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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
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Posted - 10 Jan 2018 :  23:20:34  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wonder if the Abeirans who ended up in Toril during the following years of the Spellplague, ended up as false or as civil servants of Kelemvor. They literally did not had gods or a concept of religion in their world, and I feel is really unjust they ended up in the damned Wall for something that wasn't even their fault. Heck, that makes me think that every god in the Realms is evil for allowing that Wall to be made in the first place.

Returning more pleasant topics, I guess that if you don't use Ao in your campaign, then is settled. Odin can have whatever cult in the Realms, with whatever level of attention he wants to his followers, without a problem. Because it was Ao the one who invented those ridiculous rules about "just only one god per portfolio" and that stuff.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
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Posted - 11 Jan 2018 :  00:09:44  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ya know, this thread got me thinking. They rolled Talos into Gruumsh in 4e, so what if - instead of simply bringing Talos back (because now everyone knows its really Gruumsh) - they just kept Wulfgar dead and he could have easily become our Thor-like god, taking the place of the missing Talos. He already had the returning hammer.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Jan 2018 07:20:24
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sleyvas
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Posted - 11 Jan 2018 :  00:45:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Odin's focus is on wisdom, healing, death, royalty, knowledge, war, magic, poetry, and the runic alphabet from what I've found.

So I know with Magic he is opposed automatically by Mystra.

There are also powerful gods of healing, death, knowledge, war and poetry as well. There is a minor god of Nobles too, and even a god that has to do with runes. So not much would be available for him to be worshiped for without direct opposition to some other god.

All that is within the Faerunian Pantheon though...so on the Rock of Bral he is good if he wanted to be right?

So as long as he has a presence in Realmspace, his cleric would have full access to his magic if he happened to be in Cormyr, Waterdeep or even in Shou Lung right?

Is this wrong?



That would be right. He could plop down his clergy amongst the Metahel of Anchorome and possibly be very welcomed.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Storyteller Hero
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Posted - 11 Jan 2018 :  00:48:46  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I wonder if the Abeirans who ended up in Toril during the following years of the Spellplague, ended up as false or as civil servants of Kelemvor. They literally did not had gods or a concept of religion in their world, and I feel is really unjust they ended up in the damned Wall for something that wasn't even their fault. Heck, that makes me think that every god in the Realms is evil for allowing that Wall to be made in the first place.




Being sent to the Wall is not immediate. Every unclaimed soul is examined and judged after a waiting period, during which servants of gods, demons, devils, etc. can try to sway the souls towards their side.

Kelemvor is committed to fairness, so much so that he gave up his own humanity to become an impartial judge.





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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 11 Jan 2018 00:51:05
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sleyvas
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Posted - 11 Jan 2018 :  00:49:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Starshade

Zeromaru: good point, since Odin was overgod of a Pantheon in Norse Mythology. Ayriks solution would work, certainly.
I wouldn't think Odin would get into trouble with Mystra, though, if you goes with a version close to the original. Odin as an norse overgod, was an wizard/sorcerer god, as part of his part as the Divine King, king of gods, and the god of Kings. To explain: the Germanic tribes had a "divine king" tradition. The Chieftain was both high priest and chieftain (but not warleader). His position was thus both proxy from the divine to the mundane, and mundane to the divine. Faults of the chieftain, as improper rituals or issues the people faced due to his failures (as not providing rain, dead crops..), could lead to them strangling the divine King/chieftain and throwing him in a bog, as sacrifice. The Zulu kings were quite similar, as some native American Mesoamerican and southern city state kings.
The "Norse Odin" is actually a later, quite advanced version of Germanic religion, so whatever source in D&D one uses, it could have existed a version somewhere I know nothing about (or no one knows more) who fits that "D&D Odin". Gods change



Then there was the Odin who liked to drive a car and con people who were trying to make bank deposits.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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Posted - 11 Jan 2018 :  00:51:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

In death, Asger himself would likely face the Wall of the Faithless. In life, he would find his "new" religion needs to convince followers that they will not face the same.



So even though not from the Forgotten Realms, he would go to the Wall of the Faithless? Well that just sucks...lol



I don't see this. If a Faerunian priest dies outside of realmspace, generally their soul would be allowed to return "home" according to the lore we've seen. The reverse should be true. Now, granted there may be more of a chance of a soul getting "lost" along the way with demon and devil involvement or something.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
950 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2018 :  00:53:39  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

Being sent to the Wall is not immediate. Every soul is examined and judged after a waiting period, during which servants of gods, demons, devils, etc. can try to sway the souls towards their side.

Kelemvor is committed to fairness, so much so that he gave up his own humanity to become an impartial judge.


While Kelemvor is indeed a fair god, the laws from which the gods of the Realms operate are far from fair. "If you don't believe in a god, then you're false". Etc. But that law doesn't take into the fact that there is a literal world without gods right in the corner.

He would have to do a reform to address that situation in a fair way.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 11 Jan 2018 00:55:59
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6498 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2018 :  00:57:44  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Ya know, this thread got me thinking. They rolled Talos into Gruumsh in 4e, so what if - instead of simply bringing Talos back (because now everyone knows its really Gruumsh) - they just kept Wulgar dead and he could have easily become our Thor-like god, taking the place of the missing Talos. He already had the returning hammer.



Gruumsh was taking advantage of Talos being gone... you'll never convince me otherwise.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6498 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2018 :  01:00:23  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

Being sent to the Wall is not immediate. Every soul is examined and judged after a waiting period, during which servants of gods, demons, devils, etc. can try to sway the souls towards their side.

Kelemvor is committed to fairness, so much so that he gave up his own humanity to become an impartial judge.


While Kelemvor is indeed a fair god, the laws from which the gods of the Realms operate are far from fair. "If you don't believe in a god, then you're false". Etc. But that law doesn't take into the fact that there is a literal world without gods right in the corner.

He would have to do a reform to address that situation in a fair way.



One thing to bear in mind here if it makes you feel better. The "souls" from Abeir don't have an origin on Toril. There is some concept in other parts of the world of people bonding to the land as spirits.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
950 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2018 :  01:15:06  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I still feel uncomfortable thinking about that Wall, even so.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
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Posted - 11 Jan 2018 :  04:11:23  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

Being sent to the Wall is not immediate. Every soul is examined and judged after a waiting period, during which servants of gods, demons, devils, etc. can try to sway the souls towards their side.

Kelemvor is committed to fairness, so much so that he gave up his own humanity to become an impartial judge.


While Kelemvor is indeed a fair god, the laws from which the gods of the Realms operate are far from fair. "If you don't believe in a god, then you're false". Etc. But that law doesn't take into the fact that there is a literal world without gods right in the corner.

He would have to do a reform to address that situation in a fair way.



I'm thinking Kelemvor wouldn't punish those who never even knew of the gods' existence.

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moonbeast
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Posted - 11 Jan 2018 :  07:55:13  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Balmar Foghaven

Considering Silvanus is a celtic Earth god as well, in addition to another deity whose name I can't quite recall at the moment...



Was it Mielikki? She was originally from the Finnish pantheon.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14922 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2018 :  08:05:46  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To be honest, despite my love of mythology and constant talking about the gods (and the Gods of gods), I have never really used FR's local cosmology, and never plan to. I had always used the Great Wheel, before Planescape even existed, because I started with 1e and Greyhawk.

And to simplify it even further - you go to the plane of your alignment, and my version of the Great Wheel only has 9 planes - one for each alignment. Now, if you were a devout follower of a god, then that deity's realm should be in the plane you wind up in, and so long as you did the right thing you get to hang out there. This would work the same way for the lower planes as well - none of this stupidity about worshiping evil gods. Some crazy folks might, but not enough for it to matter. If you were an ebil bastitch all your life, then you' probably be smart to pay lip-service to some evil deity, if for no other reason than you get to chill in their Realm after death, rather than wandering hell for all eternity (which really isn't going to happen, unless you are uber-powerful, because some fiend or another is going to capture you).

So basically, everyone of the same alignment goes to the same plane, so 'KNOW THYSELF', because that will help get you sorted after death. If you were a neutral douche, but were worshiping a lawful good deity (but not doing it all that great), then chances are you are in for some major disappointment when you go knocking on his/her/its door In fact, you won't even windup on the same plane, so you wouldn't even have access to the door). This takes most of the onus out of faith in D&D. The 'Godly Realms' are secondary to this, and really, only the most faithful get let into those. It takes out all the negativity of being agnostic - you can still be a good person and wind up in the Heavens - you just aren't going to get all the 'membership rewards' of having a religion (complimentary rooms, messages & sauna, meal vouchers for the buffet - that sort of thing... and YES, the afterlife IS run exactly like a casino.

And 'Hell' is still a punishment for being a jerk. Hell should never be considered a reward of an evil god, because that's just weird. Now, if you KNOW you're going to hell (and most folks do), then the best thing to do is prayer your butt off to an evil deity and hope you get to go to it's realm (but evil deities are no stupider than other gods, so none of this 'praying on your deathbed and 'finding faith' crap. That just doesn't wash). The last thing any soul wants is to become a punching-bag for fiends looking for some entertainment. On the other hand, 'making deals' using your soul (usually with fiends) will work, but then you are 'owned' by the fiend after you pass (your soul is attached to a soul cage, and can be used as currency. So when you think about it - just about everyone in one of these fantasy milieus is going to know that making such deals is REALLY stupid, so they should be practically unheard of (fiends usually prefer worlds like our Earth for that sort of thing - people will sign contracts while only half-believing in the afterlife).

lastly, each world has a 'weigh station' place, and FR's is the Fugue. Every world has a 'meeting place' assigned to it as well, being 'gods only', which could anywhere, but usually in the astral (FR's is Cynosure). Also, planets with more than one patheon (most earth-like planets, including Toril, Oerth, etc) have separate meeting places from other pantheons, even if they share a world, and those are normally located on the planes that most of the pantheon's deities have their Private Divine Realms (and these would be clustered around the 'meeting place', like a deific neighborhood, of sorts. In pantheons where no one single alignment holds sway over others, the realm could be in the astral as well, but is normally wherever te deity who is considered the leader of the pantheon has it's own Realm. Ao is not just considered the Overgod of Realmspace, he is also considered the head of the faerūnian Pantheon, so he combines the realm of the pantheon with that of the sphere/world (so although Cynosure is where mostly Faerūnian powers hangout, you can find the gods of any other part of Toril or Realmspace there as well, but those gods also have their own, separate meeting spots).

No 'faithless' or 'False' - its just stupid, IMO. If you are faithless, see above. Your soul basically becomes a cosmic hobo. If you are 'false', almost the same thing - it just means you were stupid enough to think you could trick some god into thinking you were really following them the whole time. Now, that doesn't mean there can't be one if you want one, even if you proscribe to everything else I said - it would just mean a certain pantheon - in this case, the Faerūnian one - has a wall like that around the FR God of Death's Divine realm (just like in canon), and when they are 'judged' (at the 'weigh station', in this case the Fugue), they may wind-up there, but that would be a PANTHEON-SPECIFIC thing. False or Faithless from the Celestial Bureaucracy or Zakhara, etc., are first 'filtered out' through the Fugue, and into the plane of their alignment. That means only Faerūnians have to abide by the rules of False/Faithless, not anyone else from Toril or Realmspace.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 11 Jan 2018 :  13:05:18  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
BTW, Dalor, look in the desert of desolation series of modules. It is FR canon even though it was rebranded from elsewhere. In it are gods from several other pantheons, and some of them mention certain gods that aren't part of said temple, but are part of that pantheon. For instance, there is a temple of Balder in the ruined city of Medinat Muskawoon, and this temple contains some Norns (note in actual Norse lore there weren't just 3 Norns... there were many different sets of 3 Norns, of different races, etc...). Anyway, this temple mentions Frigg, Loki, Hod, and Odin. Also, the Utter East definitely has some influence from the pantheon from what I've been told (I really need to read those novels). If you look at some of the Utter East threads we've been using in the past few months, you might find some kernels of interest.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

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Corruption
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Posted - 13 Jan 2018 :  11:14:17  Show Profile Send Corruption a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tyr may be from the Norse Pantheon, but that does not mean that he would have to support Odin. In fact, as the God of Justice he would have to oppose the Vikings raiding and enslaving people (which they did).
The Local Aspect of Odin would treat the Local Aspect of Tyr differently then they would on Earth. (Page 4 of Faith and Pantheons)

Odin would need a Domain for his Portfolio, even as a Demi-God. War is already well taken, so is Magic as a whole. Other options are Song Magic, Runes, Shape shifting, manipulation and trickery among others.
Until accepted, he would be only an Interloper Diety.

When all, even Gods, must die, then live a life worth living
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 13 Jan 2018 :  14:02:56  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Asger's Odin would probably be received in the Realms as just another cult. Perhaps one which could attract many followers and much power in some small area.

IIRC, access typically requires only 50 dedicated worshippers or so. Probably much more on lip service level, but those are easier to gain in Realms. And if in Realmspace, also some sort of contract between the deity and Ao, but that's unlikely to be the problem, given that all sorts of deities jumped on the opportunity.
The real question is why the prospective flock would bother, given abundance of local deities.
quote:
In death, Asger himself would likely face the Wall of the Faithless.
Why? He wasn't an atheist militant, he's a follower of an existing and known (on the Outer Planes, anyway) god.
So either sent straight to Odin, or Tyr would claim petitioners in Odin's name and send over, until it's sorted out one way or another. It's only a minor inconvenience for everyone involved.

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Edited by - TBeholder on 13 Jan 2018 14:05:39
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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 13 Jan 2018 :  21:18:12  Show Profile  Visit Dalor Darden's Homepage Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Corruption

Tyr may be from the Norse Pantheon, but that does not mean that he would have to support Odin. In fact, as the God of Justice he would have to oppose the Vikings raiding and enslaving people (which they did).
The Local Aspect of Odin would treat the Local Aspect of Tyr differently then they would on Earth. (Page 4 of Faith and Pantheons)

Odin would need a Domain for his Portfolio, even as a Demi-God. War is already well taken, so is Magic as a whole. Other options are Song Magic, Runes, Shape shifting, manipulation and trickery among others.
Until accepted, he would be only an Interloper Diety.



To the Norse, Raiding was honorable if you faced your foe. Stealing was cowardly.

It wasn't unjust in THEIR culture just because it would be considered unjust in ours.

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Storyteller Hero
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Posted - 14 Jan 2018 :  00:58:32  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

quote:
Originally posted by Corruption

Tyr may be from the Norse Pantheon, but that does not mean that he would have to support Odin. In fact, as the God of Justice he would have to oppose the Vikings raiding and enslaving people (which they did).
The Local Aspect of Odin would treat the Local Aspect of Tyr differently then they would on Earth. (Page 4 of Faith and Pantheons)

Odin would need a Domain for his Portfolio, even as a Demi-God. War is already well taken, so is Magic as a whole. Other options are Song Magic, Runes, Shape shifting, manipulation and trickery among others.
Until accepted, he would be only an Interloper Diety.



To the Norse, Raiding was honorable if you faced your foe. Stealing was cowardly.

It wasn't unjust in THEIR culture just because it would be considered unjust in ours.



Contrary to popular belief made biased by Hollywood embellishments, the Vikings generally did not destroy entire villages and rape/murder all the civilians on their raids.

According to archaeological studies, Vikings tended to be family-oriented people, and the women and children may even have been brought along in raid ships.

It's like how you don't over-hunt deer in the woods or else there'd be none left to hunt. The Vikings took what they needed for their families to survive and thrive, but except for a number of outlier raiding parties, they weren't harbingers of the apocalypse.

Wars are most often fought because of a lack of resources, and few would be generous enough to give away their supplies to strangers or even trade for them during a time of difficulty, especially if it's pre-Industrial age where there are no supermarkets to buy food from - it's not an evil act to wage battles against another country for the sake of your loved ones' survival. It would be unjust and immoral to punish for that, so Tyr would not be against the lifestyle of such a people, especially when they lack enough alternatives to stop fighting.


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Scots Dragon
Acolyte

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Posted - 14 Jan 2018 :  01:26:35  Show Profile Send Scots Dragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The topic of priests of powers from other planes is actually addressed in both the Grey Box and the revised boxed set for AD&D 2E
quote:
The powers (deities) of the Forgotten Realms are a fairly open-minded group (as such beings go). Clerics of faiths not listed as the major religions of the Realms may still receive spells as normal, though they will not receive the benefits of belonging to an organized hierarchy and may be called upon to explain the nature of their faith more often than those of established Realms churches.

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Balmar Foghaven
Acolyte

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Posted - 14 Jan 2018 :  05:51:04  Show Profile Send Balmar Foghaven a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast

quote:
Originally posted by Balmar Foghaven

Considering Silvanus is a celtic Earth god as well, in addition to another deity whose name I can't quite recall at the moment...



Was it Mielikki? She was originally from the Finnish pantheon.





Actually no, it was Oghma, spelled Ogma in the celtic lore. He was the warrior god of scholars and eloquence, and father of the druidic rune language. But yes, Mielikki is also another good one.

"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline."
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Scots Dragon
Acolyte

4 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2018 :  14:22:40  Show Profile Send Scots Dragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Actually no, it was Oghma, spelled Ogma in the celtic lore. He was the warrior god of scholars and eloquence, and father of the druidic rune language. But yes, Mielikki is also another good one.


Also adding into that, Loviatar is a Finnish goddess of death and pestilence. Another Finnish goddess of death and disease, Kiputytto, was also historically part of the Realms, but her portfolio was absorbed by Talona.

Edited by - Scots Dragon on 14 Jan 2018 14:23:21
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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 15 Jan 2018 :  19:16:14  Show Profile  Visit Dalor Darden's Homepage Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So my feeling after what you have all contributed and what I have read in addition suggests that a Cleric of Odin would in fact be able to function in the Forgotten Realms. What happened to him after I'm still not making a decision on...but it wouldn't be impossible for the fella to operate in Faerun.

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