks for the kind words. You've hit on something interesting; the story was very much conceived around lore, its study and its implications.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
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Posted - 05 Apr 2018 :  02:46:10  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

I finished Son of Thunder several days ago. I was pleased immediately to see the name Elaine Cunningham in the acknowledgments. Her quote on the back cover - that this book is "rich in Realmslore" is very accurate. Yes, it's a story about Uthgardt barbarians for the most part - but it also manages to include an enormous amount of info and tidbits from other parts of the world, particularly areas with Zhent influence like Darkhold and Llorkh. There are updates on Manshoon, Fzoul, Sememmon/Ashemmi, etc.

There was some great info to be had on the formation of the Uthgardts, from Netherese refugees to where they are currently (I think Dazzlerdal posited some theories in either this thread or another awhile back, I'm wondering if he read this book). The somewhat murky history of the Bey of Runlatha, aka Beorrun, aka Berrun is clarified quite well. There's also some good lore on some of the other tribes, including the Great Wyrm tribe and the unfortunate end of their spirit totem Elrem.

I particularly enjoyed some of the info on the Unicorn Run. I thought this was just a river in the High Forest that had a somewhat-stronger-than-normal connection to nature, maybe a portal to the Seelie Court or something of that nature. But it's so much more than that, if one believes the legends. I really liked the delve into that area.

It just occured to me I haven't even broached the story itself yet. It's about the Thunderbeast tribe and their efforts to protect a mystical, hidden sanctuary containing the dinosaurs sacred to their people. The Zhents want the artifact - a surviving piece from ancient Netheril - that powers the illusion spell that hides this vale. It's funny, the story takes a back seat to all the great lore going on, but that's not to say it's a bad or deficient story. There is a typical "chosen one", the main character, who becomes a receptacle of the Thunderbeast's power, able to transform in the heat of battle with an exoskeleton of armor and heightened strength/speed and so on.

Good book overall. After the mediocre Master of Chains, I've found the next two in the Fighters series to be somewhat pleasant surprises. Up next I keep going with this group of novels with: Bladesinger. I'm actually about halfway through it already, so I'm expecting to have that writeup by the weekend.





I've never read this book, myself; I skipped most of the Classes books. But your description of it has encouraged me to find a copy and give it a shot.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6641 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2018 :  06:36:48  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Murray Leeder
Thanks for the kind words. You've hit on something interesting; the story was very much conceived around lore, its study and its implications.



I enjoyed it a lot too Murray, and certainly appreciated your Realms research and scholarship.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2018 :  14:41:33  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've never read this book, myself; I skipped most of the Classes books. But your description of it has encouraged me to find a copy and give it a shot.



I get the feeling that the Classes series either were not received all that well, or simply didn't get much widespread exposure. I've enjoyed them for the most part, I think a lot of that has to due with the fact that they are standalone stories. Not everything has to be an epic quintet that shakes the entire world. Often I prefer a 300 page book that is going to introduce a new character and tell a complete tale within its own borders. For my part I've found these series to be:

Rogues - somewhat average, maybe a bit below. Admittedly rogues are not my favorite protagonist type though, so perhaps my reactions were biased. The Black Bouquet, by Richard Lee Byers (the one with the female monk of Shar as the villain!) was the standout here, the rest were... meh

Priests - better than average. In fact, I thought they were all much better than expected aside from the one written by a contest winner.

Fighters - also better than expected. Master of Chains had some serious issues. Ghostwalker was super fun in a popcorn/movie kind of way. Son of Thunder is being discussed now, and Bladesinger is up next.


Edited by - VikingLegion on 07 Apr 2018 14:42:38
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VikingLegion
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USA
483 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2018 :  14:51:13  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Murray Leeder


Thanks for the kind words. You've hit on something interesting; the story was very much conceived around lore, its study and its implications.



Yeah, I'm a Netheril (and Myth Drannor) junkie, so any story that hearkens back to the older kingdoms is fascinating to me. I really liked the archaeological feel in parts of this book, from the discovery of the axe in the Fallen Lands to Geildarr's attempts to unravel its lore (both magical and mundane library research) was really interesting. Thanks for the engaging read, and also thanks for chiming in on this thread, I always get a thrill when the authors drop in and share!
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VikingLegion
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USA
483 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2018 :  15:27:51  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Quick interlude before the Bladesinger review:

I have a book called Dragons: Worlds Afire. I don't even remember where it came from or how I obtained it. It's a large, flat book, like a coffee table style. It contains four novellas, each written in a different WOTC world, and all lavishly illustrated and including introductory comments by the author. I read the Dragonlance story some years ago, back when I was going through that series. There are also stories set in FR, Eberron, and Magic: The Gathering. I don't know if I'll ever read the latter two, I don't have much interest in either setting. But I did read the Realms one, a RAS tale titled; If Ever They Happened Upon My Lair.

I really liked this story. probably as much as I disliked Promise of the Witch King. It's a prequel to PotWK, in that it explains how Zhengyi managed to trap the soul of a black dragon in his book. Very solid story, great artwork, I have nothing negative to say about it. Once again, RAS pays an ode to Tolkein, describing a dragon's "lamplight" gaze. I believe he's the only TSR/WotC author to use this particular bit of draconic flavor, with actual beams of light emitting from their eyes to illuminate intruders in their lair. If you've seen the old Bakshi Hobbit cartoon from the 70s, you know what I'm talking about.

Ok, up next is Bladesinger.

Edited by - VikingLegion on 07 Apr 2018 15:31:09
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2018 :  15:28:28  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bladesinger

If books 2 and 3 of the Fighters series were pleasant surprises, this book was a revelation. The author did an amazing job making me "feel" the region of Rashemen. In many books I admit I'm guilty of somewhat glossing over the descriptions of weather, trees, scenery and so on. I sometimes find it to be little more than window dressing, page filler. Strohm's work in this area (at least for this book, I'm not too familiar with him otherwise) was terrific. It really made the soul of this region shine, making the setting almost like a character in itself.

His characters were all intriguing - flawed, damaged, and very nuanced. The main protagonist is a half-elf outcast who is trying to learn the elven art of Bladesinging, while facing the obvious stigma of his partial human heritage. He comes off a bit angsty/mopey at times, but when you see what he's gone through, it becomes very understandable. He is accompanied by a maimed druid, a crusty Halfling fighter that acts more like a dwarf than a Halfling, and a native Rashemi ranger to guide them. Between the great, descriptive scenery writing and the excellent character development, if I didn't glance at the cover before reading I would swear this was a Cunningham novel. I recall her doing a similarly excellent job with Rashemen in one of the Liriel books. It also reminded me heavily of another novelist many of you might not be familiar with - Nancy Varian Berberick. She worked mainly in the Dragonlance line, she has such an evocative, beautiful writing style, I often enjoyed her stories more than the "headliners" of that world, and Bladesinger reminded me quite a bit of her tone and style.

About the only negatives I could come up with for this story are:

1. The dialogue was a bit comic-booky at times, particularly the main villain when she addresses the heroes. Kinda cheesy/contrived/tropey

2. The elven names... just about every character and even location with an elven connection had an "ae" or "ea" combination somewhere within, making them all start to blur together for me. Taenaran, Avaelearean, Aelrindel, Faelyn, Arvaedra, Andaerean, Talaedra, etc. Ughh!

But these are minor nitpicks, at best. This was an excellent novel and I believe something of a hidden gem. If you haven't read it, give it a try. I just found 13 copies for under $4 in less than a minute of searching.

Up next, I start the Watercourse Trilogy with book 1: Whisper of Waves.

Edited by - VikingLegion on 07 Apr 2018 16:08:59
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2018 :  20:29:25  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

I finished Son of Thunder several days ago. I was pleased immediately to see the name Elaine Cunningham in the acknowledgments. Her quote on the back cover - that this book is "rich in Realmslore" is very accurate. Yes, it's a story about Uthgardt barbarians for the most part - but it also manages to include an enormous amount of info and tidbits from other parts of the world, particularly areas with Zhent influence like Darkhold and Llorkh. There are updates on Manshoon, Fzoul, Sememmon/Ashemmi, etc.

There was some great info to be had on the formation of the Uthgardts, from Netherese refugees to where they are currently (I think Dazzlerdal posited some theories in either this thread or another awhile back, I'm wondering if he read this book). The somewhat murky history of the Bey of Runlatha, aka Beorrun, aka Berrun is clarified quite well. There's also some good lore on some of the other tribes, including the Great Wyrm tribe and the unfortunate end of their spirit totem Elrem.

I particularly enjoyed some of the info on the Unicorn Run. I thought this was just a river in the High Forest that had a somewhat-stronger-than-normal connection to nature, maybe a portal to the Seelie Court or something of that nature. But it's so much more than that, if one believes the legends. I really liked the delve into that area.

It just occured to me I haven't even broached the story itself yet. It's about the Thunderbeast tribe and their efforts to protect a mystical, hidden sanctuary containing the dinosaurs sacred to their people. The Zhents want the artifact - a surviving piece from ancient Netheril - that powers the illusion spell that hides this vale. It's funny, the story takes a back seat to all the great lore going on, but that's not to say it's a bad or deficient story. There is a typical "chosen one", the main character, who becomes a receptacle of the Thunderbeast's power, able to transform in the heat of battle with an exoskeleton of armor and heightened strength/speed and so on.

Good book overall. After the mediocre Master of Chains, I've found the next two in the Fighters series to be somewhat pleasant surprises. Up next I keep going with this group of novels with: Bladesinger. I'm actually about halfway through it already, so I'm expecting to have that writeup by the weekend.





I don't recall any specific theories I posted on the uthgardt but I am quite forgetful.
I haven't read any realms novels apart from Blackstaff as I generally consider the novels to be poorly researched (Steven Schend and Ed Greenwood of course cannot poorly research the realms because they helped make it into the gem it was) and I'm a gamer first and foremost but based on your recommendation I will give Sons of Thunder a read at some point.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2018 :  21:15:09  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal



I don't recall any specific theories I posted on the uthgardt but I am quite forgetful.
I haven't read any realms novels apart from Blackstaff as I generally consider the novels to be poorly researched (Steven Schend and Ed Greenwood of course cannot poorly research the realms because they helped make it into the gem it was) and I'm a gamer first and foremost but based on your recommendation I will give Sons of Thunder a read at some point.



So you've read exactly one novel and consider all of them poorly researched, based on one that wasn't?

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