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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2010 :  03:41:23  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

I don't have my materials with me right now, bit I believe there was also a web enhancement specifically for that Dungeon issue. It was the githyanki city of Tu'Narath itself and I remember loving it. Now, if I could only find that link...

'Tis here:- http://paizo.com/dungeonissues/100/Dungeon100Enhancement.pdf

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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1280 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2010 :  12:54:36  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In my search for legendary swords in D&D I stumbled upon this Githyanki lore-gem. The fabled Silversword of Gith! Enjoy.

the restored Silversword of Gith
This longsword is rumored to have been forged by Zerthimon for Gith, before their separation into two races: the githzerai and the githyanki. Gith used this blade to free all gith-kind from their ages-long enslavement by the illithids. The sword was said to have been lost in the Nine Hells when Gith ventured there to seek an alliance with Tiamat and never returned. It has since acquired several owners over the ages, and was most recently used to defeat the King of Shadows. Now fully reforged, the power of this ancient artifact has finally been restored.

Designed to utilize its power intelligently, the sword adapts to its wielder, giving powers it deems appropriate for its master's abilities.

With every strike, the sword has a 20% chance of dealing bonus cold damage and a 20% chance of emitting a sonic wave, similar to the spell Sound Burst. The sword has been further enchanted with numerous abilities, each quite potent in its own right.



Weight (lb) 4
Cost (gp) Priceless
Size Medium
Damage 1d8
Damage type slashing
Critical range 19-20x2

Special properties:
* Base Item: Longsword
* Material: Metal (alchemical silver)
* Enchantments: Keen
* Cast Spell: Spell-Like Abilities (2 charges/use; see below)
* On Hit Cast Spell: Unique power, Level 25
* Cast Spell: Sword Forms (2 uses/day; see below)
* Damage Bonus: Slashing 1d12
* Damage Bonus v. Racial Type: Outsider 1d12
* Granted Immunities: Mind-affecting spells, paralysis
* Spell-Like Abilities:

Chilling Wrath
Three beams of freezing cold energy are directed at a single target as separate ranged touch attacks. If all three beams successfully converge on the target, they will conclude with a large explosion of ice and energy, dealing additional damage to enemies in the area (Fortitude save prevents knockdown on selected target).
Infinite Resonance
A massive sound wave is sent radiating away from the wielder in a circular radius, dealing large amounts of damage and deafening and knocking down enemies unable to resist its power (Fortitude save prevents).
Unity of Will
All creatures in view of the sword are affected by its power. Allies to the wielder, united in purpose, are granted bonuses similar to those found in the spells Mind Blank and Heroism. Nearby enemies are given penalties similar to the spells Fear and Crushing Despair (Will save negates).
Unbroken Circle
The wielder is protected from physical harm and magical attacks in a manner similar to the spells Premonition and Spell Mantle.
Perfect Rejuvenation
The wielder is restored as if affected by the spells Greater Restoration and Regenerate.

* Sword Forms: The sword bearer may magically alter the edge of the blade to produce different effects, several times per day.

Penetrating Edge
For a short while, all physical damage done is maximized.
Anti-Magic Edge
For a short while, every time the wielder lands a blow with the sword, the target must save or be affected by Mordenkainen's Disjunction.
Defensive Edge
For a short while, the sword confers a significant bonus to the wielder's armor class.


A longsword +3 with so many powers and abilities you can't help but want the damn blade for your own swordmaster PC!
Look at that price!

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Druidic Groves

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2010 :  23:40:53  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's good stuff, Bladewind.

The basic properties of silver swords are of course briefly outlined in the relevant monster descriptions (see below).

I've read some fascinating lore of dubious canon which describes the mysterious mithril-like silvery metal of these blades as shaping and flowing itself in a semi-liquid manner whenever swung, making them function almost more like whips than like blades (and requiring great skill and practice to properly wield). I've also encountered many fanciful (even bizarre) depictions and illustrations of the Gith races and their silver swords scattered throughout the ether which could inspire any number of interesting ideas when taken seriously.

I'm planning on eventually charging my players with the task of heroicly eliminating a rather troublesome and serious Gith entrenchment in my Realms (thus my interest in finding more detailed background about the Gith races and incursion lore). So I've idly toyed with a few of my own ideas about these silver swords -

  • One concept is that these silver swords (which have unique properties on the Astral) might somehow function as a kind of planar anchor or focus for Githyanki/Githzerai Plane Shifting. Intermittent proximity or contact with one of these blades (or the un/holy champion who wields it) might be necessary to somehow calibrate or recharge a Gith's planar abilities when away from the Astral for prolongued periods. This might help explain their almost unerring instinct (and extreme fanaticism) to locate and recover any such blades they've lost, most especially when they're "stranded" on some plane other than the Astral. It could perhaps even explain the lack of any sort of Plane Shifting abilities among degenerate Gith who do not use (and have likely lost the secret methods of forging) such swords.

    Gith Pirates become something of a bothersome anomaly with this idea. It might be argued that their somewhat superior Astral Spell and Plane Shifting abilities (capable of shifting entire spelljamming vessels into and through the Astral) are somehow fueled by their lifelong exposure to the phlogiston, and/or perhaps they have learned to attune themselves to spelljamming helms instead of silver swords.


  • Another compatible concept is that some component of this silver alloy (or component of the forging process) involves fragments or essence of the Astral itself. This easily explains how these blades can sever silver cords. It also offers a possible explanation for why the Githzerai have generally inferior silver swords; their forging is limited by the extra effort and complexities involved in seizing and shaping the stuff of raw chaos into a workable version of pseudo-astral essence (which resonates differently and therefore allows Githzerai to attune to them instead of Githyanki)*. Using this idea, it would be virtually impossible for these blades to be duplicated anywhere else in the planes, even by the Gith races themselves. It would also seem logical for Githzerai silver swords to have some fundamentally different planar properties than those of the Githyanki.

    * Of course, it may just be that the art of forging silver swords was not as well developed when Zerthimon's Githzerai fled to Limbo. The more xenophobically aggressive and militant Githyanki would have viewed continuous refinements of their forging process as a priority while the more introspective Githzerai would have chosen to spend their energies on other pursuits or simply struggled to adapt and survive in their new planar environs.


  • (This all leads me to the distracting idea of an ancient diaspora of the Gith races. Who knows how many other splinters rejected Githyanki, even Githzerai, social oppression and escaped to other planes? Although not canon, the idea of a Gith offshoot hidden on one of the deep layers of Acheron or a hitherto undiscovered Demiplane of Xenophobia has much appeal. The reason nobody's ever heard of these paranoid Githlings is that they are methodically careful about ensuring there are never any surviving witnesses or legends to speak of them. And after centuries of refining their blitzkrieg illusion skills working as elite "black ops" mercenaries in the Blood War, even disguising themselves as normal Giths when necessary, they're extraordinarily good at remaining entirely unknown.)

    For completeness, these are all the substantial references to the Gith races I could find within my (and my player sages') accumulated lore -

    1E FF (Githyanki, Githzerai)
    2E MM (Gith, Gith Pirate, Githyanki, Githzerai)
    2E MC7: Spelljammer (Pirate of Gith)
    2E MC8: Outer Planes (Githyanki, Githzerai)
    2E MC Planescape Appendix I (Githyanki, Githzerai)
    2E Planescape: Guide to the Astral Plane (Githyanki are richly detailed, as are Gith Pirates to some extent)
    2E Planescape: Planes of Chaos (Githzerai are briefly detailed)
    2E Dark Sun Campaign Setting (Gith)
    2E Dark Sun: Black Spine Adventure (Gith are briefly detailed in Book Two; Githyanki and Githzerai briefly detailed in Book Three)

    I have scried innumerable references to the Gith races and their silver swords within the strange floating libraries of the Wizards of the Coast, as well as the speculations and research of countless scribes across the ether, though I have not had the patience to painstakingly read through their many shelves of recent lore. The wondrous Planescape: Torment tale is said to prominently feature a special silver sword wielded by the Githzerai named Dak'kon.

    [/Ayrik]

    Edited by - Ayrik on 16 Nov 2010 01:55:36
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    Markustay
    Realms Explorer extraordinaire

    USA
    15724 Posts

    Posted - 16 Nov 2010 :  02:45:25  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    So if there are Gith Yankees, why are their no Gith-Rednecks? Or Gith-Rebels (if you prefer)?

    Sorry.... I'll take my nap now.....

    "I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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    Wooly Rupert
    Master of Mischief
    Moderator

    USA
    36779 Posts

    Posted - 16 Nov 2010 :  03:37:57  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Markustay

    So if there are Gith Yankees, why are their no Gith-Rednecks? Or Gith-Rebels (if you prefer)?

    Sorry.... I'll take my nap now.....



    "I'm fixin' to go over yonder on that dead god, thar... Y'all gimme a holler if ya need anythin'!"

    Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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    Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 Nov 2010 03:41:09
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    Ayrik
    Great Reader

    Canada
    7966 Posts

    Posted - 17 Nov 2010 :  00:46:26  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Wooly Rupert
    "I'm fixin' to go over yonder on that dead god, thar... Y'all gimme a holler if ya need anythin'!"
    I'm trying to imagine Wooly, blue round abominable fluffy soap-bubble thing wooly (what is that thing anyways?) wearing his kicker boots, lumberjack checkershirt, jean jacket, leaning over and spitting (something blue, probably) onto the sidewalk while John Wayning onto his horse ...

    Naw, y'know on second thought I'm going to try very hard to not imagine that at all.

    [/Ayrik]
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    Wooly Rupert
    Master of Mischief
    Moderator

    USA
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    Posted - 17 Nov 2010 :  04:41:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Arik

    quote:
    Wooly Rupert
    "I'm fixin' to go over yonder on that dead god, thar... Y'all gimme a holler if ya need anythin'!"
    I'm trying to imagine Wooly, blue round abominable fluffy soap-bubble thing wooly (what is that thing anyways?) wearing his kicker boots, lumberjack checkershirt, jean jacket, leaning over and spitting (something blue, probably) onto the sidewalk while John Wayning onto his horse ...

    Naw, y'know on second thought I'm going to try very hard to not imagine that at all.





    I'm not sure what, exactly, my avatar is -- other than suitably goofy!

    Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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    Wooly Rupert
    Master of Mischief
    Moderator

    USA
    36779 Posts

    Posted - 17 Nov 2010 :  04:49:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Arik

    Gith Pirates become something of a bothersome anomaly with this idea. It might be argued that their somewhat superior Astral Spell and Plane Shifting abilities (capable of shifting entire spelljamming vessels into and through the Astral) are somehow fueled by their lifelong exposure to the phlogiston, and/or perhaps they have learned to attune themselves to spelljamming helms instead of silver swords.[/*]



    It's explicitly stated they can only do this with elven-made ships and major and minor spelljamming helms. So I'm not sure this is as much a souped-up ability as it is a unique combination of properties and abilities.

    Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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    Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Nov 2010 04:51:44
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    Ayrik
    Great Reader

    Canada
    7966 Posts

    Posted - 17 Nov 2010 :  18:09:21  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    (Admirable topic-swerving style, Wooly.)

    You're absolutely correct about the Gith Pirates. I note a few important details

  • As written, Githyanki and Githzerai can Plane Shift at will. Apparently without any restrictions, though it seems to be implied that the Giths use this ability only to travel between the Astral and Prime (or between the Astral and some other plane). Gith Pirates can use Astral Spell and Plane Shift, each three times per day - which, in itself, is somewhat inferior to the assumed capabilities of the other Giths.


  • Githyanki and Githzerai are intrinsically planar creatures, while it seems that Gith Pirates are not - why do they need an Astral Spell ability? Either way, planars can instinctively "see" weird time-space-dimensional-planar relationships, portals, barriers, and conditions (in a way, they can sense boundaries where different sets of fundamental physical laws interact). Spelljamming helms (and by extension the Spelljamming ships, especially "organic" Elven ships) seem like perfectly suited items for manipulating and breaking "normal" rules of physics for the purpose of travelling to distant regions ...


  • Gith Pirates can move entire ships into the Astral when equipped with helms and these living ships. It seems to be implied that only the Gith at the helm is responsible for this transition, though it's not impossible that all of the other Gith onboard are also involved. It's largely assumed that Gith ships are exclusively crewed by Gith Pirates, perhaps this is because it is necessary to have large numbers/HD of them when moving large and heavy ships. Maybe a living ship has less "inertia" and whatever cargo it carries is just a scaled-up version of the personal gear a single Plane Shifting Gith might carry.


  • Gith Pirates might simply purchase special Astral-forged helms designed for their race's particular needs; such helms would function normally for everyone else - but can enable planar transitions when combined with a living ship and intrinsic (not-spellcasting) Gith Pirate powers. It's not like the Gith talk about their secrets. In fact, they might be as insanely zealous about recovering their special helms as other Giths are about silver swords. Maybe they even look like silver helms while a Gith is driving.


  • I suggest the Gith Pirates could use their abilities on living Spelljammer vessels (the manta-scorpion kinds, not the any-ship-with-a-spelljamming-helm kinds). Not being hunted by the Elven Armada is only one of the advantages they'd enjoy.

  • [/Ayrik]

    Edited by - Ayrik on 18 Nov 2010 03:52:57
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    Ayrik
    Great Reader

    Canada
    7966 Posts

    Posted - 18 Nov 2010 :  21:41:06  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    The best library I could find with lore about Gith languages is located here. The Planewalker library has several good articles (here and here) and mountains of accumulated (scattered) lore submitted by planewalking sages. None of this appears to be absolute canon, though I prefer the first library because it is fairly convenient (copying tomes is encouraged), comprehensive (if lacking a little in Gith vocabulary, perhaps), and fully self-consistent - indeed, it analyzes the Gith languages in such meticulous scholarly depth that I can hardly understand many of the finer nuances presented therein.

    [/Ayrik]

    Edited by - Ayrik on 18 Nov 2010 21:57:01
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    Zireael
    Master of Realmslore

    Poland
    1190 Posts

    Posted - 11 Dec 2010 :  14:50:06  Show Profile  Visit Zireael's Homepage Send Zireael a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Anything more on the githyanki/dragon (I'm assuming red?) crossbreed?

    SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!

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    Ayrik
    Great Reader

    Canada
    7966 Posts

    Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  03:08:33  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    I've just discovered Paizo's Tu'narath City Guide.
    quote:
    This exclusive supplement to “The Lich Queen’s Beloved,” an adventure that appears in DUNGEON #100 is available now as a digital download.

    Both “The Lich-Queen’s Beloved” and this exclusive supplement are authored by gaming industry luminary Christopher Perkins, and are part of the three-magazine Incursion event featured in POLYHEDRON #159, DRAGON #309, and DUNGEON #100. Perkins has created a city guide to the githyanki capital city of Tu'narath, including detailed descriptions of the city's key structures and important residents.

    This Web supplement assumes you have a copy of DUNGEON #100 containing both the adventure and the poster map of Tu'narath, the githyanki capital city.

    Also ...

    "The Death of Lashmire" (Dungeon #116) and "Secrets of the Silver Forge" (Dungeon #125) are adventures involving the sunken astral githyanki city of Kamyn-Dhun (now inhabited by a githyanki lich and his undead necrogiths, plus a small inbred clan of aquatic githyanki losers). Descriptions of the once-legendary (and still operational, though cursed) psionic silver forge and foundry of Kamyn-Dhun offer some insights into the githsmithing secrets of silver swords.

    [/Ayrik]
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    Ayrik
    Great Reader

    Canada
    7966 Posts

    Posted - 20 Mar 2011 :  22:34:58  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    A new question about the gith races ... are there any sources (preferably canon) which give any actual dates for significant events in their histories? Is the scale measured millennia or tens of millennia or even longer?

    I'm curious because (aside from fascination with gith lore) I'd like to know "where" the gith might be when a PC steps out of a time gate to the past.

    [/Ayrik]
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    Fellfire
    Master of Realmslore

    1965 Posts

    Posted - 20 Mar 2011 :  23:16:11  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Were you aware of the 3rd party book Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed? Apparently in there is a psionic race known as the Verrik in there, and some people have speculated that these may be the Githryvik. I have not read this book, so I am unsure how close they could be, but I thought I'd pass it along.

    I found this. Apparently Pathfinder is using this race too. I'll check the 2 Bestiaries for you, but I haven't seen any kind of comprehensive timeline anywhere.

    Also, this site, The Past Unravels in the Dusty Tomes of History sections has a little Gith history, but I though a few other Scribes (Markus) may be interested in the planar timeline. And this seemed a half-way decent place to post it.

    Misanthorpe

    Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

    "Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

    Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out


    Edited by - Fellfire on 21 Mar 2011 00:15:14
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    The Sage
    Procrastinator Most High

    Australia
    31701 Posts

    Posted - 21 Mar 2011 :  01:06:06  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Arik

    A new question about the gith races ... are there any sources (preferably canon) which give any actual dates for significant events in their histories? Is the scale measured millennia or tens of millennia or even longer?
    There have been various important dates in Gith history vaguely referenced in several PLANESCAPE sources, though nothing approaching a definitive timeline for their history.

    Some fans have plotted out what they believe to be an actual planar timeline which also works in these Gith references. One notable example is the timeline Rip Van Wormer published on the old planewalker.com site. It speculates on the creation of the Gith races, the Illithid rebellion, the rise of various luminaries of githyanki/githzerai history -- like Gith and Zerthimon, for example. As well, important actions taken by the Lich Queen, the alliance made with Red Dragons, and so on.

    I'll see if I can find it on the new site.

    Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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    Ayrik
    Great Reader

    Canada
    7966 Posts

    Posted - 21 Mar 2011 :  01:22:16  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    The verrik are pure OGL, definitely not canon (and unable to penetrate the unbreakable branding magics the Wizards of the Coast cast long ago upon the gith races) ... though, yes, the verrik would make a fine substitute for the githvyrik race (whom I'm inclined to treat more as githyanki-variant "rogue" individuals than as a race proper, as noted earlier in passages quoted from their creator, PSK).

    Alas, your Dusty Tomes of History only summarize what is already said in the canon sourcebooks without providing calendar references. Also drawn from 4E gith historical lore, which is (thus far) remarkably sparse, a bit surprising given the existence of the many new options for playing giths.

    I do thank ye for looking though, Fellfire, Arcana Unearthed is actually an interesting read from the pile of "ignored" OGL stuff. I should've given Monty Cook more credit.

    [/Ayrik]

    Edited by - Ayrik on 21 Mar 2011 01:55:08
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    Ayrik
    Great Reader

    Canada
    7966 Posts

    Posted - 21 Mar 2011 :  01:39:39  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    lol, I found more than 100 distinct timeline projects at planewalker (most unfinished or irrelevant), yet this is the only timeline I could find by ripvanwormer; this one is the best (so far) for my needs ... I think the trick is to trace the history of the illithids instead of the forerunners/giths. Dates given at planewalker for Gith's Rebellion range from circa 3,000 to circa 50,000 (and even one claim of 300 million) years past ... this thread has also been a little helpful.

    I thank ye as well, Sage, planewalker is messier than Candlekeep, but is a rich resource.

    [/Ayrik]

    Edited by - Ayrik on 21 Mar 2011 01:51:49
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    Gray Richardson
    Master of Realmslore

    USA
    1291 Posts

    Posted - 21 Mar 2011 :  02:52:51  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    An important date with respect to the Realms timeline is -11,000 DR when the illithid enclave of Oryndoll is settled in the Underdark by mind-flayer refugees from Glyth.

    Glyth is a mind-flayer populated planet in Toril's solar system. While the reason that refugees fled the planet in -11,000 DR is unclear, it could be the date that the Gith revolt happened in Toril's cosmology. Or it could have been the date the revolt reached Toril's cosmology. Or it could have been a Gith pogrom against the remaining illithids sometime after the War had ended.

    We don't know that the Gith are responsible for the illithid refugees, but it seems the most likely explanation. That's not to say it couldn't have been a rampaging tarrasque or something. But if it was the Gith who were responsible, that puts the Gith rebellion at least as far back as circa -11,000 DR or before.
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    Ayrik
    Great Reader

    Canada
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    Posted - 21 Mar 2011 :  06:45:19  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Gray — Your suggested date, circa -11,000DR, works well for me (much better than circa -50,117DR) ... all sorts of interesting things (genocidal wars, lol) happening in the Realms during that period, according to the trusty Krashos chronology.

    I think eleven millennia should be enough time to allow for githyanki and githzerai divergence, sustain 157 Vlaakith regnants (the most recent monarch empowered for over 1,000 years), and conveniently encompass the lifespan of known githvyrik (it is stated that Vhostym the Sojourner is "over 10,000 years old" as of ~1370DR).

    I realize the gith timeline is one of those little details which was not originally assigned any fixed dates; thus allowing DMs (and campaign designers) to creatively adapt details as required. I didn't really expect the gith to be firmly nailed down to a calendar, though I was hopeful that some concrete references might have slipped into the lore since their introduction in 1981RL.

    ...

    I've also discovered a scroll from the EN World archives, very similar in purpose to this one (though quite naturally much less erudite, informative, accurate, and exhaustively researched). It mentions some non-canonical gith races: githzada, githtorai, githgagra, githduros/dakeen, and githilid ... all seemingly lost to folded publishers and dead weblinks. Does anyone have any lore about lost gith races?

    [/Ayrik]

    Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Apr 2011 23:21:54
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    The Sage
    Procrastinator Most High

    Australia
    31701 Posts

    Posted - 21 Mar 2011 :  07:35:01  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Arik

    Gray — Your suggested date, circa -11,000DR, works well for me (much better than circa -50,117DR) ...
    It's not a date that Gray suggested. It's actually an official reference, which Eric Boyd placed into the write-up of Oryndoll in Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark.

    Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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    Ayrik
    Great Reader

    Canada
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    Posted - 21 Mar 2011 :  07:56:54  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    lol, yes ... the date is officially fixed, but the actual significance is only suggested. As Gray said, we don't know that the illithid refugees were actually fleeing a wave of Gith's revolution/genocide, even though it's a very reasonable explanation. No better date seems to be available.

    [/Ayrik]
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    Gray Richardson
    Master of Realmslore

    USA
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    Posted - 27 Mar 2011 :  12:59:49  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Okay, here is some ballpark figuring I came up with to estimate the time back to the Gith revolt.

    157 rulers all named Vlaakith, taking their name from the first.
    The most recent Lich Queen, Vlaakith 157 ruled about 1000 years by the time of 1372 DR, the start of the 3e campaign setting. We are told that she is by far the longest ruling Vlaakith. So that puts a definitive upper maximum of 157,000 years ago for the revolt, but that is probably a gross over estimation.

    Vlaakith CLVI, who was also a lich we are told in Dragon 355, had a rebellion during the 6th century of her rule which eventually ended in her death at the hands of the first devourer. Because the lore does not say she ruled more than 600 years, we will make the assumption that she died sometime during her 500's. Lets estimate 550 (plus or minus 49 years).

    Now, the first Vlaakith had to grow to adulthood and gain some measure of experience so that she could become Gith's right-hand woman and be in position to take over when Gith disappeared. So lets assume she was middle aged when that happened.

    Expanded Psionics Handbook p.16 gives the vital statistics for Githyanki. It is roughly equivalent to humans. Githyanki reach middle age at age 35. They are old at 50, venerable at 70, and from there live a max of 2d20 years. Which makes their average life expectancy 91 years.

    Average starting age for a Githyanki is 15 +1d4 years or an average of 17.5 years.

    So lets assume the average reign of each Vlaakith from Vlaakith II to Vlaakith CLV was 91 years average end less 17.5 years average start for an average total reigning years of 73.5 years.

    Multiply 73.5 years by 154 Vlaakiths (Vlaakiths II to CLV) = 11,319 years.
    Plus the reign of Vlaakith I = 91 years less 35 years at start = 56 year.
    Plus Vlaakith CLVI = estimated 550 years.
    Plus Vlaakith CLVII = 1000 years.

    That gives us a grand total of 12,925 years (ballpark).
    Subtract that from 1372 DR (the year that the 3e Campaign Setting began) and that gives us an approximate date of -11,553 DR for the Githyanki revolt.

    Which is about 500 years prior to the settling of Oryndoll by illithid refugees. That's practically contemporaneous, given the roughness of our estimates--well within the ballpark.

    But there are margins of error to consider. And they are quite wide on both ends. As the Vlaakiths were all very evil and war-like, it is likely that many took the throne by intrigue or when their predecessor died in battle. Some Vlaakiths may have lasted only a couple of years, months, weeks, or even a few scant days. Others may have lasted to their maximum age.

    So let's consider a bell curve for average reign length ranging from 0 years starting at 16 (minimum starting age of 15+1) to maximum life expectancy of 110 (70+2d20). Assuming for the sake of argument that the mid-point of the bell curve falls in the exact middle, the average reign (or would it be the median reign?) would be 47 years.

    Under that assumption, 47x154 Vlaakiths = 7238 years

    Now, add in 1600 years for Vlaakiths I, CLVI and CLVII (I'm just going to round to 1600 for simplicity's sake for the rest of this post, estimating reigns of 50, 550, and 1000 years respectively for the first and last 2 Vlaakiths) and that gives us 8838 years ago, or roughly -7466 DR as a low end figure, or most recent, reasonable dating for the revolt. If you estimate an even higher rate of death by misadventure, war, disease, poison, and assassination, that pulls the date ever more recent.

    Just for comparison, I count 72 English monarchs from 829 AD to 2011 AD, so dividing 1182 years by 72 monarchs, yields an average reign of 16.42 years for English heads of state (including the Houses of Wessex, Denmark, and 2 Lords Protector). 154 Vlaakiths x 16.42 = 2528 + 1600 = 4128 years ago, or roughly -2756 DR. That's getting pretty near the low end.

    Although, if we assume an even greater degree of Vlaakith underhandedness, we could push the average reign even shorter still. But to get to the 2,000 years ago estimate proposed in one sourcebook, you would have to assume an average reign of only 2.6 years. That seems rather unlikely, though. I think the 2,000 years ago estimate is probably way wrong. Unless of course you consider that the war may have been fought through time travel, in which case the war could have started 2,000 years ago and been waged backward through time, ending several thousand years previous to when it started. This scenario cannot be ruled out, as the illithids are thought to have originally colonized the past from a far future date, at the end of time.

    Now, having considered the low end, what's the high end? Well, as mentioned above, Vlaakith CLVII was the longest reigning at 1000 years. I don't know where I read it, and I may be misremembering, but I thought I read somewhere that Vlaakith CLVI was the second longest reigning Vlaakith. Though the exact length of her reign cannot be determined, let's put it at an upper end of 600 years.

    Note that the Astral Plane is timeless. Which means that as long as you stay in the Astral, you do not age. So there is no effective maximum age limit for Githyanki. Except that, when you leave the Astral, you instantly "catch up" to your real chronological age. Thus any Githyanki that lives past 110 years who leaves the Astral should (barring magical protection) instantly age past her death. So theoretically, if we ignore the max age limit, and assume that all the Vlaakiths lived 600 years, except for the last at 1000, that gives us a figure of 94,000 years ago max for the revolt.

    But I am assuming the last 2 lich-queens became liches exactly for the reason that they wanted the ability to leave the Astral without dying. Mortal queens older than 110 years could not travel to other planes or lead their troops in battle. A simple plane shift spell could kill them, and probably accounted for the deaths of several early Vlaakiths.

    I don't think any other Vlaakiths became lichs. The only 2 we know of are the last 2. The Guide to the Astral Plane says that Vlaakith CLVII was the only lich. But Dragon 355 states that Vlaakith CLVI was also a lich. Assuming that no other Vlaakiths achieved lichdom, they probably reigned for shorter periods due to death by unnatural causes.

    So there are a lot of variables, giving us ranges from 2000 years ago, to 157,000 years ago and various numbers inbetween.

    But a very reasonable estimate puts the revolt around 13,000 years ago. Rip Van Wormer suggests a different dating of around 14,000 years ago based on the Athas timeline. Athas saw the first use of psionic powers by the races of the Rebirth around 13950 years ago. The Dark Sun module Black Spine suggests that the development of psionic powers on Athas may have been due to psionic bombs set off by Githzerai in their war with the Githyanki. This is not presented as fact in the module, but rather in the context of "Scholars who hear this story may wonder whether these psionic devastators might have something to do with the development of psionics in Athas... No one knows for sure." But, just for the sake of argument, if we assume that psionics on Athas were a result of the Githzerai/Githyanki schism (that happened after the illithid revolt), that would put the Gith revolt around -12,580 DR. Almost 1600 years before the founding of Oryndoll in -11,000 DR.

    Now, if Realmspace is a relative backwater of the multiverse, then it might indeed have taken the Gith 1600 years travelling between crystal spheres, waging their rebellion on every planet across the far-flung reaches of the illithid empire to get to Glyth. But we cannot necessarily assume that time flows at a 1 to 1 rate between Athas and Faerûn. Even a slight difference in time flow could accumulate significantly over thousands of years. This could account for the difference in datings between crystal spheres.

    It's not even clear that there is ANY correspondence between dates across universes. For instance Elminster has a portal that connects to Earth in Yellowstone Park circa 1894. This indicates that portals between universes/spheres may synchronize to certain dates merely as a convention, not as any kind of absolute objective correspondence. It may simply be a function of the time coordinate used in the spell, with different spells linking to different dates, just as the spatial coordinates link them to different locations.

    And that's not even considering that the Githzerai & Githyanki could have fought each other by means of the time-war technology mentioned above.

    There's one other piece of compelling evidence that suggests that Realmspace is not the last place that Gith fought illithids. Quite the opposite. There is circumstantial evidence to suggest that Gith's rebellion started in Realmspace on the planet Glyth, the 6th planet in Toril's solar system. The Guide to the Astral Plane suggests that Gith was named after her homeworld. While the names Gith and Glyth are not exactly alike, they sound enough alike that it is conceivable they were originally the same word that has diverged over the course of 12,000 years through linguistic drift. Or possibly they are the same word with slightly different grammatical declension, for instance the "l" infix might indicate a genitive case, or location marker.

    I don't know of any worlds named "Gith." But Glyth seems like it could be a viable candidate for Gith's homeworld. I find it an intriguing possibility that Oryndoll was founded as a direct result of illithids fleeing the very first uprising of Glyth slaves under the leadership of Gith, and spread out to the rest of the universe from Realmspace.
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    Ayrik
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    Posted - 27 Mar 2011 :  15:36:16  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Gray —

    First:

    Ye rock, man! Surely ye already know this; but still ye have earned props, kudos, gratz, and my sincerely heartfelt thanx for undertaking and offering such a surprisingly comprehensive analysis toward my puzzling query. Ye are indeed a Master of Realmslore, one of the finest caliber whose sagacity in such matters I consider on par with such luminaries as Krashos, Grubb, James/James, Boyd, Schend, Shemmy, and the legendary Greenwood himself. Yer canon is of the purest sort, mayhap more accurate (and palatable) than even the most official offerings presented by TSR-Wizbro. (Some of this suck-up is overlap from other scrolls of impressive Graylore ye've not been thanked for. )

    Second:

    I shall accept the date of Gith's revolt being conclusively set to -11,553DR (for now, lol). The other dates and ranges ye've calculated are quite plausible but I fear involve more arbitrary variable assignments and assumptions than I can readily accept; the law of averages suggests this first date imposes the least error.

    I am also inclined to think ye have been slightly conservative in estimating the "average" term of Vlaakith regency; I suspect these Vlaakiths and thus their reigns would have been suddenly truncated with great frequency by their inhumanly competitive and competent Githyanki societies. Thus the actual date might be some centuries or even a few millennia more recent, yet impossible to calculate with greater precision.

    Third:

    I have recently examined a vast number of other D&D chronology attempts, most of which are incomplete, inaccurate, poorly researched, unique homebrew, or rampantly speculative.

    However, A Temporal Chronology of the Primes (by Brian James), Forgotten Realms Timeline (by Krashos and others), A Spelljammer Timeline - revised (by GMWestermeyer), and - just for completeness - Known Chronological Listing of Realms Novels (by Boyd, Greenwood, Schend, and "The Candlekeep Monks") are all very well done and might assist ye in many projects. I suspect the first and last are likely used as the primary "official" sources for Wizbro's D&D designers and authors. I've noted numerous references to Githy stuff which I haven't yet correlated.

    Fourth:

    I hadn't considered Dark Sun crossdating at all, though that's a smart strategy and there are some specific Athas Gith details (earlier in this scroll) which might provide some concrete reference points. Somebody suggested to me that some additional tidbits might be gleaned from lore concerning (red) dragons.

    I've been combing through certain Monstrous Arcana tomes (The Illithiad, A Darkness Gathering, Masters of Eternal Night, and Dawn of the Overmind) because they contain and reference Gith Forerunners. I still haven't purchased Paizo's Tu'narath City Guide, nor received my copy of Polyhedron #159, nor gained access to Dragon #309, but once I add these to my existing lore the secrets of the Gith Incursion (and Gith Forerunners) will be fully revealed. I do not maintain a DDI subscription so I might be unaware of non-print issues which include interesting Gith lore.

    Dungeons #116, #159 (which I mentioned earlier in this scroll) do feature a Githyanki lich, though he's no Vlaakith.

    Ye'd considered an important detail that I'd completely overlooked: the differing timeflow across the planes. This could be complicated by the fact that this particular property of the Astral has been redefined several times across D&D game editions. A similar problem exists with timeflow for the Githzerai native to Limbo/Chaos. I'm deciding that (unless explicitly stated otherwise with canon examples) there's no need to complicate the issue to meaningless insanity by involving chronomancy and time travel, even though I agree these were possibly accessible to the Githyanki. I'm also assuming that (again, unless canon states otherwise) timeflow between most places is essentially 1:1 (at least insofar as Toril, Oerth, Krynn, and Sigil) just to keep things in simplest form.

    I'm not convinced that Glyth is necessarily the origin of Gith's rebellion. It seems to me that it would have occurred somewhere closer to the lost Forerunner homeworld of "Pharagos" or "Penumbra" or Vlaakith's throne. My opinion is that Realmspace is too populated and widely travelled (and policed by divine powers) to have been Gith's starting point. I suspect that (even with their inherent planeshifting abilities, which the Gith may not have yet had) this rebellion would require time to reach distant worlds (of which there were apparently many). The illithid migration circa -11,000DR would probably represent when Gith's Rebellion reached Realmspace ... or more precisely, when the illithids fled a serious Gith threat (which may have been some years before or after the Giths arrived). Still, I do not know much about this event, so I shall read more in Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark.

    The Sojourner claimed (in 1370DR) to be "over 10,000 years old" ... 10,000 is a nice round number and he might reasonably be, say, 11,548+1d4 years old, or 12,533 years old, etc. But I suspect he would have stated 9,000 ("nearly 10,000") or 15,000 or 50,000 years if such were applicable. Then again, it's also reasonable to expect such a long-lived being might be affected by antediluvian senility, have spent indeterminate periods of time in timeless/unaging stasis, been shifted around through chronomancies, or be accurately reporting his subjective age (which might differ from his chronological age if considerations such as planar mechanics and divine fiat are involved).

    Finally:

    The Expanded Psionics Handbook is apparently not part of my library. Which D&D edition? Which publisher? This 3.5E WotC book? Does it contain substantial lore about the Giths? (That is, lore which is not found elsewhere?)

    I ask a small favour: can ye please reproduce the Githyanki (Githzerai, Githcetera) aging tables here? Perhaps also height/weight and similar character generation tables if these exist?

    My thanx again.

    [/Ayrik]

    Edited by - Ayrik on 27 Mar 2011 18:27:02
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    Ayrik
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    Posted - 27 Mar 2011 :  18:45:49  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Another (double-barreled) question — did or do the giths have any access to Abeir?

    [/Ayrik]
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    Gray Richardson
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    Posted - 30 Mar 2011 :  09:09:18  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    I would think not. Abeir appears to be a pocket dimension out of phase with Toril. Abeir was set aside for the exclusive use of the primordials. But the Astral is home to the gods. There's ample reason to believe that Abeir was segregated from Toril's Astral altogether, I doubt that Abeir even had an Astral, or if it did, it would have to be a separate one all it's own, or possibly a locked off, segregated section of Toril's Astral. But if I had to bet, I'd place my money on Abeir not even having an Astral at all.

    You could maybe make the argument that Abeir attaches/ed to the same Elemental Chaos/Planes, possibly connected through the Ethereal. But not the Astral.

    There wouldn't be any color pools in Toril's Astral that led to Abeir.

    Toril's planewalkers are sophisticated enough that they would have found a way to travel between the two worlds long ago had it been possible. The fact that Abeir was totally forgotten or unknown indicates to me that travel between the two was simply not possible.
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    Hawkins
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    Posted - 30 Mar 2011 :  15:31:57  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    I really wish they would flesh out Abeir lore. I think that would make the acceptance of it easier. (Or maybe they have in DDI articles, and since I do not have the money to pay for something focusing on a rules set that I do not use, I just do not know about any fleshed out details.)

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    Hawkins
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    Posted - 30 Mar 2011 :  16:23:39  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Arik

    The Expanded Psionics Handbook is apparently not part of my library. Which D&D edition? Which publisher? This 3.5E WotC book? Does it contain substantial lore about the Giths? (That is, lore which is not found elsewhere?)
    I think the 3.x resources with the most about the Githyanki are Dragon Issue #309 and Dungeon Issue #100. Also, IIRC, the Planar Handbook (but not the Manual of the Planes) had a bit on both races. I will try to look over my copy of the XPH to see what info is in there as well.
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    Fellfire
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    Posted - 30 Mar 2011 :  22:54:58  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Race_____Mid. Age_____Old_____Venerable_____Max. Age
    Githyanki___35 years______50 years__70 years_____+2d20 years
    Githzerai___35 years______55 years__80 years_____+2d20 years

    XPH pp 16

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    Edited by - Fellfire on 30 Mar 2011 23:01:08
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    Ayrik
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    Posted - 30 Mar 2011 :  23:01:07  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Awesome, thanx Fellfire. I assume start ages are 15+1d4 years for both?

    I'd strangely assumed that, like pretty much everything else with a brain in D&D, the giths would outlive humans. Though I think it's fair to say that relatively few giths (or D&D humans) die in bed.

    [/Ayrik]

    Edited by - Ayrik on 30 Mar 2011 23:03:47
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    Fellfire
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    Posted - 30 Mar 2011 :  23:03:04  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Starting Age varies a little from class to class, but yes, 15 years is considered Adulthood.

    Barbarian, Rogue, Sorcerer, Soulknife, Wilder - +1d4
    Bard, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Psychic Warrior - +1d6
    Cleric, Druid, Monk, Psion, Wizard - +2d6

    for both races.

    Misanthorpe

    Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

    "Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

    Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out


    Edited by - Fellfire on 30 Mar 2011 23:06:57
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