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Caolin
Senior Scribe

741 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  04:37:21  Show Profile Send Caolin a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu




Not sure why you’d double down on a term you admit is tainted and that a mod spoke out against in this very thread, but because you seem to insist on being told again: “virtue signaling” is bullshit made up by the worst of the reactionary crowd to dismiss literally any attempt, no matter how small, to defend or even explain any plight of any marginalized person, because they refuse to see it as genuine. It lets you neatly sidestep any point someone is making because they can’t imagine someone actually caring about others.
[/quote]

It's because it's the only way I can get across how insufferably self-righteous you all are being. Your answer to any counter-points is to paint those points as hurtful and bigoted thus they are in fact wrong and you say intent and context are meaningless....they're not btw. You are operating on a black and white, with us or against us, worldview that hardly anyone follows. You leave no room for discussion.

Also, virtue signalling doesn't come from where you think it does.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33623 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  05:11:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
Yeah, it's really self-righteous to think we should stop insulting a major chunk of the population because of their skin. It's really self-righteous to want a better world for everyone.

As for the phrase "virtue signaling," why don't you look at your own link? "Virtue signalling is a pejorative neologism for the conspicuous expression of moral values." and "Outside academia, it is often used pejoratively."

Now, gosh, why would someone have a problem with being dismissed and insulted for wanting to improve the world?

Unless you can prove that it's all talk or that people don't really hold those views, you're insulting them when you say it.

Even if you're right -- why is it so bad to talk about improving things, instead of silently maintaining a status quo that demonizes and oppresses people for having a slightly different set of genes? Not everyone can change the world, but nothing's going to change until people realize there's a need for change.

And is it really a "conspicuous" expression when it's on topic in a discussion related to such?

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 30 Jun 2020 05:12:50
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

575 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  06:07:22  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Seriously, why is there such a debate about saying "don't be a jerk"?
Because if one sets the quota at "as long as one persons says you're a jerk you are one" it's impossible to meet.

There's hardly any form of enterntainment that does not offend at least a few people.



That's not what the quota is and you know it. The quota is "Don't be a jerk to people based on their heritage."

I find it hard to believe that this basic concept eludes so many people. I suspect a deliberate obtuseness at play.

And the quota to define whether you're a jerk based on heritage is what? Among 5.4 million norwegians you can certainly find a couple dozends insulted by a Minnesota football Team calling themselves wikings
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Caolin
Senior Scribe

741 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  06:07:37  Show Profile Send Caolin a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Yeah, it's really self-righteous to think we should stop insulting a major chunk of the population because of their skin. It's really self-righteous to want a better world for everyone.


Please, this is the least anyone can do and have the least amount of impact. It's simply a lazy way to assuage white guilt.

quote:

As for the phrase "virtue signaling," why don't you look at your own link? "Virtue signalling is a pejorative neologism for the conspicuous expression of moral values." and "Outside academia, it is often used pejoratively."



I read it and I know what it means and why I used it.

quote:

Even if you're right -- why is it so bad to talk about improving things, instead of silently maintaining a status quo that demonizes and oppresses people for having a slightly different set of genes? Not everyone can change the world, but nothing's going to change until people realize there's a need for change.

And is it really a "conspicuous" expression when it's on topic in a discussion related to such?



Because this IS NOT the problem. Drow and Orcs are NOT the problem, putting black makeup on is NOT the problem, and being insulted by a TV show is NOT the problem. All this is is white people trying to make themselves feel better. That's it, that's all it is. You can snarkely throw out "Oh excuse us for trying to make the world better". But in reality you're taking an extreme position that does more harm than actual good.
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

575 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  06:10:28  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

quote:
Originally posted by Caolin

quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Speaking of South Park: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tPsv00Caag

I'm still not sure where you're going with this. Are you saying that by taking out religion, we lose a holiday? Or are you saying something about how South Park makes fun of everyone?



The point is that once we start censoring to protect one groups feelings then we have to protect EVERYONE's feelings. South Park has been pretty adamant about the idea that no one has a right to not have their feelings hurt.

Wow. If we cared what people thought, and made sure no one was made fun of, or belittled, or made to feel inferior, that would almost be ... the future shown in Star Trek? Where we live in a human utopia?

Oh no! Please don't let that happen? What will all the racists and bible-thumpers and sexual-assaulters do? Whatever will happen to internet trolls standing up for racism and white supremacy as a freedom of speech? Why, they may just go extinct and the human race would evolve for the first time in 100,000 years!

Edit: And South Park isn't adamant that no one has a right to not have their feelings hurt. South Park is adamant that no one can tell anyone else that their feelings are more important than anyone elses.

ST is certainly going to have episodes pulled next. There's a lot of problematic alien species and episode storylines

BTW your utopia would look exactly like this south park play. Unless someone Shows up offended by featureless gray suits. Then we'd need to find something even more bland

Ps: no idea why this now has a differenz color, that was not intended

Edited by - Mirtek on 30 Jun 2020 08:07:01
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33623 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  10:35:06  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

And the quota to define whether you're a jerk based on heritage is what? Among 5.4 million norwegians you can certainly find a couple dozends insulted by a Minnesota football Team calling themselves wikings



Now who's taken extreme positions? Where is the insult in referencing a historic group in a non-negative way?

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33623 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  10:39:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Yeah, it's really self-righteous to think we should stop insulting a major chunk of the population because of their skin. It's really self-righteous to want a better world for everyone.


Please, this is the least anyone can do and have the least amount of impact. It's simply a lazy way to assuage white guilt.


You don't get to say why someone else feels a particular way, the same way you don't get to say what offends someone else. Some of us do truly believe everyone should be treated fairly.

quote:
Originally posted by Caolin

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


Even if you're right -- why is it so bad to talk about improving things, instead of silently maintaining a status quo that demonizes and oppresses people for having a slightly different set of genes? Not everyone can change the world, but nothing's going to change until people realize there's a need for change.

And is it really a "conspicuous" expression when it's on topic in a discussion related to such?



Because this IS NOT the problem. Drow and Orcs are NOT the problem, putting black makeup on is NOT the problem, and being insulted by a TV show is NOT the problem. All this is is white people trying to make themselves feel better. That's it, that's all it is. You can snarkely throw out "Oh excuse us for trying to make the world better". But in reality you're taking an extreme position that does more harm than actual good.



You obviously have no idea what's going on if you think it's not a problem to perpetuate racism, and if you think it's an extreme position to not do racist things, you're part of the reason we're having this discussion.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9009 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  11:54:52  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Ps: no idea why this now has a differenz color, that was not intended



Just a heads up, so you understand, there's a flaw or somesuch in the forum's software that after so many replies on replies that it suddenly switches the color.

Continue the conversation, consider me to not have butted in on you. I'm staying out of it, other than to say I'm flabbergasted at the direction this country is going, after having been called out by those who are so "tolerant" themselves for using a term that I don't consider offensive since I know black people who refer to themselves as colored.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3936 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  12:15:23  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message
*changing gears*

So I'm really interested in seeing how they're going to start portraying Orcs, their culture, and and society now? I've always been a fan of the warcraft genre and the lore behind their games, so I hope they draw some parallels between the orcs of that franchise and that of D&D. Meaning strong familial clans, strong ties to nature and spiritualism, pretty good at agriculture, and as a twist - pretty ingenious craftsmanship, especially with fortifications. While it may not look pretty, it's going to last and works well. Living in inhospitable lands should force them to be more creative, think outside the box, adapt and overcome obstacles.

I'm tired of the "big dumb brutes, might makes right, obsession with one evil God" route that they continually perpetuate.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Edited by - Diffan on 30 Jun 2020 12:16:34
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33623 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  12:36:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

*changing gears*

So I'm really interested in seeing how they're going to start portraying Orcs, their culture, and and society now? I've always been a fan of the warcraft genre and the lore behind their games, so I hope they draw some parallels between the orcs of that franchise and that of D&D. Meaning strong familial clans, strong ties to nature and spiritualism, pretty good at agriculture, and as a twist - pretty ingenious craftsmanship, especially with fortifications. While it may not look pretty, it's going to last and works well. Living in inhospitable lands should force them to be more creative, think outside the box, adapt and overcome obstacles.

I'm tired of the "big dumb brutes, might makes right, obsession with one evil God" route that they continually perpetuate.



Unfortunately, given that it's WotC, they'll likely just handwave it and say "it's always been like this, you just didn't know."

Given the existing lore about orcs, I think it would be hard to make a transition on them without some radical change to the situation -- at least, while maintaining continuity. I've long been of the opinion that an isolated group of orcs could change far more readily than a group of orcs that's in the same situation they've been in for millennia.

Maybe a plague, or something, that drastically lowered their numbers... That would break the cycle of overpopulating until it was time to form a horde, and the reduced numbers would mean they'd have to find other ways to survive. Something like that would give orcs a chance to change directions, and not having issues with orcs for a couple generations would make their neighbors more accepting of them, going forward.

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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3134 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  12:46:12  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message
Sorry Diffan... ;)

Wow, guys. Claiming Star Trek is an impossible utopia and claiming that it's not realistic because there is no religion, both show some true colors. For Star Trek was written to be a goal to look toward as humanity grows out of the infancy of hatred and greed and takes its place among the stars. Fortunately, it was not written for people that defend discrimination, nor those that believe any voice against a certain belief system, which isn't even believed by 15.3% of the world's population (Catholics/World Population), so there's no reason for you guys to worry about joining the rest of us that are striving for that world.

I mean are you really fantasy fans? Most fantasy stories are about heroes trying to change the world, even if it's just one village at a time. You guys just seem to be players that want to "kill them orcs" because you're living out some dream of being able to enforce your will on other people, sometimes "for their own good". I'm thoroughly done with dealing with any of you that have (for 12 pages now) defended systemic racism and discrimination all so you can feel superior in a game. That doesn't mean I'm going to stop fighting you and posting here everytime you post, it just means I'm no longer assuming you are looking out for anyone buy yourselves.

Sidenote: I've never really seen Evil on the Alignment grid as being about destroying the world or somesuch, I've kind of always defined Good as being selfless and caring about others above yourself, and Evil as being the opposite: narcissistic and only caring about yourself and what power you can gather over others. Guess which camp you guys are falling in.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

575 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  13:28:20  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

And the quota to define whether you're a jerk based on heritage is what? Among 5.4 million norwegians you can certainly find a couple dozends insulted by a Minnesota football Team calling themselves wikings



Now who's taken extreme positions? Where is the insult in referencing a historic group in a non-negative way?

You and Ashe? You keep saying if it offends / is a jerk pull it, yet give no definition how many dozend/hundred/thousand people are required to be offended before it meets this criteria.

Because you'll find small nunbers of people offended by almost everything.


The Logo of the wikings is as much a carricature as the Logo of the redskins. The later is facing critic on a regular basis
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33623 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  14:00:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek


quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Now who's taken extreme positions? Where is the insult in referencing a historic group in a non-negative way?

You and Ashe? You keep saying if it offends / is a jerk pull it, yet give no definition how many dozend/hundred/thousand people are required to be offended before it meets this criteria.


You're deliberately misstating things, here. We're saying if it offends entire ethnicities, then it's an issue.

How it's an extreme position to say that maybe we shouldn't offend millions is utterly beyond me.

quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

Because you'll find small nunbers of people offended by almost everything.


And we're not talking about small numbers, nor are we talking about any possible source of offence. We're talking about racist statements/actions/caricatures that refer to millions of people.

You are deliberately being obtuse if you can't see that.

quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

The Logo of the wikings is as much a carricature as the Logo of the redskins. The later is facing critic on a regular basis



The latter is facing criticism because it's racist.

I've never heard a single person say that the word "Viking" was offensive. It's a widely-used historical term that is not used to demean people. It is not at all the same thing, and trying to claim otherwise is a strawman.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3134 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  14:28:11  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message
Oh, don't try convincing them Wooly, they won't change. They forget things like the fact that Christianity wasn't mainstream until the white Romans embraced it after killing off the brown founders of the religion. Or that the Confederacy seceded because we asked them to give up slavery and they threw a tantrum, then apologists came in later and claimed it was a fight of state's rights.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

575 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  15:10:56  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You're deliberately misstating things, here. We're saying if it offends entire ethnicities, then it's an issue.

And what defines whether something is offending entirr ethnicities?

Just as nothing doesn't offend anyon, nothing does offend everyone.

So how many % or just # of an ethinie need to feel offended before it becomes relevant.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

How it's an extreme position to say that maybe we shouldn't offend millions is utterly beyond me.
But are millions offended or just a couple of hundred thousands? And what if 10 million are offended, 10 million are "meh" and 10 million are mot offended? All of the same depicted ethinie?

Edited by - Mirtek on 30 Jun 2020 15:12:09
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33623 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  15:58:49  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
You're seriously asking how many people you can be racist to before it's a problem?

Just stop. You want to be a racist, take it somewhere else.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3134 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  16:55:49  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You're deliberately misstating things, here. We're saying if it offends entire ethnicities, then it's an issue.

And what defines whether something is offending entirr ethnicities?

Just as nothing doesn't offend anyon, nothing does offend everyone.

So how many % or just # of an ethinie need to feel offended before it becomes relevant.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

How it's an extreme position to say that maybe we shouldn't offend millions is utterly beyond me.
But are millions offended or just a couple of hundred thousands? And what if 10 million are offended, 10 million are "meh" and 10 million are mot offended? All of the same depicted ethinie?


1 person of that ethnicity.

And learn to spell, you ignorant, racist jackass.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 30 Jun 2020 16:56:54
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33623 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  17:08:19  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
I'm not going to condone racism, but I am going to ask that we tone down the language, somewhat.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9009 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  17:35:00  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You're deliberately misstating things, here. We're saying if it offends entire ethnicities, then it's an issue.

And what defines whether something is offending entirr ethnicities?

Just as nothing doesn't offend anyon, nothing does offend everyone.

So how many % or just # of an ethinie need to feel offended before it becomes relevant.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

How it's an extreme position to say that maybe we shouldn't offend millions is utterly beyond me.
But are millions offended or just a couple of hundred thousands? And what if 10 million are offended, 10 million are "meh" and 10 million are mot offended? All of the same depicted ethinie?


1 person of that ethnicity.

And learn to spell, you ignorant, racist jackass.



Whoa....

Now I'm going to speak up even though I said I was done. What I've said in this thread I've tried to be respectful and polite. When someone explained something to me in such a way as to make things abundantly clear, I responded in a way to be what I felt as appreciative.

Then because of a simple word choice, that I clarified I wasn't even sure if it was what people want to be called nowadays, I was called out by two individuals who are supposed to be amazingly tolerant. It seems to me that the "tolerant" here want to name call and bully when they don't get their own way (as I was also called something like a queerophobe as well). Furthermore, they don't acknowledge when they themselves step beyond the bounds. Blame blame blame and don't accept responsibility seems to be the name of the game.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Caolin
Senior Scribe

741 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  17:57:13  Show Profile Send Caolin a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Whoa....

Now I'm going to speak up even though I said I was done. What I've said in this thread I've tried to be respectful and polite. When someone explained something to me in such a way as to make things abundantly clear, I responded in a way to be what I felt as appreciative.

Then because of a simple word choice, that I clarified I wasn't even sure if it was what people want to be called nowadays, I was called out by two individuals who are supposed to be amazingly tolerant. It seems to me that the "tolerant" here want to name call and bully when they don't get their own way (as I was also called something like a queerophobe as well). Furthermore, they don't acknowledge when they themselves step beyond the bounds. Blame blame blame and don't accept responsibility seems to be the name of the game.



This ^
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Caolin
Senior Scribe

741 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  18:14:24  Show Profile Send Caolin a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You don't get to say why someone else feels a particular way, the same way you don't get to say what offends someone else. Some of us do truly believe everyone should be treated fairly.



But I do get to say that I don't care about some feelings being hurt. I get to say that I'm not going to accept every instance of hurt feelings and taking of offense. To anyone who says drow makeup is offensive I say bullshit. Context matters. You want to accept everyone's hurt feelings and every instance of being offended? Fine. But I'm not going to just sit here and let you decide what is and isn't acceptable to me. I'm going to voice my opinion and I'm going to speak out against this kind of censorship.


quote:

You obviously have no idea what's going on if you think it's not a problem to perpetuate racism, and if you think it's an extreme position to not do racist things, you're part of the reason we're having this discussion.



No, that's just your opinion. You have a very broad definition of what entails racism and it's a definition I don't share. What's sad is that you and others are so willing to label anyone who disagrees with you a racist or "part of the problem". As I said, it makes discussing anything with any of you impossible. So I'm done discussing. This is how I feel, I'm going to continue to state my views and I refuse to be brow beat for them.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33623 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  18:47:38  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You don't get to say why someone else feels a particular way, the same way you don't get to say what offends someone else. Some of us do truly believe everyone should be treated fairly.



But I do get to say that I don't care about some feelings being hurt. I get to say that I'm not going to accept every instance of hurt feelings and taking of offense. To anyone who says drow makeup is offensive I say bullshit. Context matters. You want to accept everyone's hurt feelings and every instance of being offended? Fine. But I'm not going to just sit here and let you decide what is and isn't acceptable to me. I'm going to voice my opinion and I'm going to speak out against this kind of censorship.


quote:

You obviously have no idea what's going on if you think it's not a problem to perpetuate racism, and if you think it's an extreme position to not do racist things, you're part of the reason we're having this discussion.



No, that's just your opinion. You have a very broad definition of what entails racism and it's a definition I don't share. What's sad is that you and others are so willing to label anyone who disagrees with you a racist or "part of the problem". As I said, it makes discussing anything with any of you impossible. So I'm done discussing. This is how I feel, I'm going to continue to state my views and I refuse to be brow beat for them.



Context does not matter if someone is insulted. It doesn't matter if you care about others or not, what matters is that person and how they feel they are treated.

If you don't care, that's on you. And it certainly does not say anything positive about you that you think it's acceptable to do and say racist things.

It's not censorship, though, to tell you that your actions are not acceptable. It's not censorship for a company to decide they're not going to publish something or endorse anything that people say is racist. If you think that's censorship, you need to learn what censorship really is.

And I'm not labeling you a racist because you disagree with me. I'm not saying you're part of the problem because of a difference of opinion. When millions of people say there's a problem and you say "I don't think there is so you're wrong" -- then that makes you part of the problem.

When you deny racism and ask how many people it is acceptable to be racist to, that makes you racist. You don't want that label, don't act like it.

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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3134 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  20:01:44  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message
I apologize for the language. Most of it is because of the level of frustration I'm feeling when pointing out things that make the world better and getting responses that imply it's perfectly fine as it is. I've been trying to be an ally for a long time and it never feels like it's enough anymore.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33623 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  20:22:44  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
And with that, I think it's time we acknowledge the inevitable conclusion: this discussion is going nowhere.

We will conclude with this earlier post, that I think says it all very well:

quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

(snip)

Positions can be analyzed to determine if they are intolerant. Someone then calling for tolerance of that position is acting in bad faith, and their argument need not be given any weight.

An intolerant position isn't just a difference of opinion. I like the color green; someone else who doesn't has a difference of opinion. No one is hurt by either position. We can respect that difference of opinion and agree to disagree. But if a position does inflict harm, it has moved beyond that. If I "respect that difference of opinion" then I am enabling harm to others; their intolerance has thus rendered my tolerance void. If I do not wish harm to come to others, but willingly let others commit that harm, my position is meaningless. Respecting that "difference of opinion" is no different from allowing that harm to continue.

What people have repeatedly said in this thread is that even if the portrayals of drow, orcs, and others weren't *intended* to be harmful, they are harmful, and we should fix that. As you said, thought is not a crime. Acting on that thought can be, though, because it is the results and actions that matter. The intentions of the people behind the creation of the drow, orcs, Vistani, etc. don't actually matter. The results of what their creations do.

Jeff


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