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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32074 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2019 :  15:25:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

5e lore, in fact. The novels that explain that were writen for 5e and changed a lot of the 4e lore. But I get your point.

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones


Nevermind that eating a lesser power should not have boosted the Lord Below to greater deity status,



Azuth only provided the divine spark. What boosted Asmodeus to Greater Deity was the "tiefling curse" (changing all the tiefling bloodlines in the material plane into "Asmodean" ones) that made him a racial god.



Even that shouldn't have pushed him up that high -- it's not like tieflings are a major race, like humans or elves. And it still doesn't explain how -- or why! -- one deity out of dozens located in the Lower Planes could suddenly push the Pause button on a war that had been going on for longer than recorded history.

That curse also made tieflings a lot less interesting. One of the things that made them interesting before 4E was the fact that no two tieflings were identical, because they all had differing ancestries. Forcing them all into one mold took that away.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Mar 2019 15:29:13
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

882 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2019 :  15:43:09  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It gets even funnier when you realize the Lord Below has a very dim view on baatezu procreation. The former Lord of the Sixth before Moloch and his wife ended up in the deadbook precisely because they violated the Dark Lord's edicts on baatezu reproduction.

Non-diabolic tiefling bloodlines shouldn't have been affected by the "Tiefling Curse" either, since the fiendish race most associated with, well, boinking and birthing aren't the baatezu. Alu-fiends and cambions are of tanar'ri stock, and the tanar'ri have at least three demon princes associated with sexuality.

This is up there with Zargon in how silly it is.
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1312 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2019 :  16:14:00  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is a novel explaining why the curse affected all bloodlines (including the demonic ones). Long story short, Asmodeus' followers cursed the blood of certain bloodlines of tieflings with devil or demon ancestors (seems the loths were left outside of this).

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


Even that shouldn't have pushed him up that high -- it's not like tieflings are a major race, like humans or elves. And it still doesn't explain how -- or why! -- one deity out of dozens located in the Lower Planes could suddenly push the Pause button on a war that had been going on for longer than recorded history.

That curse also made tieflings a lot less interesting. One of the things that made them interesting before 4E was the fact that no two tieflings were identical, because they all had differing ancestries. Forcing them all into one mold took that away.





Well, it wasn't just on Toril. In was in the whole material plane (see Bael Turath in the core). So, is a huge number, if you count the many different worlds (settings). Plus, the Spellplague wreaking chaos in the multiverse helped him a lot.

And is not as if the other bloodlines ceased to exist after this. The tieflings in the other planes were left untouched. That's why they reapeared 100 years later.

Mechanically and lorewise, there are a few dragon articles during the 4e era with lore and advise on how to create a different kind of tiefling. 5e also has options for playing different kinds. So, nothing prevents you for playing one of them.

Now, they all look the same in the art, but isn't this happening since 3e? I have a few 3e books, and the few tieflings that appear there are somewhat similar to the 4e ones. So, why blame 4e for something that has been happening since 3e...

Oh, yeah. I remember, 3e is "perfect".

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 17 Mar 2019 16:18:00
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8008 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2019 :  21:03:01  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

5e lore, in fact. The novels that explain that were writen for 5e and changed a lot of the 4e lore. But I get your point.

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones


Nevermind that eating a lesser power should not have boosted the Lord Below to greater deity status,



Azuth only provided the divine spark. What boosted Asmodeus to Greater Deity was the "tiefling curse" (changing all the tiefling bloodlines in the material plane into "Asmodean" ones) that made him a racial god.



Even that shouldn't have pushed him up that high -- it's not like tieflings are a major race, like humans or elves. And it still doesn't explain how -- or why! -- one deity out of dozens located in the Lower Planes could suddenly push the Pause button on a war that had been going on for longer than recorded history.

That curse also made tieflings a lot less interesting. One of the things that made them interesting before 4E was the fact that no two tieflings were identical, because they all had differing ancestries. Forcing them all into one mold took that away.




It made them really interesting from a racist viewpoint.... hmmm, how can I make EVERYONE like me no matter who I mate with (Mulans... certain elven races...). Maybe if I get a lot of tieflings and begin experimenting on them....

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8008 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2019 :  21:04:47  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

5e lore, in fact. The novels that explain that were writen for 5e and changed a lot of the 4e lore. But I get your point.

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones


Nevermind that eating a lesser power should not have boosted the Lord Below to greater deity status,



Azuth only provided the divine spark. What boosted Asmodeus to Greater Deity was the "tiefling curse" (changing all the tiefling bloodlines in the material plane into "Asmodean" ones) that made him a racial god.



Even that shouldn't have pushed him up that high -- it's not like tieflings are a major race, like humans or elves. And it still doesn't explain how -- or why! -- one deity out of dozens located in the Lower Planes could suddenly push the Pause button on a war that had been going on for longer than recorded history.

That curse also made tieflings a lot less interesting. One of the things that made them interesting before 4E was the fact that no two tieflings were identical, because they all had differing ancestries. Forcing them all into one mold took that away.




It made them really interesting from a racist viewpoint.... hmmm, how can I make EVERYONE like me no matter who I mate with (Mulans... certain elven races...). Maybe if I get a lot of tieflings and begin experimenting on them....

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32074 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2019 :  02:19:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

There is a novel explaining why the curse affected all bloodlines (including the demonic ones). Long story short, Asmodeus' followers cursed the blood of certain bloodlines of tieflings with devil or demon ancestors (seems the loths were left outside of this).



So Asmodeus's mortal followers were somehow able to affect all tieflings, everywhere, even on other worlds? Yeah, that makes even *less* sense, now -- especially considering the default planar assumption of 3E was that Toril was pretty much cut off from every other world.

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Now, they all look the same in the art, but isn't this happening since 3e? I have a few 3e books, and the few tieflings that appear there are somewhat similar to the 4e ones. So, why blame 4e for something that has been happening since 3e...


And there are 3E books where tieflings and other planetouched all have a radically different appearance from other members of the same race.

I blame 4E for the one-size-fits-all gig because that was something that was explicitly a part of 4E rules and lore. 3E rules and lore had tieflings all appearing differently from each other.

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X


Oh, yeah. I remember, 3e is "perfect".


Okay, now, this is just ridiculous. I've a long history of criticizing a lot of aspects of 3E, and my default position has long been that the setting needs to revert to the end of the 2E lore era. So don't go putting words into my mouth simply because you disagree with me.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1312 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2019 :  05:09:16  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not your mouth specifically. As a fan of 4e, I know 4e has its failings. Even I critizese them from time to time. But most of what people in all the Internet (not here — here in fact is a healthy place to talk, TBH) critizise of 4e usually was introduced first in 3.x, and 4e only expanded that plot in the logical way it was hinted at in 3e; yet people only critizese its 4e aspect. Unther, for instance, was about to be destroyed, if not by a meteor full of dragonborn, by something else — all 3.x books that talks about Unther hints about this; but people only got mad when it happened in 4e.

So, my bad there. I assumed you did the same. I owe you an apology.

That say, didn't 5e returned like most of the things to a 2e-like status? There are few things of 4e here and there, but are like a 5% at most, and modified in such a way that are 2e—like.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1312 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2019 :  05:14:02  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

[quote]Originally posted by Zeromaru X


So Asmodeus's mortal followers were somehow able to affect all tieflings, everywhere, even on other worlds? Yeah, that makes even *less* sense, now -- especially considering the default planar assumption of 3E was that Toril was pretty much cut off from every other world.



According to 5e, if Toril if not the center of the multiverse, at least is pretty close to it.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Delnyn
Seeker

USA
37 Posts

Posted - 20 Mar 2019 :  00:56:37  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Asmodeus does theoretically command the absolute obedience of every devil in the entire D&D cosmos ... arguably more minions and power at his disposal than any other deity. He's already an immortal entity capable of manifesting god-like abilities and destroying all sorts of deities. At least in the earlier game editions.

So I agree that it's an utterly dumb move for Asmodeus to shackle himself to a faith and a bunch of faithful. He was always able to assert a position of dominance over his followers before, his worshippers/cults were forced to accept (or "earn") meager access to his vast and godlike powers on his terms, they always approached (or were trapped) by him instead of the other way around ... there's really no good explanation for him suddenly preferring a co-dependent or symbiotic relationship on more equal terms. Remember that even if an official deity arrangement would technically benefit Asmodeus it would still not fit his temperament and goals - he is the master, others exist to serve (or be corrupted by him), he does not show weakeness and does not share power.


Furthermore, there is no way in the Nine Hells Asmodeus would 1. put himself under Ao's domination and 2. trust his survival to the number of quality of mortal worshippers.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1643 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2019 :  16:05:16  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Baldur as a male god of beauty regarding the male physique, operates in concert with Sune

Mishakal (DL) as a goddess of medicine and healing, works closely with Eldath

Heironeous (GH) as a deity of freedom fighters

Paladine replaces Tyr in my game and Bahamut is his son

Takhisis replaces Tiamat (who has 3 heads instead of 5) and is daughter to Takhisis

Zinzereena returns as the Masked Lady after an agreement is struck between Eilistraee and Vhauraun to empower her as a third front against Lolth

Cyric is a mad god bent on bringing about an apocalypse

Bane and Bhaal never died and Myrkul is supplanted by Kelemvor as judge of the dead...however, I'm currently running a game in which the Avatar Crisis may have a different catalyst than the theft of the Tablets of Fate and , if all pans out, the gods will walk Toril for a VERY VERY different reason

Loki is a minor deity of cruel mischief

Tyr still exists as a god of harsh justice and is more LN than G (I don't worry much about alignment...especially where the gods are concerned)

Helm = Heimdall (I'm pretty sure this was always Ed's intention)

The Raven Queen is Kelemvor's partner but secretly works against him by siphoning power from the False and the Faithless

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1643 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2019 :  16:10:53  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've been reading the discussion regarding Asmodeus. While I prefer his original role in the multiverse I have some speculation as to why he would become a deity. Namely, to supplant AO. It's really just a thought on my part, but if there's a being in the multiverse who can pull it off, it's him.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3724 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2019 :  16:24:15  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

I've been reading the discussion regarding Asmodeus. While I prefer his original role in the multiverse I have some speculation as to why he would become a deity. Namely, to supplant AO. It's really just a thought on my part, but if there's a being in the multiverse who can pull it off, it's him.



Asmodeus always plays the long game.

AD&D for me!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32074 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2019 :  21:07:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

I've been reading the discussion regarding Asmodeus. While I prefer his original role in the multiverse I have some speculation as to why he would become a deity. Namely, to supplant AO. It's really just a thought on my part, but if there's a being in the multiverse who can pull it off, it's him.



To what end, though? And that assumes that Ao's boss would even allow it...

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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3724 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2019 :  21:20:30  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To pull all of the realms into Hell? Just a guess.

AD&D for me!
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5479 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2019 :  21:54:50  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

I've been reading the discussion regarding Asmodeus. While I prefer his original role in the multiverse I have some speculation as to why he would become a deity. Namely, to supplant AO. It's really just a thought on my part, but if there's a being in the multiverse who can pull it off, it's him.



I hate the idea of archdevils and demon princes becoming gods.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1643 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2019 :  23:26:30  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah I vastly prefer them in their traditional roles (but I'm a bit of a grognard). I'm just trying to justify why Azzy would become a deity shackled to a set of rules and being watched by a superior...unless his endgame is to supplant said superior. I'm sure I/we can come up with other reasons for it though.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32074 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2019 :  02:34:51  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

Yeah I vastly prefer them in their traditional roles (but I'm a bit of a grognard). I'm just trying to justify why Azzy would become a deity shackled to a set of rules and being watched by a superior...unless his endgame is to supplant said superior. I'm sure I/we can come up with other reasons for it though.



If I had to justify the whole ridiculous concept, I'd say that Asmodeus was moving against one of his enemies. Asmodeus becomes a god, which convinces one or more of his enemies that they need to do the same, just to try to keep from getting squashed. Once that enemy/enemies becomes a deity and is thoroughly enmeshed and invested in divine matters, then Asmodeus sheds his own divinity, through some convenient mechanism that was set up before anything ever happened. He goes back to the relative freedom of being the top dog in the Lower Planes, without any divine restrictions, but those who sought divinity as a way to oppose him are now stuck being gods -- which makes them weaker, in the hierarchy of the Lower Planes, because now they have to divide the attention between the Lower Planes and their followers on the Prime.

That's still kind of a weak plot (and a major stretch!), but at least it makes the otherwise nonsensical maneuver have a little bit of reasoning.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1312 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2019 :  06:47:58  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess it makes no sense if you look at it through the lore of 2e. However, you should take into account that WotC discarded that lore and are following their own lore since 3e. And that the plot behind this lore has been modified at least twice (with 4e and 5e).

Perhaps being an archfiend was incredible back then, but since 3e they became noticeable weaker and even more limited that the gods.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 23 Mar 2019 06:50:37
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1643 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2019 :  16:32:09  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Guess I'll mention that I've included the daedra/aedra from the Elder Scrolls as outer planar races. In ES they're worshiped as gods but I don't use them as such. Instead, they're similar to beings such as demons and angels. The twist is that their alignments aren't static but, instead, tend to change. The change depends on criterion unique to each entity.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.

Edited by - The Arcanamach on 06 Apr 2019 16:32:58
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