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BrennonGoldeye
Seeker

64 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2019 :  18:55:36  Show Profile Send BrennonGoldeye a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

"Heresy: adherence to religious opinion contrary to church dogma."

Seems to me that claiming an ancient deity is gone and supplanted by some new deity would be the ultimate form of "opinion contrary to church dogma". Centuries of conflicts between Western faiths (along with all their own internal divisions, denominations, and schisms) have been caused by exactly this: each faith attests that only their version of the "one" deity exists and any other versions must therefore be somehow misguided, wrong, or false.

Of course "heretic" and "infidel" and "apostate" and "pagan" each has a distinct meaning which tacitly implies some sort of opposition or rejection of a dominant church/religion. They're less applicable when that religion simply lacks any real presence - in which case words like "unbeliever" or "cult" or "fanatic" tend to be used.



I would agree this is how it is in the RW, and to some extent the FR, but the death and reconstitution of Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight/Whoever she really is now, Lathander/Amaunator and Jergal playing tag with various mortals all point to constant change. I mean, Mystra has always been in the FR, but I'm quite sure the Sarruhk didn't give homage to the same Face that wizards do now.

Sam

Sam Noe

Edited by - BrennonGoldeye on 30 May 2019 18:56:40
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6884 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2019 :  21:21:54  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But there is an important difference between RW and FR ...

A deity in the Realms grants followers and priests magic. Spells, granted powers, miracles. Direct manifestations with very obvious and real results. Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight/Mystra might be different individuals assuming the divine portfolio of magic ... but there wasn't any ambiguous uncertainty each time a new goddess displaced an old goddess ... those who worshipped the "real" goddess got spells while those who worshipped the "dead" goddess did not get spells.

It can be more complex in the Realms when a deity continues to grant spells to all faithful on all sides after a schism of faith divides the church. Or when a deity (like Leira, Cyric, Mask, Shar) deliberately misleads worshippers with false/impersonated faiths.
But for the most part it seems fairly straightforward. In the Realms there's almost always a "true" deity, the (non)existence of the deity can almost always be proven (or disproven), the validity (or falseness) of the faith can almost always be confirmed (or exposed).

[/Ayrik]
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1549 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2019 :  22:14:19  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it's more complicated than that. Even in the Realms, divine support or lack thereof of a specific individual can be very hard to determine.

Look at the religion chapter in Power of Faerun and the discussion of heresies.

--Eric

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

But there is an important difference between RW and FR ...

A deity in the Realms grants followers and priests magic. Spells, granted powers, miracles. Direct manifestations with very obvious and real results. Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight/Mystra might be different individuals assuming the divine portfolio of magic ... but there wasn't any ambiguous uncertainty each time a new goddess displaced an old goddess ... those who worshipped the "real" goddess got spells while those who worshipped the "dead" goddess did not get spells.

It can be more complex in the Realms when a deity continues to grant spells to all faithful on all sides after a schism of faith divides the church. Or when a deity (like Leira, Cyric, Mask, Shar) deliberately misleads worshippers with false/impersonated faiths.
But for the most part it seems fairly straightforward. In the Realms there's almost always a "true" deity, the (non)existence of the deity can almost always be proven (or disproven), the validity (or falseness) of the faith can almost always be confirmed (or exposed).


--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
634 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2019 :  12:58:52  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, the Raven Queen is canon in the Realms as of 5e, and following her new 5e lore, she may have been there by the time of the aearee.

I don't recall the tale in Monster Mythology, but if it involves Pazuzu, it doesn't contradicts what was said in 4e.



With the Raven Queen', it's interesting it was somewhat confirmed she was inspired in part by Greyhawk's Wee Jas, when disusing by who deities of the 4E core pantheon were inspired - from page 11:
quote:
The Raven Queen is akin to the Norse pantheon's Hel and Greyhawk's Wee Jas


She is also Lawful Neutral in 5E, like Wee Jas, further cementing the connection (and yes, the Raven Queen has different origins than Wee Jas, but so did Nerull, who was like her a former mortal, and not Pelor's brother. As did other gods, like Bane being born a god, or Kord being the son of the winter goddess Khala, and persumably Zehir, while Oerth Kord was the son of Phaulkon and Syrul etc.)

quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye


I would agree this is how it is in the RW, and to some extent the FR, but the death and reconstitution of Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight/Whoever she really is now, Lathander/Amaunator and Jergal playing tag with various mortals all point to constant change. I mean, Mystra has always been in the FR, but I'm quite sure the Sarruhk didn't give homage to the same Face that wizards do now.

Sam



With Mystryl, Mystra and Midnight though, Ed stated the Mystra and Mystryl are part of Midnight now. And that because of that, Midnight feels uncomfortable around Helm, as she remembers the original's Mysta's love of him, but also how he killed her. And that she fears the primal being, that Mystryl is, and with both fears her personality will be lost to Mystra or Mystryl.

After the Sundering, while Midnight is the mainly the Mystra who returned, she has now has the wisdom of the original Mystra, according to Ed.

So with Mystra, she kinda is is the same, but with a new personality being dominant in the fusion. It always reminded me of the situation with Daniel being the new Dream, after Morpheus died, with him being different, yet the same being, and that in a fashion, it was a "change of perspective".

With the Creator races though, I think the goddess of Magic they worshiped, was Lurue though. Ed himself designed Lurue to be the embodiment of magic in his capaign, but TSR decided they need a more human goddess.:
quote:
Originally, Lurue WAS magic—before Julia Martin added the name “Weave” to my GenCon explanations of ‘the great web of magic that’s everywhere in Toril, binds Toril together, and IS Toril,’ Lurue was the embodiment of the Weave. As such, she could teleport without error or limit, through all barriers and spells, was immune to all known magical [and psionic] effects, could raise dead, heal, regenerate and restore with the touch of her horn—and also spew silver fire from it—and so on. Her very proximity dispels illusions and curses, purifies and neutralizes poisons and taints, and purges diseases. And on and on. [To the usual chorus of “Look, yet another all-powerful Greenwood munchkin!” I reply: Yes. Of course. This is THE all-powerful goddess, and she’s also whimsical. We can’t understand why she does what she does, so she can’t be controlled, or act like any sort of tyrannical munchkin, any more than a mountain range or an ocean can be.] She tended to be as curious as a newborn babe, utterly fearless, and kind to injured creatures. And yes, I tucked in the “patron of virgins, but can also make barren wombs bear” folklore, too. Only virgins could ride her, and those who did got that silver hair the Chosen who are Mystra’s daughters all share, and ‘wild talent’ innate magical abilities, and were marked for special tasks and achievements all their lives.

The TSR designers quite rightly (given the humanocentric core of that version of AD&D, with its level and power limits on non-humans) wanted human gods to be front and center and of the greatest power and importance, so Mystra (most important to intelligent creatures trying to USE magic) became also the Guardian or Mother of the Weave, and Lurue sort of . . . danced sideways. To become the awe-inspiring mystery she is now.


But seeing the Creator races are inhuman (except cavemen), this would be a perfect fit.

Edited by - Baltas on 01 Jun 2019 14:09:51
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1384 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2019 :  15:34:26  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas


She is also Lawful Neutral in 5E, like Wee Jas, further cementing the connection (and yes, the Raven Queen has different origins than Wee Jas, but so did Nerull, who was like her a former mortal, and not Pelor's brother. As did other gods, like Bane being born a god, or Kord being the son of the winter goddess Khala, and persumably Zehir, while Oerth Kord was the son of Phaulkon and Syrul etc.)


Well, I guess that stuff of Nerull being brother of Pelor may be from 3.x, as in 4e he is an ascended mortal as well (he killed an earlier deity of death and stole his godhood).

As for the Bane stuff, much of it is part of a goblin myth (ie. Kord and him being brothers), but you have to take into account that Dawn War Bane was designed to be different to FR Bane, as per his article in Dragon 372. It was with 5e and its need to Planescape it all, that they fused DW Bane with his FR counterpart.

As for Lurue, it makes sense, and I've using that alternative as well. Although, perhaps she had a different name during the Days of Thunder.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 01 Jun 2019 15:48:33
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
634 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2019 :  18:52:12  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, I guess that stuff of Nerull being brother of Pelor may be from 3.x, as in 4e he is an ascended mortal as well (he killed an earlier deity of death and stole his godhood).

As for the Bane stuff, much of it is part of a goblin myth (ie. Kord and him being brothers), but you have to take into account that Dawn War Bane was designed to be different to FR Bane, as per his article in Dragon 372. It was with 5e and its need to Planescape it all, that they fused DW Bane with his FR counterpart.

As for Lurue, it makes sense, and I've using that alternative as well. Although, perhaps she had a different name during the Days of Thunder.



I apologize for the confusion, with Bane, Kord, and Nerull and mostly the Raven Queen, I mean the 4E versions of them. I just wanted how different versions of Gods, especilly the 4E, could have different origins, to explain the different origins of the Raven Queen and Wee Jas. again though, many of these could be just legends, and those could become essentially truth via power of belief, making the situation even more confusing.

This is in part, as Wee Jas, has some fairly interesting lore with the original Mystra and Midnight. From On Hallowed Ground:
quote:
The old Mystra of Toril was an ally of Wee Jas, but the new Mystra has managed to fully alienate her. That might be part of the reason Wee Jas has taken a turn for the worse - her only good friend in the cosmos passed on, and was replaced by a berk who claimed the name but didn't pursue the same vision.


Because of that, identifying Wee Jas with Raven Queen, gives her more attachment to Toril via this - as it stated the original Mystra and Wee Jas were very close (ie Wee Jas only friend in the multiverse), and gives some ground for conflict with Midnight.

But about Nerull and Pelor - yes it seems they might have been only made brothers in 3E, or late 2E, but I must research it more.

Especially that Gary Gygax, in his Gord novels revealed Nerull in reality is the Oinoloth/Oinodaemon Infestix, so this might be his plan for Nerull, ie him being a Daemon-God (Infestix), and Oerth! Nerull being one of his aspects/guises.:
http://greyhawkonline.com/gord/outer.html

For the name Lurue used, it could be Yathaghera, at least among LeShay.

Edited by - Baltas on 01 Jun 2019 18:58:25
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
561 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2019 :  00:34:15  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Batrachi - Ramenos, Blipdoolpoolp, Sekolah, Umberlee, Great Mother, Ghaunadaur, Eadro, Ilesere

Aaocra - Syranita, Remnis, Stillsong

Fey - Silvanus, Mielikki, Eldath, Lurue, (Malar/Herne), Queen of Air and Darkness (Auril), possibly elven gods

Giants - Annam, (Talos), Othea, Hiatea, Stronmaus, Skoraeus, ...

Sarrukh - detailed in book, except for their leader World Serpent.
My take is that he is now a Ahriman/Moander hiding in hell and Asmodeus is the first fallen angel who created Nine hells being corrupted by him. (read carefully Moander's description in older books and you might understand my point).

Other - Amaunator, Jergal, Lathander, Chauntea, Mystra, Shar, Selune, Kossuth, Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia, Tyche, Garagos, Oghma

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Thanks, Eric. Didn't knew about Syranita.

Are there other sources about her besides Monster Mythology?


end of this book is very good source but you have to read carefully. It is in the details...
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1549 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2019 :  11:46:10  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
(...)
Fey - Silvanus, Mielikki, Eldath, Lurue, (Malar/Herne), Queen of Air and Darkness (Auril), possibly elven gods
(...)


Not the Seelie Court?

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
561 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2019 :  21:17:59  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
(...)
Fey - Silvanus, Mielikki, Eldath, Lurue, (Malar/Herne), Queen of Air and Darkness (Auril), possibly elven gods
(...)


Not the Seelie Court?


Question was about time of creator races and in that time elves were not on Toril yet. They might possibly be in Arvandor/Faerie but on Toril there were probably only older fey creatures like treanants, satyrs, pixies, unicorns, ... and the gods who came with them.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
634 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2019 :  13:54:56  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

Question was about time of creator races and in that time elves were not on Toril yet. They might possibly be in Arvandor/Faerie but on Toril there were probably only older fey creatures like treanants, satyrs, pixies, unicorns, ... and the gods who came with them.



I think that while many members of the Seelie Court might not had been yet "born", or present on Toril, but I think Titania might be.

She is Auril's/The Queen of Air and Darkness' sister, and could come to Toril with her, possibly even both being ascended Primal Elves (as 5E calls the Fey Creator species, and group from which LeShay broke of). It's also hard to well when Auril was corrupted by the Black Diamond, so it's possible her and Titania had a good relationship, at least in part of the Age of Thunder.

With Mielikki, I'm not sure if she wasalready present in the Age of Thunder - it is possible she merged with an older fey deity named Khalreshaar/Khelliara (ie Mieliki's elven and Rashemi aspects/aliases), who I think also could be a Yuir deity.
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1384 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2019 :  16:00:47  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think that Mielikki or Silvanus were present in the Days of Thunder. These are clearly human deities, and humanity wasn't that developed at the time. And I believe they started as interlopers from other worlds as well.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
561 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2019 :  17:14:50  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I don't think that Mielikki or Silvanus were present in the Days of Thunder. These are clearly human deities, and humanity wasn't that developed at the time. And I believe they started as interlopers from other worlds as well.


I can agree on Mielikki but hardly on Silvanus - he is mainly a god of any plant creature on Toril so humans are interested only because they interact with his domain.

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

I think that while many members of the Seelie Court might not had been yet "born", or present on Toril, but I think Titania might be.

She is Auril's/The Queen of Air and Darkness' sister, and could come to Toril with her, possibly even both being ascended Primal Elves (as 5E calls the Fey Creator species, and group from which LeShay broke of). It's also hard to well when Auril was corrupted by the Black Diamond, so it's possible her and Titania had a good relationship, at least in part of the Age of Thunder.

With Mielikki, I'm not sure if she wasalready present in the Age of Thunder - it is possible she merged with an older fey deity named Khalreshaar/Khelliara (ie Mieliki's elven and Rashemi aspects/aliases), who I think also could be a Yuir deity.


I haven't found any notion about Titania in FR except Demihuman dieties. Auril is clearly local and I only made connection to her older name. Same with Malar and Herne who I believe is a older name and aspect of the same diety (Herne was important in hunter/gatherer society and he later give in to his bestial aspect as he lost worshipers).
Similar to Herne is a story of World Serpent - he lost interest in serpents and focused more on his aspect of corruption becoming Moander to humans (his symbol is literal biting snake misinterpreted as hand with fangs).

As for primal elves - I have adopted Eladrin as ancient form of elves before they came to Toril (they fit to existing subraces perfectly, see Planescape Apendix II, p.28) and call them Eldarin in connection to S'eldarin (higher or noble eldarin). Older Fey gods live in Faerie/Feywild as did S'eldarin before they left for Arvandor.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
634 Posts

Posted - 29 Sep 2019 :  09:30:10  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
With Silvanus, his origins are quite mysterious, and he is very old, although in the Fey Pantheon, Relkath of the Infinite Branches would probably be worshiped by Fey including Eladrin, although possible Relkath and Silvanus were still one "World Tree" deity during the Ages of Thunder, or both split from the World Tree deity, like Jazirian, Merrshaulk, Ahriman, Shekinester, Ramenos, and possibly Io/Asgorath split from World Serpent.

With Herne and Malar, I can see they were originally the same being - with Araushnee/Lolth even noting that they are extremely similar, when Malar slain Herne, and even then looked very similar, and were noted of similar nature, in Evermeet: Isle of Elves:
quote:
Malar, the Great Hunter, stood over the rapidly fading body of a creature much like himself. Well over twelve feet tall he was, with fur like that of a black bear covering a powerful, thick-muscled body shaped roughly like that of an orcish warrior. Malar lacked prominent fangs to seize and rend his opponents; in fact, he had no snout at all, merely a flesh-draped cavity in the center of his face that served as both nose and mouth. He did not seem to suffer from this lack. From his massive head sprouted a rack of antlers, each point dagger-sharp. The curving claws on his hands were each fully the size of Araushnee's hand. Yet victory had not come easily to Malar: His huge chest rose and fell like waves on a frenzied sea, and the breath that rasped through his oral cavity was harsh and labored.
Araushnee took her daughter's bow from her shoulder and fitted to it one of Eilistraee's enchanted arrows. She sighted down her target and readied the weapon. Although she fully intended to make a deal with the god, she knew the value of negotiating from a position of apparent strength.
"Hail, Beastlord, Master of the Hunt!" Araushnee called out to him.
Malar whirled toward the musical sound of an elven voice and dropped into battle stance: knees bent and muscles bunched in preparation for a quick spring, arms spread in a parody of an embrace, claws hooked into terrible rending weapons. His eyes narrowed into malevolent slits as he regarded the armed goddess.
"What do you here, elf?" he growled out in a thunderous rumble. "This place is none of yours!"
"No, it is yours by right of conquest," the goddess agreed, nodding toward the fallen god. By now, little remained of the bestial avatar but a dim gray outline. "That was Herne, was it not? I have caught glimpses of him before, on other worlds. A pale copy of Malar, to my thinking."


With this, it did seem to me like a battle of aspects.

Edited by - Baltas on 29 Sep 2019 10:12:36
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
561 Posts

Posted - 29 Sep 2019 :  12:28:50  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you for the quote but for me, gods do not act like that. They are not bigger adventurers on the Planes and there is no better weapon than deity's will.
As for battle of aspects I do not see a need for this internal conflict within the deity to manifest outside and split into two beings who battle (unless this story was inside Malar's mind - that would be cool).
For Io/Asgorath splitting from World Serpent - I do not think they have anything in common. Dragons are not serpents in my realms - they are actually closer to Fey.
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1549 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2019 :  22:23:34  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There's a whole lot of avian-themed deities in Races of the Wild for the raptoran pantheon. Seems like that could be repurposed to the Realms as a pantheon for the aearee.

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
561 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2019 :  02:18:53  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

There's a whole lot of avian-themed deities in Races of the Wild for the raptoran pantheon. Seems like that could be repurposed to the Realms as a pantheon for the aearee.


Thank you for pointing that out. I have looked at them and they do not look like racial deities to me at all. They are too broadly written so they ovelap main Faeruninan deities. On the other hand they may be proto-deities of which later ones developed or simply ceased to exist as they are no longer known...
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8353 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2019 :  05:01:06  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

There's a whole lot of avian-themed deities in Races of the Wild for the raptoran pantheon. Seems like that could be repurposed to the Realms as a pantheon for the aearee.




Good point. Looking at them, let's do a quick compare against the great spirits to see if any of them are so similar as to be the same thing (and I only say that because the Aearee were roughly in that area and/or the continents near to that).

Tuilviel Glithien - CG - protector goddess of the raptorans, night birds, stars, moon.…. except for alignment differences (LN instead of CG), this could correspond to the Great Spirit Moon Mother/Yellow Woman/Tih'kuyi who is both a huntress and protector goddess

Duthila - N - hunting and food storage.... no direct correlation to any specific great spirit

Kithin - N - male god of winter, sleep, and death …. no direct correlation... there is a great spirit of winter named Shakak, who is also tied to Magpies, but he's LE. Given that Shakak has ties to birds, I'd say keep him. Maybe even he killed Kithin within realmspace, which could explain animosity with summer (Miochin)…. the two great spirits don't like each other.

Lliendil - CN - male weather god …. this one very much could be Sho#146;tokunungwa who is a similar weather god (and one with oddly a "horn" sticking out of his head.... maybe a beak?), but that great spirit is true neutral

Nilthina - N - male god of summer …. this one very much could be Miochin the god of summer (who is NG) and who has ties to Eagles….

Ventila - N - goddess of spring, fertility, growth, love... no direct correlation to any one great spirit as these portfolios would be split to several (the spring goddess Morityema, as well as Corn Mother, etc... would control these roles)

So, out of the 6 there's 3 of them that would roughly fit amongst the already created Great Spirits if we wanted to say that these are Aearee "gods" who are still around.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2362 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2019 :  21:37:43  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Since the multiverse is, well, multiple, I can imagine any number of deities existing long before there was a Toril. Some may have inhabited other spheres before coming to the Realms, and others may have hung around, then chosen Realmspace as their "home", and these are the "native" deities (though some were probably already multispheric).

Sweet water and light laughter
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8353 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2019 :  23:49:57  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

With Silvanus, his origins are quite mysterious, and he is very old, although in the Fey Pantheon, Relkath of the Infinite Branches would probably be worshiped by Fey including Eladrin, although possible Relkath and Silvanus were still one "World Tree" deity during the Ages of Thunder, or both split from the World Tree deity, like Jazirian, Merrshaulk, Ahriman, Shekinester, Ramenos, and possibly Io/Asgorath split from World Serpent.

With Herne and Malar, I can see they were originally the same being - with Araushnee/Lolth even noting that they are extremely similar, when Malar slain Herne, and even then looked very similar, and were noted of similar nature, in Evermeet: Isle of Elves:
quote:
Malar, the Great Hunter, stood over the rapidly fading body of a creature much like himself. Well over twelve feet tall he was, with fur like that of a black bear covering a powerful, thick-muscled body shaped roughly like that of an orcish warrior. Malar lacked prominent fangs to seize and rend his opponents; in fact, he had no snout at all, merely a flesh-draped cavity in the center of his face that served as both nose and mouth. He did not seem to suffer from this lack. From his massive head sprouted a rack of antlers, each point dagger-sharp. The curving claws on his hands were each fully the size of Araushnee's hand. Yet victory had not come easily to Malar: His huge chest rose and fell like waves on a frenzied sea, and the breath that rasped through his oral cavity was harsh and labored.
Araushnee took her daughter's bow from her shoulder and fitted to it one of Eilistraee's enchanted arrows. She sighted down her target and readied the weapon. Although she fully intended to make a deal with the god, she knew the value of negotiating from a position of apparent strength.
"Hail, Beastlord, Master of the Hunt!" Araushnee called out to him.
Malar whirled toward the musical sound of an elven voice and dropped into battle stance: knees bent and muscles bunched in preparation for a quick spring, arms spread in a parody of an embrace, claws hooked into terrible rending weapons. His eyes narrowed into malevolent slits as he regarded the armed goddess.
"What do you here, elf?" he growled out in a thunderous rumble. "This place is none of yours!"
"No, it is yours by right of conquest," the goddess agreed, nodding toward the fallen god. By now, little remained of the bestial avatar but a dim gray outline. "That was Herne, was it not? I have caught glimpses of him before, on other worlds. A pale copy of Malar, to my thinking."


With this, it did seem to me like a battle of aspects.



Regarding Relkath and Silvanus, the intimations are that Silvanus is a relative newcomer to the realms, whereas Relkath is relatively old. Also, the intimations are that he was "taken over" by Rillifane Ralathil and has no ties to Silvanus (that being from demihuman deities where it has Rillifane taking over several deities like Magnar the Bear, Relkath, and the spirit beasts of things like coyote). I personally like the idea that he's still alive in other pantheons, but not Faerun or the elven pantheon, and thus Rillifane is using his name there. That being said, whether he dates back to the age of the creator races, would easily be in question (that's a long long time ago).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 11 Oct 2019 :  00:09:16  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That then begs the question of how much of one deity another can absorb. For example, the Seldarine absorbing the Yuir gods. Are these Yuir gods still active elsewhere? If they are, this would suggest that all deities are, to varying degrees, multispheric.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Baltas
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Posted - 11 Oct 2019 :  21:34:10  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Regarding Relkath and Silvanus, the intimations are that Silvanus is a relative newcomer to the realms, whereas Relkath is relatively old. Also, the intimations are that he was "taken over" by Rillifane Ralathil and has no ties to Silvanus (that being from demihuman deities where it has Rillifane taking over several deities like Magnar the Bear, Relkath, and the spirit beasts of things like coyote). I personally like the idea that he's still alive in other pantheons, but not Faerun or the elven pantheon, and thus Rillifane is using his name there. That being said, whether he dates back to the age of the creator races, would easily be in question (that's a long long time ago).



quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

That then begs the question of how much of one deity another can absorb. For example, the Seldarine absorbing the Yuir gods. Are these Yuir gods still active elsewhere? If they are, this would suggest that all deities are, to varying degrees, multispheric.



Well, it is implied Rillifane Ralathil at least absorbing at least the Faeruian aspect of Relkath, as this absorption was mentioned to have altered Rillifane predisposition and personalty, with him becoming more primal again - even directly stating Rillifane Ralathil and Relkath merged - and Magnar the Bear actually merged with the "Primeval Bear" spirit that served Rillifane, and now serves him, along the Eagle, and the Raven.
Magnar the Bear and Relkath also returned in the 4E era, when Rillifane Ralathil was noted to disappeared, suggested Relkath unfused from Rillifane (or fully over dominance in their fusion), and Magnar the Bear became independent.

Edited by - Baltas on 11 Oct 2019 21:39:31
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 11 Oct 2019 :  21:38:39  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rillifane is back again in 5e though, isn't he (I thought the majority of the Seldarine remained in tact in 4e, if some lessened in power), but maybe I am misremembering. I will have to check the SCAG deity listing, but Rillifane should have returned in 5e.

EDIT: yup, he is indeed listed in the SCAG.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 11 Oct 2019 22:56:34
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