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jordanz
Senior Scribe

509 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2016 :  01:01:22  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

[quote]Originally posted by Lilianviaten

I think Larloch was portrayed as a full fledged demigod in The Herald. He single handedly crippled the collective might of the Shadovar. There was no fight or back and forth. He just backhanded them all at once, leaving dozens of archmages crippled, dead, or mentally broken. Granted, they were minus Brennus, Rivalen, and Hadrhune, who were all dead by then. But still.

In The Godborn, which takes place very shortly before The Herald, Telamont faces his son Rivalen (who is now a demigod). He thinks to himself that he can certainly hurt Rivalen, but likely can't kill him. Yet in the Herald, Telamont admits to Shar that he's afraid of Larloch. And we don't ever see Telamont afraid.

For crying out loud, Telamont gathered 5 other Shadovar archmages and imprisoned Mephistopheles. But he tells Shar that he may not be able to defeat Larloch, even with all the wizardly might of his empire. He had to drain every magic item in his throne room and absorb the power just to think he could stand against Larloch. So that tells me Larloch is indeed a demigod.



Well my point is that it is debatable. Telamont and co. imprisoned Mestiopheles off his home turf and with that stolen divine spark. Demons are vulnerable that way but authentic DemiGods are not. Sure in terms of power some of these guys approach demigods, but there is something significant lacking (divine spark?).... So while there is concern on an arch-mages part when facing Larloch, we don't really see that same level of concerned expressed by a Demigod. Rivalen did not fear his Dad after he ascended
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2016 :  01:40:32  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, even Mystra's chosen tip-toed around Larloch, and Chosen ARE demi-gods (what was that nifty 4e parlance for that divine 'tier'?)*

And there is the theory that he is an ex-Chosen (perhaps of Mystryl), so who knows what sort of status that might mean.

On the other hand, Undead can't BE deities... but a couple of them have already broken that rule.


*EDIT: Exarch, wasn't it?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Sep 2016 01:41:28
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2927 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2016 :  02:23:14  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, even Mystra's chosen tip-toed around Larloch, and Chosen ARE demi-gods (what was that nifty 4e parlance for that divine 'tier'?)*

And there is the theory that he is an ex-Chosen (perhaps of Mystryl), so who knows what sort of status that might mean.

On the other hand, Undead can't BE deities... but a couple of them have already broken that rule.


*EDIT: Exarch, wasn't it?



Ed confirmed that Larloch's a Chosen of Mystryl a couple years ago. And yes, they used Exarch in 4e.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 24 Sep 2016 02:24:27
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

487 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2016 :  02:51:07  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

[quote]Originally posted by Lilianviaten

I think Larloch was portrayed as a full fledged demigod in The Herald. He single handedly crippled the collective might of the Shadovar. There was no fight or back and forth. He just backhanded them all at once, leaving dozens of archmages crippled, dead, or mentally broken. Granted, they were minus Brennus, Rivalen, and Hadrhune, who were all dead by then. But still.

In The Godborn, which takes place very shortly before The Herald, Telamont faces his son Rivalen (who is now a demigod). He thinks to himself that he can certainly hurt Rivalen, but likely can't kill him. Yet in the Herald, Telamont admits to Shar that he's afraid of Larloch. And we don't ever see Telamont afraid.

For crying out loud, Telamont gathered 5 other Shadovar archmages and imprisoned Mephistopheles. But he tells Shar that he may not be able to defeat Larloch, even with all the wizardly might of his empire. He had to drain every magic item in his throne room and absorb the power just to think he could stand against Larloch. So that tells me Larloch is indeed a demigod.



Well my point is that it is debatable. Telamont and co. imprisoned Mestiopheles off his home turf and with that stolen divine spark. Demons are vulnerable that way but authentic DemiGods are not. Sure in terms of power some of these guys approach demigods, but there is something significant lacking (divine spark?).... So while there is concern on an arch-mages part when facing Larloch, we don't really see that same level of concerned expressed by a Demigod. Rivalen did not fear his Dad after he ascended





Well, the divine spark hadn't yet been taken from Kesson Rel at that point. Telamont just summoned 5 of his archmage underlings and used a spell to bind Mephistopheles. But what I'm getting at is that Telamont has the ability to at least harm Rivalen. (Magadon fully bonded with the source is also demigod level, and he couldn't put Telamont down.)


So while it seems clear that Telamont falls short of demigod level, Larloch is established a being out of Telamont's league. I find it very safe to state that Larloch is demigod level, even without Ed explicitly saying so.

Also, Rivalen not fearing Telamont after ascending was as much about nihilism as power. Rivalen became completely nihilistic after absorbing Shar's power (which is why Telamont didn't seek the power for himself). So once the Shadowstorm was in motion, Rivalen didn't care if he died or not.
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1796 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2016 :  15:10:53  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It sounds to me that the distinction between Chosen and Demigods was lost somewhere, and it is not very difficult to understand.

Chosen (of Mystra) are powerful and effectively immortal. The power of other Chosen depends upon how much power the god instills in them. They are not gods.

Gods are beings that have worshipers, and draw upon that arrangement for their power. This includes demigods. Why was Joel so important? Because Finder needed worshipers.

The old term for "gods" that had no worshipers was quasi-deity (this is from back in 1st ed): basically they could become demigods if they managed to get worshipers but haven't or don't want to.

I don't think Chosen even rise to that level of power, because their power is not their own - it is a gift from a god.

I recommend everyone do everything they can to forget the terrible mess made of Gods in 4th edition - including the Exarchs - which included everyone from Chosen to Intermediate level gods in one big ugly unmeasurable group of stupidity that did not reflect the realms pantheons well at all.
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1796 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2016 :  15:37:39  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The statement about gods just being more powerful sounds much more like Netherese than Shoon (who had a intricate back and forth relationship to gods). It also sounds very much like Imaskari.

So hows this for a thought, if you want to go that way. That spellbook he found was Imaskarcana - which was also found in Netheril by ____ fill in the blank with various archwizards and that imparts dark power/knowledge. Presumably this would be Manshoon's "Master Spellbook" that has been mentioned on several occasions. Perhaps this does not mean Primary but rather suggests a servitude, as in: the spellbook is Manshoon's master.

That's not really my take on Manshoon, which is he's just a villain who is cool enough without more bells and whistles like being the descendant/embodiment of someone else cool.
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jordanz
Senior Scribe

509 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2016 :  04:05:10  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

It sounds to me that the distinction between Chosen and Demigods was lost somewhere, and it is not very difficult to understand.

Chosen (of Mystra) are powerful and effectively immortal. The power of other Chosen depends upon how much power the god instills in them. They are not gods.

Gods are beings that have worshipers, and draw upon that arrangement for their power. This includes demigods. Why was Joel so important? Because Finder needed worshipers.

The old term for "gods" that had no worshipers was quasi-deity (this is from back in 1st ed): basically they could become demigods if they managed to get worshipers but haven't or don't want to.

I don't think Chosen even rise to that level of power, because their power is not their own - it is a gift from a god.

I recommend everyone do everything they can to forget the terrible mess made of Gods in 4th edition - including the Exarchs - which included everyone from Chosen to Intermediate level gods in one big ugly unmeasurable group of stupidity that did not reflect the realms pantheons well at all.



This was my understanding. Basically Quasi deities < Demigods.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2016 :  06:16:21  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
'Exarch' was a level of power, and does not reflect whether a being has worshipers or not.

Chosen, Demigods, Quasi-deities, Arch-friend/Celestial, etc (I think beast Lords and Uber fey were lumped in there as well) are all Exarchs. The other titles denote their 'standing' and abilities, within a pantheon (or not).

And in one novel, Elminster 'summoned' a lesser goddess (Eldath, IIRC). I guess being a 'Chosen' of a Greater(+) power, you get to 'pull rank' even on gods.

But at the end of the day, I chalk all of this up to 'beyond mortal comprehension'. We are looking at these beings two, perhaps three, dimensionally, when there are facets to them we can't even begin to understand (including their hierarchy/relationships to each other).

Even in the mortal world, we have all different ways of measuring 'power'. You could probably easily find a Private who could beat-up a General, but he wouldn't... not without severe repercussions. The general is 'more powerful' in a totally different way than strength.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
459 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2016 :  13:57:32  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

The statement about gods just being more powerful sounds much more like Netherese than Shoon (who had a intricate back and forth relationship to gods). It also sounds very much like Imaskari.

So hows this for a thought, if you want to go that way. That spellbook he found was Imaskarcana - which was also found in Netheril by ____ fill in the blank with various archwizards and that imparts dark power/knowledge. Presumably this would be Manshoon's "Master Spellbook" that has been mentioned on several occasions. Perhaps this does not mean Primary but rather suggests a servitude, as in: the spellbook is Manshoon's master.

That's not really my take on Manshoon, which is he's just a villain who is cool enough without more bells and whistles like being the descendant/embodiment of someone else cool.




Thank you, that sounds great. For me it could be a phylactery of Shoon emperor and reason why each time Manshoon was killed his clone immidiately came for this book by force. Master spellbook twist :-D
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1796 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2016 :  14:23:12  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The biggest problem with it being Shoon, is there were only a couple Wizard Qyzars and they don't really fit the picture - so I'd say there are only 3 options:

Shoon IV - the first Necroqysar, he attempted to become a lich and failed so could be possible; however, his methods are much to direct and bold to mirror Manshoon. Manshoon is not bold but calculating so its not a good fit. Also, he's not a necromancer - which would seem to be what he would be if he was possessed by a necromancer.

Shoon VI - a wizard qysar, who I think would be your best fit. He returned to the Empire a powerful wizard... could be he found this book and it made him what he was, until he was assassinated that is. So the book would not be his "phylactery" but someone who predates him. Was the source of his power as well as Manshoon's - again perhaps Imaskarkana.

Shoon VII - THE Necroqysar - doesn't work because 1) another necromancer and 2) cannon has him as a demilich in a different book and a different plot line :P
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3935 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2016 :  16:02:21  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Slightly related but in cloak and dagger thr manshoon clone calls himself orbakh (before 3e renames him to orlak2).

I found a crypt of orbakh in the attack on myth drannor module. He was some kind of necromancer.

Not sure if there is a link betweeb orbakh and manshoon but it seems just as likely as shoon and manshoon (after all they both only have a name in common).

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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1796 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2016 :  16:33:27  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
lol - wow - I didn't understand why you wanted him to be Shoon until Dazz pointed out the name :P - I'm very quick witted, I swear! :P
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2016 :  18:59:00  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Really?
LOL!

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

The statement about gods just being more powerful sounds much more like Netherese than Shoon (who had a intricate back and forth relationship to gods). It also sounds very much like Imaskari.

So hows this for a thought, if you want to go that way. That spellbook he found was Imaskarcana - which was also found in Netheril by ____ fill in the blank with various archwizards and that imparts dark power/knowledge. Presumably this would be Manshoon's "Master Spellbook" that has been mentioned on several occasions. Perhaps this does not mean Primary but rather suggests a servitude, as in: the spellbook is Manshoon's master.

That's not really my take on Manshoon, which is he's just a villain who is cool enough without more bells and whistles like being the descendant/embodiment of someone else cool.




Thank you, that sounds great. For me it could be a phylactery of Shoon emperor and reason why each time Manshoon was killed his clone immidiately came for this book by force. Master spellbook twist :-D

I read this whole thing and was like -

Person A: I want him connected to Shoon!
Person B: Well, I feel it makes more sense to do this, this, & this...
Person B: Thats great! Now I can connect him to Shoon!


I LOVE unintended comedy.

I like everything 'mysterious', BTW, like how it was in 1e and early 2e. late 2e and 3e DEFINED too many of these mysteries, taking a lot of the tools out of the DMs hands. GREAT for setting-fans, not so great for people trying to run an RPG. It also inadvertently tied the hands of future designers, because it created way too many 'facts' that now had to be woven into everything (which didn't prove possible, so they just ignored a lot, which lead to the downfall of the setting/fanbase, IMO).

Not really a rant (at this point), just an observation. I don't ever want to know Manshoon's 'real past', because that would be one less thing we can have these interesting threads about.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Sep 2016 04:14:58
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
459 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2016 :  21:56:10  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah it sounds funny if you put it like that. I just nitpicked what suited me and it was a great idea.
As for "mysterious" things I do like the current state of Realms in that we could debate most of those mysteries left as we want because they will not be officialy released (probably never). One bonus of revealed lore is that we can all agree on that as base line. Lot of theories here are problematic to discuss because they are already build upon previous presumptions of the person writing it. As a gameamaster I like most possible amount of lore released/solved because then I can use them well in my game. If I do not know the actual mover behind some action how can my players find out? For me personaly it is a great fun to unravel those lore gems out there and for Realms it feels like peeling an onion for years now.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2016 :  04:19:01  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You NEVER have to explain yourself, dude - I just found it funny, is all. We all do cr@p like that, all the time.

Its your Realms - you do whatever you want with it. If 4e can be 'congratulated' for anything, it was the fact that we hard-core fans now have a complete disconnect with what canon is, or needs to be. I guess sometimes you have to kill something to set it free.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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bloodtide_the_red
Seeker

USA
50 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2016 :  01:51:03  Show Profile  Visit bloodtide_the_red's Homepage Send bloodtide_the_red a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is not the first meeting between Elminster and Manshoon in the story: So High A Price in Realms of Infamy?
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2016 :  03:10:42  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just re-read it.

I don't know if you can count that, for two reasons. First, Manshoon didn't know that was Elminster, so I would hardly call that a 'meeting' between the two. Second, we do not know if Manshoon had actually met the real Elminster at an earlier date; Elminster seemed to know of Manshoon (which may or may not indicate an actual, face-to-face meeting).

RW, It does count as the first published 'meeting' of the two, in that it is the earliest (FR timeline-wise) that we, the fans, are aware of. Its also where we find out why the Old Mage never kills Manshoon (even when he really should).


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1796 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2016 :  06:04:43  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For those who don't immediately see the connection - more information about this bargain is given in DDGttUD.
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1796 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2018 :  04:42:27  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, even Mystra's chosen tip-toed around Larloch, and Chosen ARE demi-gods (what was that nifty 4e parlance for that divine 'tier'?)*

And there is the theory that he is an ex-Chosen (perhaps of Mystryl), so who knows what sort of status that might mean.

On the other hand, Undead can't BE deities... but a couple of them have already broken that rule.


*EDIT: Exarch, wasn't it?



Ed confirmed that Larloch's a Chosen of Mystryl a couple years ago. And yes, they used Exarch in 4e.



Can you point me to this?
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AJA
Seeker

USA
34 Posts

Posted - 14 Jun 2018 :  01:40:37  Show Profile Send AJA a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Can you point me to this?


Self-proclaimed in the novel The Herald apparently (I haven't read):

quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One, 03 Jul 2014, Ask Ed '14

Oh, and one more thing. I'm glad you used the phrase "claimed to be the last chosen of Mystryl," because Ed did caution me that we have only Larloch's word that he is


Confirmed few months later:

quote:
Originally posted by Ed Greenwood, 17 Sep 2014, Forging The Realms: After the Fall

So Telamont Tanthul, an undeniably arrogant and overconfident ruler used to having his will backed by many arcanists of skill and power, came up against a Chosen of Mystryl, Larloch


http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/after-fall


AJA
YAFRP

Edited by - AJA on 14 Jun 2018 01:42:51
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Thraskir Skimper
Seeker

28 Posts

Posted - 14 Jun 2018 :  01:41:55  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have a Magic Item that was found in Thay and resulted is several changes and might explain your Manshoon dilemma.



There are Wizards, there is Magick and then there is Thay.

Edited by - Thraskir Skimper on 14 Jun 2018 01:43:52
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1453 Posts

Posted - 14 Jun 2018 :  12:36:05  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

(...) About 2 or 3 years ago, I asked Ed about an NPC that saw nothing more than 1 or 2 lines of text in a 1990's product. He said the NPC was still under an NDA, but we should get more info in May.
(...)


You surely misunderstood him, he probably said "the character is under an NDA and I MAY give you some info as soon as I can"...


"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)

Edited by - Barastir on 14 Jun 2018 12:39:02
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1453 Posts

Posted - 14 Jun 2018 :  12:38:38  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
(...)

Chosen, Demigods, Quasi-deities, Arch-friend/Celestial, etc (I think beast Lords and Uber fey were lumped in there as well) are all Exarchs.

(...)



I'd like to have an Exarch as my arch-friend!

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1796 Posts

Posted - 14 Jun 2018 :  19:00:39  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Arch-friend... hmmm instantly brings to mind the image of caryatid columns from the old 2nd Ed. Monstrous Manual:

http://www.lomion.de/cmm/golem.php

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