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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2020 :  23:42:30  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You, as the epic player, may think it's fun to be a useless peon dragged along on an adventure that you can't help with. I can guarantee you'd find few people that wouldd agree.



Wow... really?

To be the Pissasnt, would be a great challenge. To protect that person would be a greater challenge. Sorry I see things differently.

I just laid out a great example of DM play. If you don't see it then maybe we should question your knowledge of how D&D works.

As DM I can do anything... I try to play within the rules. Sometimes it calls for divine intervention I guess at lower levels. Otherwise... I'm on spot. I'm on call. I'm on tag. I get the job done!

Did you even read my DM approach? I could clearly have the 10th level rogue die if the 25th level PC didn't intervene. The game is up to the players.... The DM just makes the story move along.

Sure, you could have all PC's die in your Module, but in the end you have pissed friends who want to play a fair game.

Objective; Take the Shadow Stone and bring it to the elves of Myth Drannor.Not to die; Use every skill and feat you have, including skill-feats and Skill-tricks that change how you do things.

If you're a trickster, then you're golden. Your skill-tricks alone can cause a difference. Add your skill feats to the mix and you're nearly unstoppable.

Three levels in any 3'rd level class in CS will rock you hard.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34169 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2020 :  02:40:23  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Where's the challenge in not being able to do a damn thing except for wait for someone to bail you out? How is a person supposed to have any sense of accomplishment in this campaign? You have them doing minor things that more powerful people could do if it wasn't beneath them, and then they wait to get rescued.

Where does the fun come into this?

"Oh, let me tie your shoes for you, Great Warrior! Now, please rescue me from this thing I couldn't even annoy with a string of critical hits!"

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Mar 2020 02:43:24
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2020 :  03:56:37  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Where's the challenge in not being able to do a damn thing except for wait for someone to bail you out? How is a person supposed to have any sense of accomplishment in this campaign? You have them doing minor things that more powerful people could do if it wasn't beneath them, and then they wait to get rescued.

Where does the fun come into this?

"Oh, let me tie your shoes for you, Great Warrior! Now, please rescue me from this thing I couldn't even annoy with a string of critical hits!"



Ha!! That is a very mundane way to think of the game. You're doing the same things that you would in a party of your peers, except now it's within the scope of an epic adventure or module. If you're the babysitter, then game on. If you're the Basbysitti... then game on again.

Either way, the challenge is there to be had. I'm dumbfounded that you cannot see this. D&D is not hack and slash, but mind over matter and skill over requisite. The hack and slash come after skill-tricks and skill-feats are placed on the table.

Do you even play the Complete Scoundrel supplement?

Skill-tricks alone can change combat, not to mention Skill-feats and the skill-point system.

Try a Rogue/Assassin/Arcane Devotee of Erevan Ilesere. That combo alone will get you very far in any campaign.

Or even try Rogue/Cleric/Sacred Fist of Erevan Ilesere. Who needs weapons when your fists, elbows, knees and feet are weapons? Yes, that is a great combo.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34169 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2020 :  04:35:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What if I don't care about Erevan Ilesere? What if I don't want to play a rogue, or I want to play one that's -- gasp! -- just a single class?

And even if I did care about him, you've still not explained why it's so great to be utterly useless, or how it's a challenge to have no choice but to sit back and let everyone else do everything else.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1263 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2020 :  05:28:12  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The first is terrible. Why are you slapping arcane devotee with assassin? You're only getting 4th level spells.

The second doesn't need rogue. Go monk. Monk 2/cleric 8/SF 10 is a melee powerhouse.

The fixation on how rogues are powerful is especially funny when you consider that it's a t4 class. I like rogues, but let's not pretend that skill tricks are unique to them.
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 27 Mar 2020 :  19:55:45  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think you all misunderstand me. My PC's and NPC's are not looking to be powerful or ultra death-slaying demi-humans. lol. Our group prefers to be challenged and take on classes and class-combos that don't always give you Max effect for your level for maximum awesomeness, but rather, a combined max of skill-sets and feats, PrC's and knowing how to play the game as a Rogue/ "whatever".

Once again my good friends, our campaign is an elven rogues guild. All 6 heads at our table follow or worship Erevan Ilesere. So everything we create I put on Candlekeep.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34169 Posts

Posted - 27 Mar 2020 :  21:09:40  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You're not looking to be powerful, but you focus just on epic campaigns?

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 28 Mar 2020 :  01:25:36  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You're not looking to be powerful, but you focus just on epic campaigns?



Yes. Indeed. When your PC's reach a certain level then everything becomes epic. DUH!! wow. Isn't that 3.5 101?
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 28 Mar 2020 :  01:31:01  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You're not looking to be powerful, but you focus just on epic campaigns?



Like holy wow... are you trying to pick a fight with someone who actually lives and sleeps by the d20 system? A 1st level PC can answer that question just after reading the basic rules.

Once again my friend... we see the d20 system with different dice.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34169 Posts

Posted - 28 Mar 2020 :  02:25:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You're not looking to be powerful, but you focus just on epic campaigns?



Yes. Indeed. When your PC's reach a certain level then everything becomes epic. DUH!! wow. Isn't that 3.5 101?



You miss my point. You say you don't want to be powerful -- but everything you post is about epic level play. I'm not saying there's anything bad about epic level play, but if all you talk about is X, saying you're not interested in it doesn't hold any water.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34169 Posts

Posted - 28 Mar 2020 :  02:27:53  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You're not looking to be powerful, but you focus just on epic campaigns?



Like holy wow... are you trying to pick a fight with someone who actually lives and sleeps by the d20 system? A 1st level PC can answer that question just after reading the basic rules.

Once again my friend... we see the d20 system with different dice.



I don't care what rule system you live by. I've no idea why you keep bringing it up.

And no, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just pointing out that saying you aren't interested in something and then not talking about anything else is a contradiction.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 28 Mar 2020 :  03:07:59  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You're not looking to be powerful, but you focus just on epic campaigns?



Like holy wow... are you trying to pick a fight with someone who actually lives and sleeps by the d20 system? A 1st level PC can answer that question just after reading the basic rules.

Once again my friend... we see the d20 system with different dice.



I don't care what rule system you live by. I've no idea why you keep bringing it up.

And no, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just pointing out that saying you aren't interested in something and then not talking about anything else is a contradiction.



Right. Okay. It's a moot point then.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1716 Posts

Posted - 28 Aug 2020 :  15:59:18  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For some reason I just like voting in polls but this one was a bit 'meh' to me. As pointed out earlier, it really depends on the deity you're following and not all viable options were put in. Cleric can be with any god, obviously. A war deity? Fighter or something similar (not an option above). Also, if you're playing 5e then paladins do not have to be lawful - just embody their deities' beliefs. Besides, one can play a rogue turned paladin with a redemption arc.

Regardless, I voted rogue/wizard because I love arcane trickster types and, well, MAGIC.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1764 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2020 :  20:21:30  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

quote:
So in other words, they're doing the grunt work that the epics could do but don't want to bother with.

They're henchmen, in other words.



quote:
Bingo!!


quote:
I can't imagine anyone willingly playing the peon for someone else's characters.


I can definitely see why, with the way it was phrased from Master Copper Elven Vampire, that his idea would come across (as it did) poorly.

I actually do have players play characters that do in fact end up being servants of another character, or possibly a scribe, apprentice, etc. Though, to be clear, the utility of that is done through heavy RP, and it is never meant to produce a sense of being a lesser player, but rather a mechanism to produce greater RP and a unique playing experience.

It sounds like to me from what Master Copper Elven Vampire was getting at, sadly, was not a true RP situation, but rather one that was using the PC's as mice. That's too bad. That doesn't sound good.

I just wanted to toss out there that there are ways to make it happen (I do in my campaigns as I said) that are not as antagonistic as was presented.

Best regards,


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7311 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2020 :  21:06:54  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To my sensibilities, a rogue character being relegated to a secondary/supporting/lesser role doesn't represent an underpowered class. It represents a lack of attention by the DM or the campaign in utilizing the special skills a rogue can bring to the party.

A rogue (or rogue multiclass) is not inferior to a warrior, wizard, or priest. Rogue characters are seen as unessential in many campaigns (especially at higher levels, where the warrior can tank and the spellcasters can do pretty much anything) simply because the campaigns are designed and implemented from the perspective of making the mighty warriors and mighty spellcasters shine.

A cunning rogue in the party is indispensable in countless situations. Old-style Tomb of Horrors or Undermountain dungeon crawls, intrigue-laden Ruins of Adventure (Eye of the Beholder) or Waterdeep city adventures, pretty much any situation which interacts with Zhents, guilds, merchants, or travels through seedier corners of the Realms (like Westgate, Luskan, Baldur's Gate, Tantras, Calaunt, half of Sembia, etc). If the rogue is shut down or underplayed then it's really because of authors (and/or DMs) have too much bias towards glorious heroics in battle.

Compare to other RPGs where the rogue-type character (the netrunner, the decker, the outlaw, the procurer, guildsman, and so many more) is arguably the most critical member of the group, the one whose skills determine the fulcrum of success or failure for the mission. Where the novels and modules are written to emphasize what they can do in detail, where the other (fighter-like, wizard-like, priest-like) characters are relegated to "henchman" roles.

[/Ayrik]
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1764 Posts

Posted - 08 Nov 2020 :  17:29:57  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Ayrik,

quote:
To my sensibilities, a rogue character being relegated to a secondary/supporting/lesser role doesn't represent an underpowered class.


Agreed.

quote:
It represents a lack of attention by the DM or the campaign in utilizing the special skills a rogue can bring to the party.


I will preface my response to your statement with the understanding that when I run my campaigns, I don't have characters running them with the idea that they are a "rogue" persay. They have a set of skills that are colloquially referred to as roguish skills. The idea being they have something in their "Profession" skill and thus are 'x', but have a certain set of talents for ease of getting a character going.

I feel in telling a story that places a mandate, implied or otherwise, upon the DM to facilitate the utility of a character is a false premise from the onset. Are they a rogue, or are they a person, with a profession, etc., that happens to have those roguish skills? It pushes characters down a path that may or may not be their choice, and I like to leave those options open for development on their terms. In that case the PC's effectively look for prompts in the story from a DM to validate their function, defined by a class. In what I will call a linear progression game (a story running a pre-determined path), that does makes sense. However, if characters are really going to have the freedom to develop their own story apart and free from a pre-determined adventure/campaign, then it seems necessary to have the DM not push them into that role.

quote:
A rogue (or rogue multiclass) is not inferior to a warrior, wizard, or priest. Rogue characters are seen as unessential in many campaigns (especially at higher levels, where the warrior can tank and the spellcasters can do pretty much anything) simply because the campaigns are designed and implemented from the perspective of making the mighty warriors and mighty spellcasters shine.


I really feel that rogues, as well as diviners, or pick any other characters that don't fill the DPS/AOE/Agro function for the swarm and destroy outcome are "seen as unessential." Which is too bad, because stories are about the people/characters, as opposed to an emphasis being on their prowess in 'x' situation. Well, at least that is the high horse I am sitting on when I declare that, haha.

quote:
A cunning rogue in the party is indispensable in countless situations. Old-style Tomb of Horrors or Undermountain dungeon crawls, intrigue-laden Ruins of Adventure (Eye of the Beholder) or Waterdeep city adventures, pretty much any situation which interacts with Zhents, guilds, merchants, or travels through seedier corners of the Realms (like Westgate, Luskan, Baldur's Gate, Tantras, Calaunt, half of Sembia, etc).


I will say, most certainly, in "dungeon-crawl" environments, you are 100% correct there.

quote:
If the rogue is shut down or underplayed then it's really because of authors (and/or DMs) have too much bias towards glorious heroics in battle.


As above, yes. I agree 100% again. That's why I really prefer to have character's developed as fully fleshed people before the campaign begins and have the focus be on a story that allows them to tell, steer, and drive it with the emphasis on the person first and combat prowess second.

quote:
Compare to other RPGs where the rogue-type character (the netrunner, the decker, the outlaw, the procurer, guildsman, and so many more) is arguably the most critical member of the group, the one whose skills determine the fulcrum of success or failure for the mission. Where the novels and modules are written to emphasize what they can do in detail, where the other (fighter-like, wizard-like, priest-like) characters are relegated to "henchman" roles.


You make a really great point here. A lot of games, such as GURPS as well, make it to where avoiding danger is preferable because as in real life, when you take that .357 magnum round, a mace to the head, a laser hit, etc., you're usually toast.

Just to be clear, not being critical of any approach you utilize. I only put forward another set of thoughts on how to contend with certain character archetypes, and to discuss them. :)

Best regards,






Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
394 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2020 :  18:16:08  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sometimes I wonder if we say "rogue" when we really mean "skillmonkey". Especially in high level/epic adventures, of course antagonists account for magic and psionics, or on other planes, magic does not work as intended, if at all. (I adopted many of the planar restrictions on magic and psionics from 1st and 2nd edition into 3.x edition games by the way.)

In this light, a rogue is less a thief and more an expert. Maybe the player tells you she wants the Education regional feat at 1st level and does not give a toss about sneak attack or even stealth and agility features (no evasion or defensive roll). Her character fills the role of the party's "professor" and "MacGuyver" as effectively as any wizard. (Here Craft[alchemy] and Speak Language would be class skills as alternate class features.) Spellcasters should not monopolize the knowledge is power role.
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1764 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  18:40:40  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe Delnyn,

I believe so, if heavy RP is not incorporated. I feel that's how it goes with any high level characters though. It shouldn't be about crunch at high levels, it should be about consequences of using such power, etc. No matter how powerful you are, those consequences will stay and affect a character and groups legacy, and soul.

Best regards,






Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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