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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  16:43:09  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
'Proxies' are 'already dead' Chosen (In other words, 'Saints').

I always liked the word 'Proxy', and for awhile I was using it as another 'catch-all' (umbrella) term for 'that level of power between mortals and gods' (which would include demigods, but also things like Celestials and powerful fiends). But then 4e gave me the really cool term 'Exarch' (the one thing 4e did REALLY well was re-name already existing stuff, or taken already-existing names and apply them to new stuff LOL), and that works perfectly as the umbrella-term I was needing. The kind of being that gods - and many mortals - would know is not a god, but ignorant (savage/barbarian/etc.) would not, and may assume they were dealing with a (true) god.

So now when I need a word to call an archfiend who has his own cults, I just say 'Exarch' and I'm good. They're the 'minor leagues' that the majors sometimes take their players from. I would also lump-in all these 'Quasi'-gods, and manifestations as well. One of the rules of demipowers (which carries over to exarchs now) is that they get only ONE avatar, so when you are dealing with them, you are dealing with THEM (not just a 'shadow clone' ).

Hmmmm... did I just establish that Naruto is some sort of uber-Greater God?
Maybe those things would just qualify as 'lesser manifestations' (I hate having to use 'lesser' and 'greater' for them - I wish the original writers of the OE had come up with a better term; heck, even my 'Ubertar' is better). The Egyptians just used 'Pharaoh' that way (to describe a 'living god'), but in our case, thats just too RW. Pharotar? Thats just as bad as 'Ubdertar'. Incarnation? Thats WAAAAY better! Why aren't we using that? Why do you keep it separate from 'manifestations'? (aside from the fact that a RW 'manifestation' can be anything, even something tiny and pretty insignificant).


EDIT:
Oh, and good term to use for people with a 'divine' bloodline is 'Exalted'. So someone who is the descendant of an Incarnation (that procreated with mortals).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Aug 2017 16:46:03
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  17:31:41  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

'Proxies' are 'already dead' Chosen (In other words, 'Saints').

I always liked the word 'Proxy', and for awhile I was using it as another 'catch-all' (umbrella) term for 'that level of power between mortals and gods' (which would include demigods, but also things like Celestials and powerful fiends). But then 4e gave me the really cool term 'Exarch' (the one thing 4e did REALLY well was re-name already existing stuff, or taken already-existing names and apply them to new stuff LOL), and that works perfectly as the umbrella-term I was needing. The kind of being that gods - and many mortals - would know is not a god, but ignorant (savage/barbarian/etc.) would not, and may assume they were dealing with a (true) god.

So now when I need a word to call an archfiend who has his own cults, I just say 'Exarch' and I'm good. They're the 'minor leagues' that the majors sometimes take their players from. I would also lump-in all these 'Quasi'-gods, and manifestations as well. One of the rules of demipowers (which carries over to exarchs now) is that they get only ONE avatar, so when you are dealing with them, you are dealing with THEM (not just a 'shadow clone' ).

Hmmmm... did I just establish that Naruto is some sort of uber-Greater God?
Maybe those things would just qualify as 'lesser manifestations' (I hate having to use 'lesser' and 'greater' for them - I wish the original writers of the OE had come up with a better term; heck, even my 'Ubertar' is better). The Egyptians just used 'Pharaoh' that way (to describe a 'living god'), but in our case, thats just too RW. Pharotar? Thats just as bad as 'Ubdertar'. Incarnation? Thats WAAAAY better! Why aren't we using that? Why do you keep it separate from 'manifestations'? (aside from the fact that a RW 'manifestation' can be anything, even something tiny and pretty insignificant).


EDIT:
Oh, and good term to use for people with a 'divine' bloodline is 'Exalted'. So someone who is the descendant of an Incarnation (that procreated with mortals).



Why do I specifically separate incarnation and manifestation? Because they are specific terms in Old Empires. The manifestation could almost be interchanged with the old version of demigod, [b] EXCEPT that even though these beings are bound to Toril, they can in fact have the power levels of a greater deity. [b] I'm betting you already know this answer, but for those that don't, pasting where it came from. It should be noted that in the Old Empires, we were given stats for both a manifestation AND incarnation of the deity.



To understand the gods, it is necessary to understand a number of basic concepts. The true gods of Mulhorand, Egypt, and the other cultures on other worlds that employ this pantheon live in the outer planes.

However, this pantheon prefers (this was later explained with the godwall) to dwell physically at a holy place within this plane. This physical form of the deity is called a manifestation. It is immortal,
very powerful (sometimes of Greater Power status), and is the master
of that deity#146;s affairs on the plane. For most purposes, the manifestation of a deity can be considered to be the deity, with one essential difference. A deity who leaves the plane may pass on the power of his manifestation to another; when the manifestation of Re
(also known as Ra) was slain during the Orcgate Wars, he passed on his power to the manifestation of Horus, who took the name Horus-Re.

<snip>

Another important concept is that of an incarnation. The incarnation is a mortal form of a deity. An incarnation is very powerful, equal to a high-level character, occasionally possessing minor divine powers, but still capable of being slain (Tholaunt, an incarnation of
Anhur, was slain 30 years ago by Valerios of Pyardos, one of the Tharchions of Thay). Incarnations compose most of a pharaoh#146;s royal family, but the eldest is always an incarnation of Horus-Re. An incarnation has the general temperament of a manifestation, but it is not under the direct control of the deity and can be affected by mortal weaknesses and foibles.



Proxy... yes, that's another good additional one to separate living and dead chosen. I don't remember much on them, but they could act as the "hand of the god" in certain situations, etc.. couldn't they?

I like Exalted as well for maybe "potential" incarnations. Because not everyone in a Mulhorandi royal house became an incarnation. Usually maybe 1 or 2 per generation (maybe even less... we're never really given numbers). In like Pathfinder, they had their special rules for leveling epic type characters, and this might "enable" someone to pursue that path.

I would also notate one other thing regarding incarnations and manifestations in Mulhorand. The original listing in Old empires ONLY gave manifestation/incarnation entries for Anhur, Horus-Re, Isis, Nephthys, Osiris, Set, and Thoth. It listed Hathor, Geb, Sebek, and Mask as "other deities but we don't get any stats for them. In addition, neither Mask, Geb, or Sebek are given a noble house name, yet all other male deities that are listed with manifestations/incarnations have a house name.... except Set who is specifically noted as NOT having a house name because he is outcast. This particular wording makes me wonder about whether these "other deities" are in fact prime-bound manifestations pre-ToT. We know Mask isn't. We've found out that Sebek/Sebakar is an "Archfey" and not a manifestation. So, perhaps Geb and Hathor are in fact regular "disembodied gods" pre-ToT, or they are some kind of primordial posing as the deity.


Also, I just recalled this from rereading Powers and Pantheons for post ToT

Effectively the Mulhorandi gods are now governed by the same rules as the Faerunian pantheon. However, each remaining Mulhorandi deity does maintain a connection with its primary former living incarnation that allows that mortal to easily summon an avatar of the deity to whom the incarnation was formerly connected. (the relatively youthful pharaoh of Mulhorand, Horustep III, is taxing the patience of Horus-Re by demanding the constant presence of an avatar of Horus-Re near him).


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14389 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  19:21:36  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, I think I only read-through Old Empires once, many years ago. I didn't much care for it. Since that time, I have referenced bits of it, here and there, when the need arose, but mostly I've been relying on newer sources.

To be perfectly honest, I was unaware (since that first reading, and I may not have even caught it then) that there was a difference between 'Manifestation' and 'Incarnation' - I've been lumping them together for the past 30 years.

Like I said, you never stop learning stuff about the Realms.
Thank You.


For the record (and you're probably NOT going to like this), I've been in favor of simplifying certain lore over the years (certainly not all of it), and I would merge the two together at this point, because it all seems overly confusing. Just use 'Incarnation', and say its one thing - the actual god merged with a living, breathing mortal, and get rid of the whole notion there is another 'copy' of him somewhere, that is also not the 'real' god. Because these gods STILL EXIT in other Crystal Spheres, and in Planescape (Great Wheel). Those are just Realms-specific Avatars merged with mortals - what I dubbed 'Ubertars'. In most spheres, when a deity desires to go multispheric, it has to permanently (as 'permanent' as stuff gets in D&D) shear-off some of its power (DvR's) and create a self-aware, independent version of itself. Not a 'copy' - more like Mitosis occurs.

Then it goes on its merry way, and hopefully, in time, it firmly establishes itself on the new world. If not, it withers and dies. No big.

Although I am not sure how that works in regards to the astral - I don't think a multispheric 'copy' (Ubertar? Ur-clone? Ęspect?) would leave-behind a comatose god; we'd wind up with millions of those things (all the failed attempts). Maybe that's where vestiges come from? Orphaned Avatars?

Anyhow, I'm not sure why Ao felt the need to force just the Mulan Gods (note, the K-T gods all came over from 'elsewhere' and were never forced to do this... or were they? ) to become 'mortal' - its completely arbitrary. My thoughts are they actually preferred it that way (they used that system in Egypt, after all - the Pharoahs were 'living gods'). Also, it may have helped them keep from getting 'eaten' early on, by other Torillian Powers (this is why its so damn hard to start as a new god on a world: Unless you have a powerful 'patron' already there, you'll probably just be killed-off, one way or another, before you get the chance to gain enough power to establish yourself firmly.).

And as I said in another thread today, a lot of times its that same 'patron' that "kills you and takes your stuff" in the end.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Aug 2017 19:23:38
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1177 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  22:34:05  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Manifestations were mortal in the sense of ahumaniod form that could be killed in battle, no discorperation, but they did not age.

Incarnations age and die like mortals, to be reborn endlessly, until the Manifestation is killed.

But Incarnations can be passed onto another God.

Example Ishtar's Manifestation decided to leave the Realms not long after Enlil left.

Before leaving she passed on her Incarnationd mantle to Isis, who was worshipped as Ishtar in Unther after that.

So Isis had her Manifestation (ageless), her Isis incarnation (Reincarnating), and Ishtar's Incarnation (Reincarnating).

Its weirdly more like Buddhism and Hinduism in some ways, then ancient Egyptian Religion. Its interesting how its simular yet different.

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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1177 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  22:47:09  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also note that the only Mulhorandi God to really poke her head out often is Bast (Sharess), and even then likely only because she absorbed Felidea and later Zandilar causing a partial personality shift.

The rest were busy getting rid of the Planar Barrier, they only really came of seclusion to keep Mulhorand from being destroyed once Skuld and Mulhorand were founded.

So Mulhorand largely conqueored its empire thanks to the incarnations and military, if the Manifestation had been more invovled, Mulhorand may have been able to conqueor most of the Realms.

Basts manifestation (with help from merging with Zandilar and Felidea) wad able to drive off the drow armies of Lloth from the Yeirwood with help from the locals.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  23:01:51  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Actually, I think I only read-through Old Empires once, many years ago. I didn't much care for it. Since that time, I have referenced bits of it, here and there, when the need arose, but mostly I've been relying on newer sources.

To be perfectly honest, I was unaware (since that first reading, and I may not have even caught it then) that there was a difference between 'Manifestation' and 'Incarnation' - I've been lumping them together for the past 30 years.

Like I said, you never stop learning stuff about the Realms.
Thank You.


For the record (and you're probably NOT going to like this), I've been in favor of simplifying certain lore over the years (certainly not all of it), and I would merge the two together at this point, because it all seems overly confusing. Just use 'Incarnation', and say its one thing - the actual god merged with a living, breathing mortal, and get rid of the whole notion there is another 'copy' of him somewhere, that is also not the 'real' god. Because these gods STILL EXIT in other Crystal Spheres, and in Planescape (Great Wheel). Those are just Realms-specific Avatars merged with mortals - what I dubbed 'Ubertars'. In most spheres, when a deity desires to go multispheric, it has to permanently (as 'permanent' as stuff gets in D&D) shear-off some of its power (DvR's) and create a self-aware, independent version of itself. Not a 'copy' - more like Mitosis occurs.

Then it goes on its merry way, and hopefully, in time, it firmly establishes itself on the new world. If not, it withers and dies. No big.

Although I am not sure how that works in regards to the astral - I don't think a multispheric 'copy' (Ubertar? Ur-clone? Ęspect?) would leave-behind a comatose god; we'd wind up with millions of those things (all the failed attempts). Maybe that's where vestiges come from? Orphaned Avatars?

Anyhow, I'm not sure why Ao felt the need to force just the Mulan Gods (note, the K-T gods all came over from 'elsewhere' and were never forced to do this... or were they? ) to become 'mortal' - its completely arbitrary. My thoughts are they actually preferred it that way (they used that system in Egypt, after all - the Pharoahs were 'living gods'). Also, it may have helped them keep from getting 'eaten' early on, by other Torillian Powers (this is why its so damn hard to start as a new god on a world: Unless you have a powerful 'patron' already there, you'll probably just be killed-off, one way or another, before you get the chance to gain enough power to establish yourself firmly.).

And as I said in another thread today, a lot of times its that same 'patron' that "kills you and takes your stuff" in the end.




Yeah, your right, I don't like combining them. With this setup, you can have god-kings (i.e. descendants who just "have power" invested in them), but at the same time the deity can't exert their will over them. The deity wants them, because it encourages worshippers without costing near as much as an avatar, plus it skirts things that may just allow other gods to go "well, he did this, I can now meddle as well".

By the way, I would probably recommend a ruling to only be able to make incarnations IF you are a manifestation (and thus, once the Mulhorandi gods became disembodied, they couldn't make any new ones but were allowed to maintain contact with one that they had already made.... so that the next generation wouldn't have anymore incarnations). Does it make the game more complex? Yes, but sometimes complex allows for more interesting interactions.

Oh, and this could ALSO make the statement in the SCAG about the god-kings being weaker than ever make absolute since.... if Horustep III say were no longer the Pharaoh in 1385 DR (he would have been 38, but Set's followers or someone else MAY have killed him... we know they wanted to assassinate him in 1358 and they had assassinated the previous Pharaoh). Essentially, if Horustep III somehow got assassinated, then the next Pharaoh would not have been an incarnation... he would have been a regular human.

Hmmm, and IF the transferring of the Palace of the Purple Emperor did "displace" Skuld and maybe force the current Pharaoh (Horustep III) into Abeir, then when the High Imaskari show up, the current Pharaoh would have been one of his children, barely an adult (late teens, early 20's), with none of the incarnation powers, and only the Pharaoh for literally days. Or if things happened a little differently, maybe Horustep III was killed as I said above by another faction, and the new Pharaoh had only been on the throne a few months or maybe a couple years. I wouldn't be surprised if some follower of old Unther killed Pharaoh Horustep III just out of sheer hate... hell, having Lord Shuruppak "the Reaper" who was Gilgeam's chosen before said god's death... and who was fricking powerful and insane and out killing all of "Unther's Enemies". Yeah, I'm really liking that idea what with Shuruppak being a level 30 character in the early 1370's... so in say 1385 maybe he even added a level or 3 more. I can picture it, Shuruppak taking on both Horsutep III and an avatar of Horus-Re, killing the god king and somehow destroying his soul too, and then either escaping or killing the avatar too or dying at the hands of the avatar

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  23:19:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oooooo.... the kewl to this may be driving me here .... but

What if the "Son of Victory" that is this new "Gilgeam" isn't an actual son and is actually his former chosen Shuruppak "the reaper". The man was supposed to be flipping nuts, infatuated with restoring Unther... he was mainly a fighter so not a strong spellcaster (he had 7 levels of wizard, 20 levels of fighter, and 3 of rogue in the epic level handbook). I could see it if he were transferred to Abeir, and perhaps having been a former chosen, maybe he is still immortal or aging slowly. He may even be invested with some of Gilgeam's divine power.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2017 :  00:18:27  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

The rest were busy getting rid of the Planar Barrier, they only really came of seclusion to keep Mulhorand from being destroyed once Skuld and Mulhorand were founded.

So Mulhorand largely conqueored its empire thanks to the incarnations and military, if the Manifestation had been more invovled, Mulhorand may have been able to conqueor most of the Realms.


Yes, this is exactly the reason that I asked the question about whether we are dealing with incarnations or manifestations. Like Markus said people have used them interchangeably for a long time, but canonically they are very different for all the reasons that Sleyvas and yourself have pointed out.

Unlike the past, if we are dealing with manifestations, they are not working to rid themselves of the Gods Wall. The Gods Wall does not exist. They are apparently choosing to exist in the Realms as manifestations--if they are indeed manifestations. This would be an insane power level for the Mulhorandi to have--they would not have any serious rivals in the region.

For that reason, I would argue that we should assume that we are dealing with incarnations rather than manifestations. The deities are not returning as manifestations--except perhaps Gilgeam (though that story is more complicated)--the deities are essentially making incarnations which would be roughly on par with deific Chosen. They might involve aspects of both, and it might not work exactly as it did in the past... I am sure something can be worked out. It would be a mistake to give Mulhorand super weapons that they could use to conquer everyone around them rather easily.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1177 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2017 :  17:06:27  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mulhorand crushed Imaskar in no time flat, so so brutally and quickly that it was already too late for the Dragonborn of Tymanther reinforcements.

Still Mulhorand is caught between the Dragon Princes on one Side in Morgholm and Sempar, and on the other Unther with its own Godking who is allies with Grazzt.

Although if the Mulhorand Gods started running amok other Gods will intervene like the Orc Pantheon did during the Orcgate Wars.

Edited by - Gyor on 14 Aug 2017 18:05:19
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2017 :  19:01:57  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

The rest were busy getting rid of the Planar Barrier, they only really came of seclusion to keep Mulhorand from being destroyed once Skuld and Mulhorand were founded.

So Mulhorand largely conqueored its empire thanks to the incarnations and military, if the Manifestation had been more invovled, Mulhorand may have been able to conqueor most of the Realms.


Yes, this is exactly the reason that I asked the question about whether we are dealing with incarnations or manifestations. Like Markus said people have used them interchangeably for a long time, but canonically they are very different for all the reasons that Sleyvas and yourself have pointed out.

Unlike the past, if we are dealing with manifestations, they are not working to rid themselves of the Gods Wall. The Gods Wall does not exist. They are apparently choosing to exist in the Realms as manifestations--if they are indeed manifestations. This would be an insane power level for the Mulhorandi to have--they would not have any serious rivals in the region.

For that reason, I would argue that we should assume that we are dealing with incarnations rather than manifestations. The deities are not returning as manifestations--except perhaps Gilgeam (though that story is more complicated)--the deities are essentially making incarnations which would be roughly on par with deific Chosen. They might involve aspects of both, and it might not work exactly as it did in the past... I am sure something can be worked out. It would be a mistake to give Mulhorand super weapons that they could use to conquer everyone around them rather easily.



I wouldn't be opposed to there being both incarnations and manifestations again. The caveat would have to be though that Ao forces manifestations to NOT act against mortals directly and they must try to rule their people through incarnations. This would effectively tie their hands. In the case of the overthrow of the Imaskari empire, Ao may have allowed the godly interaction against mortals simply because the Imaskari were getting so dangerous that they were messing with his god barrier... they were messing with Pandorym... essentially, in Ao's view the Imaskari were possibly becoming a threat to the world itself.

Now, why would these gods choose to stay in mortal form? That's a good question, and maybe it does come down to incarnations? Maybe they can make more incarnations by giving up the power needed to be a disembodied god. So, in order to protect their people, they create new god-kings from their descendants to protect their empire... and then hide away in their pyramids and hope no one comes to kill them.. Still, for the most part, it would be the god-kings and not the manifestations that parties would interact with.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2017 :  19:06:21  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Mulhorand crushed Imaskar in no time flat, so so brutally and quickly that it was already too late for the Dragonborn of Tymanther reinforcements.

Still Mulhorand is caught between the Dragon Princes on one Side in Morgholm and Sempar, and on the other Unther with its own Godking who is allies with Grazzt.

Although if the Mulhorand Gods started running amok other Gods will intervene like the Orc Pantheon did during the Orcgate Wars.



One thing to bear in mind with High Imaskar is population. I think even its capital city only had like 18,000 people. Gheldaneth, which was pretty much mostly Mulan outnumbered this amount. Then if tens of thousands of Mulhorandi return from Abeir, it wouldn't be hard to overwhelm Skyclave if they could find a way to reach it.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14389 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2017 :  20:44:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

The rest were busy getting rid of the Planar Barrier, they only really came of seclusion to keep Mulhorand from being destroyed once Skuld and Mulhorand were founded.

So Mulhorand largely conqueored its empire thanks to the incarnations and military, if the Manifestation had been more invovled, Mulhorand may have been able to conqueor most of the Realms.


Yes, this is exactly the reason that I asked the question about whether we are dealing with incarnations or manifestations. Like Markus said people have used them interchangeably for a long time, but canonically they are very different for all the reasons that Sleyvas and yourself have pointed out.

Unlike the past, if we are dealing with manifestations, they are not working to rid themselves of the Gods Wall. The Gods Wall does not exist. They are apparently choosing to exist in the Realms as manifestations--if they are indeed manifestations. This would be an insane power level for the Mulhorandi to have--they would not have any serious rivals in the region.

For that reason, I would argue that we should assume that we are dealing with incarnations rather than manifestations. The deities are not returning as manifestations--except perhaps Gilgeam (though that story is more complicated)--the deities are essentially making incarnations which would be roughly on par with deific Chosen. They might involve aspects of both, and it might not work exactly as it did in the past... I am sure something can be worked out. It would be a mistake to give Mulhorand super weapons that they could use to conquer everyone around them rather easily.
This struck a chord in my head - shouldn't we just say that 'Incarnations' are just another variety of Chosen (Exarch) at this point? Basically, a Chosen with less free will (perhaps a 'conjoined' personality', or the god is treating the mortal as a puppet, pulling the strings, or the god is just an irritating 'voice' in the Incarnation's head, telling it what to do all the time, but they can ignore if they chose to?). For that last one, anyone familiar with old DC comics and Firestorm - like that (his old professor was like his 'conscience' inside his head). So basically a Chosen where the god is much more 'hands on'.

As for the Manifestations, I agree they should be gone as of 5e. And not even because they've always made the whole thing more convoluted than it needed to be, but just because without the Godwall, there is absolutely no reason for that to be a thing anymore. Just create another Divine Realm on The Great Tree (or leave them where they belong in The Great Wheel) and call it 'The Hall of Scarabs' or some such (mostly, ya know, because 'The Great Pyramid' is taken LOL).


And I know I am sounding like a broken record, but the Old Empires needs a conjoined Pantheon, for no other reason than to provide a united front against the larger, stronger Faerūnian one. There could still be 'national' deities, like Glgeam, but the majority of them should be shared. And a death god - they need their own damn death god (unless we just steal Kelemvor and say they are calling him Anubis... after all, with all these Faerunian death-gods, he no longer serves a purpose anymore). Maybe given him a Mulanish alias, like Kelam-Bis.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Aug 2017 21:08:49
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
786 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2017 :  21:20:36  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Mulhorand crushed Imaskar in no time flat, so so brutally and quickly that it was already too late for the Dragonborn of Tymanther reinforcements.


In fact, there were no dragonborn reinforcements. Dragonborn deliberately cut diplomatic relationships with High Imaskar when Mulhorand rebelled. This is revealed in Ashes of the Tyrant (novel).

According to Uadjit (the Tymantheran ambassador in High Imaskar), this was just political savvyness: they wanted to know if Mulhorand will be a better neighbor than High Imaskar, but Uadjit also said that there is the possibility that some dragonborn elders haven't forgotten that High Imaskar promised military aid during the conflict between Tymanther and Chessenta (Brotherhood of the Griffon novels) and they failed to uphold that promise. So, Tymanther returned in kind when High Imaskar needed them most.

Ashes of the Tyrant also implies that the whole Mulhorandi rebellion lasted at least a few months (it was already happening when the plots of Ashes of the Tyrant and The Devil You Know started and ended, and the novel doesn't say when it ended. And that plot lasted a month). So, the rebellion wasn't as one sided as you are implying.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 14 Aug 2017 21:29:11
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 15 Aug 2017 :  00:21:40  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

The rest were busy getting rid of the Planar Barrier, they only really came of seclusion to keep Mulhorand from being destroyed once Skuld and Mulhorand were founded.

So Mulhorand largely conqueored its empire thanks to the incarnations and military, if the Manifestation had been more invovled, Mulhorand may have been able to conqueor most of the Realms.


Yes, this is exactly the reason that I asked the question about whether we are dealing with incarnations or manifestations. Like Markus said people have used them interchangeably for a long time, but canonically they are very different for all the reasons that Sleyvas and yourself have pointed out.

Unlike the past, if we are dealing with manifestations, they are not working to rid themselves of the Gods Wall. The Gods Wall does not exist. They are apparently choosing to exist in the Realms as manifestations--if they are indeed manifestations. This would be an insane power level for the Mulhorandi to have--they would not have any serious rivals in the region.

For that reason, I would argue that we should assume that we are dealing with incarnations rather than manifestations. The deities are not returning as manifestations--except perhaps Gilgeam (though that story is more complicated)--the deities are essentially making incarnations which would be roughly on par with deific Chosen. They might involve aspects of both, and it might not work exactly as it did in the past... I am sure something can be worked out. It would be a mistake to give Mulhorand super weapons that they could use to conquer everyone around them rather easily.
This struck a chord in my head - shouldn't we just say that 'Incarnations' are just another variety of Chosen (Exarch) at this point? Basically, a Chosen with less free will (perhaps a 'conjoined' personality', or the god is treating the mortal as a puppet, pulling the strings, or the god is just an irritating 'voice' in the Incarnation's head, telling it what to do all the time, but they can ignore if they chose to?). For that last one, anyone familiar with old DC comics and Firestorm - like that (his old professor was like his 'conscience' inside his head). So basically a Chosen where the god is much more 'hands on'.

As for the Manifestations, I agree they should be gone as of 5e. And not even because they've always made the whole thing more convoluted than it needed to be, but just because without the Godwall, there is absolutely no reason for that to be a thing anymore. Just create another Divine Realm on The Great Tree (or leave them where they belong in The Great Wheel) and call it 'The Hall of Scarabs' or some such (mostly, ya know, because 'The Great Pyramid' is taken LOL).


And I know I am sounding like a broken record, but the Old Empires needs a conjoined Pantheon, for no other reason than to provide a united front against the larger, stronger Faerūnian one. There could still be 'national' deities, like Glgeam, but the majority of them should be shared. And a death god - they need their own damn death god (unless we just steal Kelemvor and say they are calling him Anubis... after all, with all these Faerunian death-gods, he no longer serves a purpose anymore). Maybe given him a Mulanish alias, like Kelam-Bis.



Like I said in the other thread. They have a death god. Osiris, the judge of the dead.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
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Posted - 16 Aug 2017 :  02:15:05  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We can always give them the Raven Queen.

BTW, I'm thinking in bringing Kuyutha to the Realms as well, but he is a little bit tricky. In the Nentir Vale mythos, he is supposedly the last paladin of the dragonborn empire of Arkhosia, who gathered and protected the last clans of that empire and Bahamut rewarded him by elevating him to exarch (demigod). So, while his inclusion will not upset the status quo of the Realms (he is just another demigod), I'm wondering how to bring him...

I'm debating whether to use the Planescape solution (he came from the Nentir Vale world), or giving him a Realmsian spin... though, seeign the history of dragonborns in the Realms, this will more... not difficult, but hardest at least.


Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 16 Aug 2017 02:16:08
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 16 Aug 2017 :  03:15:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Osiris is kind of lame as a death god. I want something more Anubisish.
Then again, its not like Kelemvor would have been any better - another 'snore fest'.

And BTW, I got the new /old (4e) continental outline done - its WAY cooler than WotC's map (because this one was based on the much bigger 1e/2e terrain layout). Got most of the river systems rerouted as well. Now I just have to find something to pour into all those huge holes (I hadn't realized Faerūn gained so many 'ass-cracks' LOL), chop some trees, and redo all my layer masks (yet again), and that should do. Push one button and the 1e/2e map turns into the 4e map. Then its on to the hybrid 5e map.

Can't wait to show a WIP - hopefully tomorrow - been VERY busy doing RW stuff. If I have the time, I might even throw some labels on this one (because unlike the other 'master map', I NEVER plan to do smaller, detailed ones of 4e).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
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Posted - 16 Aug 2017 :  04:01:56  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, I hope you can show us that WIP soon.

Well, reading the info that Tom shared to me, it seems that in Planescape, Anubis evolved into something beyond a god (after Osiris stoled his portfolios and left him to die in the Astral Plane... add jerk to Osiris' lame traits). Anubis somehow got powered up by the divine essence of dead powers (or still-living but nearly dead powers) who feared "desecration"(whatever this means for a dead power) and sought out a guardian... so, Anubis evolved into something that its "beyond a god". He is now the Guardian of Dead Powers in the Astral Plane (this is canon Planescape).

Buuuuuut, Anubis is in the list of Egyptian gods in 5e, so... what if the uncaring Uber-god (or whatever) wanted to know what the heck was happening in this sphere named Abeir-Toril, seeing many powers being killed in a really short period of time (ToT-Spellplague), so he created and created an incarnation through a descendant... or, better, created the Raven Queen, and as goddess of fate and death, and sent her (or the incarnation) to Toril to learn what was happening... mmm.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 16 Aug 2017 04:28:04
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sleyvas
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Posted - 16 Aug 2017 :  13:33:06  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
>>>This struck a chord in my head - shouldn't we just say that 'Incarnations' are just another variety of Chosen (Exarch) at this point?This struck a chord in my head - shouldn't we just say that 'Incarnations' are just another variety of Chosen (Exarch) at this point?>>>


The one big problem with this is that GENERALLY being a chosen gives a simple template with X,Y,Z extra powers and the character is assumed to be a relatively high level character. I honestly don't think some of the "Chosen" that were walking around during the Sundering were "Chosen". I bet several were incarnations.

Meanwhile, an incarnation is insta-leveled. You have a template per se, but you instantly have this huge power bonus. I would say that they don't stack as well (i.e. you'd have to be careful if the incarnation actually levels as a character as well.. and while I see extra hit dice as being ok, there might be some class abilities that maybe won't on a case by case basis). To be clear here, we'd be talking things like an 11 year old kid who suddenly has like 20 hit dice, and possibly a strength of 20-22 or somesuch. They also get spellcasting ability equivalent to X, Y,Z kind of casters maybe of A,B,C levels each. If anything, perhaps an incarnation might be better called the same things as a weakened avatar, BUT with free will, but it would be best if they weren't THAT powerful.


Just to give an example, here's the 2e stat block of an incarnation of Horus-Re. Bear in mind, that in the below the maximum strength a GOD could have was 25 back then, and the strength of 21 was Frost Giant Strength level (strength 23 now). A lot of this would get changed around now to have like natural armor, bonus hit dice instead of a set hit points, probably like a huge bonus to stats instead of set stats (like +8 or so to up to 4 stats). But the main thing was killing an incarnation was a BIG DEAL. It also explains why no matter what level their common citizens became, there was never an overthrow of the Pharaonic families. They didn't oppress their people per se, but they also did expect their will enacted. They did have a very caste system, though it was a lot more able to be upwardly mobile than say Unther.

Incarnation
AC: +1
MOVE: 15
HIT POINTS: 150
THAC0: 6
#AT: 2
DMG/ATT: 1d6 + 12/1d6 + 12
MR: 50%
CLASSES: Fighter 15, Priest 14, Mage 16
STR 21(+4, +9) DEX 22 CON 21 INT 21
WIS 20 CHA 21
Weapon: Staff +3
Armor: None (AC 4 is natural, plus DEX adjustment)
Other Items: Per individual incarnation
SA: The incarnation of Horus-Re has an awe effect, at will, that causes all creatures up to 4HD (or levels) to be stunned while in his presence.
SD: High Intelligence makes him immune to all illusion/phantasm spells of 3rd level or lower; high Wisdom grants
him immunity to the following spells: cause fear, charm person, command, friends, hypnotism, forget, hold person,
ray of enfeeblement, scare.

The manifestation of Horus-Re appears as a muscular man with the head of a hawk. The incarnations of Horus-Re are human in appearance but have facial features that suggest a hawk (sharp nose, glittering eyes). They may also speak with birds at will.

Incarnations
All have the following abilities:
Command (two-round duration) (1)
Comprehend Languages/Tongues
Detect Good/Evil Dispel Magic (2)
Detect Lie (3)
Know Alignment (at will)
Polymorph Self (at will)
Summon Minion (1)
Teleport (no error)
True Seeing (1)

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2017 :  13:35:22  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Osiris is kind of lame as a death god. I want something more Anubisish.
Then again, its not like Kelemvor would have been any better - another 'snore fest'.

And BTW, I got the new /old (4e) continental outline done - its WAY cooler than WotC's map (because this one was based on the much bigger 1e/2e terrain layout). Got most of the river systems rerouted as well. Now I just have to find something to pour into all those huge holes (I hadn't realized Faerūn gained so many 'ass-cracks' LOL), chop some trees, and redo all my layer masks (yet again), and that should do. Push one button and the 1e/2e map turns into the 4e map. Then its on to the hybrid 5e map.

Can't wait to show a WIP - hopefully tomorrow - been VERY busy doing RW stuff. If I have the time, I might even throw some labels on this one (because unlike the other 'master map', I NEVER plan to do smaller, detailed ones of 4e).



Bear in mind, Anubis IS kind of in the forgotten realms. He's the guardian of dead gods in the astral.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2017 :  13:39:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

We can always give them the Raven Queen.




By the way, with all this talk of the Raven Queen and kenku, it decided me down a path. I'm going to include her not in Faerun, but rather in Katashaka and Anchorome where I have a lot of bird humanoid folk. I will also have the Vulture King, Heresa Hesi, who is the god of the dead, but the two fill different roles... one is of the act of death, the other of the dead. Also, while they'll be in a "pantheon" it will be more or less one culture may note one or the other or both. Also, in these cultures, she will appear differently. It gives me a good way to be able to port her into the realms without impacting Faerun heavily.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2017 :  13:46:06  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Oh, I hope you can show us that WIP soon.

Well, reading the info that Tom shared to me, it seems that in Planescape, Anubis evolved into something beyond a god (after Osiris stoled his portfolios and left him to die in the Astral Plane... add jerk to Osiris' lame traits). Anubis somehow got powered up by the divine essence of dead powers (or still-living but nearly dead powers) who feared "desecration"(whatever this means for a dead power) and sought out a guardian... so, Anubis evolved into something that its "beyond a god". He is now the Guardian of Dead Powers in the Astral Plane (this is canon Planescape).

Buuuuuut, Anubis is in the list of Egyptian gods in 5e, so... what if the uncaring Uber-god (or whatever) wanted to know what the heck was happening in this sphere named Abeir-Toril, seeing many powers being killed in a really short period of time (ToT-Spellplague), so he created and created an incarnation through a descendant... or, better, created the Raven Queen, and as goddess of fate and death, and sent her (or the incarnation) to Toril to learn what was happening... mmm.



Just to note, from the Egyptian pantheon, there are two special gods. Anubis is guardian of dead gods. Ptah is a god of wildspace and as well, and thus Ptah can be prayed to any where (except the Phlogiston... I don't think any god can go there).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 16 Aug 2017 :  14:36:02  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First, no-one ever said 'Chosen' HAVE TO be powerful. A god can make anyone 'Chosen'. The problem is, gods have learned to make their Chosen from already-powerful mortals, to increase their survivability. In the Old Empires, this might not be as much of a problem, since Incarnations are worshiped as gods (so Joe Assassin from the Temple of Creepoids isn't going to try and slit their throat... at least not as much as such a thing would happen north and west of that region). It may just be a 'cultural thing'.

Good point about Anubis - I like seeing others embracing the 'D&D canon IS FR canon' philosophy.

Connecting the Raven Queen to kenku is a bit weird, but no stranger then some of my own ideas about her. Recently I've become a big anime fan (thanks to my two younger boys), and they have a character in Narutuo - Itachi Uchiha - who can turn into a flock of Ravens (pretty helpful for scouting, but also when someone is trying to hit you). I was thinking a character like that would make a good High Priest/Chosen of TRQ. And then I thought, "she'd actually be a pretty good fit in the K-T stuff regardless" - she seems very much like their concept of 'Kami'. And now that you've mentioned Kenku, the east has their own variety of those, and it all comes full circle (some in the Taan, and another 'bird type' in the Psuedo-Japan islands).

I know Ptah is in The Realms (Realmspace) - I've even used him in a piece I wrote concerning the Time of Troubles (and the 'god' Monkey). In my homebrew Over-Cosmology, I actually have him as the dwarven 'High God' (he IS a dwarf, after all).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 16 Aug 2017 14:38:16
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 17 Aug 2017 :  02:01:47  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Connecting the Raven Queen to kenku is a bit weird, but no stranger then some of my own ideas about her.



I thought so too, but its been done according to the dragon article, so as long as its done in canon, might as well use it. That being said, that means we would have to tie her to Quorlinn as his creator (and it also means the sky god mentioned below is female and not male).

From monster mythology

Quorlinn is a strange god who is featured in many obscure myths as a botched experiment in creation by a powerful nonlawful sky god too embarassed to admit his failure. However, Quorlinn proves his worth in a series of dubious escapades involving trickery, deceit, disguise, and thievery, often escaping with some tail feathers missing, to bring his creator some choice item. The greater god relents and Quorlinn has a race created in his image.

Unfortunately, Quorlinn isn't enthralled by this. He doesh't want the responsibility of his own race and whines continually about being weighed down by it; possibly, this is a defense because he isn't uncaring, but may feel himself too weak to be a good protector. Hence, he teaches kenku thievery, disguise, and magical skills and hopes they can stand up for themselves.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1177 Posts

Posted - 17 Aug 2017 :  02:17:59  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Osiris is kind of lame as a death god. I want something more Anubisish.
Then again, its not like Kelemvor would have been any better - another 'snore fest'.

And BTW, I got the new /old (4e) continental outline done - its WAY cooler than WotC's map (because this one was based on the much bigger 1e/2e terrain layout). Got most of the river systems rerouted as well. Now I just have to find something to pour into all those huge holes (I hadn't realized Faerūn gained so many 'ass-cracks' LOL), chop some trees, and redo all my layer masks (yet again), and that should do. Push one button and the 1e/2e map turns into the 4e map. Then its on to the hybrid 5e map.

Can't wait to show a WIP - hopefully tomorrow - been VERY busy doing RW stuff. If I have the time, I might even throw some labels on this one (because unlike the other 'master map', I NEVER plan to do smaller, detailed ones of 4e).



Bear in mind, Anubis IS kind of in the forgotten realms. He's the guardian of dead gods in the astral.



Not the same as being in Realm space.

But he did send Jackle Headed Hound Archons with the Gods who did go.

You have to be careful with stuff from Planescape, not everything that happens i. Planescape impacts FR, it can get complicated.

But the Gods who didn't go are still acknowledged, like Nut, Anubis, ect..., its just that they aren't the focus in Mulhorand religion. They have no churches.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14389 Posts

Posted - 17 Aug 2017 :  03:40:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Whelp, I did it...

4th edition Forgotten Realms Map.

The map I swore I would never do.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Aug 2017 03:41:13
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