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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7589 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2018 :  18:50:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, but the thing is some of that stuff was written as subjective to the speaker's viewpoint. The other stuff (in that first response) was written in the form of "this is what happened" for DM's and meant to be for the game in its entirety. That being said, as with anything, ignore what you want, swallow what you want... but we can say that they DID try to explain away the planar and other changes using this mechanism.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31633 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2018 :  20:11:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Yeah, but the thing is some of that stuff was written as subjective to the speaker's viewpoint. The other stuff (in that first response) was written in the form of "this is what happened" for DM's and meant to be for the game in its entirety. That being said, as with anything, ignore what you want, swallow what you want... but we can say that they DID try to explain away the planar and other changes using this mechanism.



I would disagree. They basically said "things changed" in a Planescape supplement -- but the 3E Realms was divorced from Planescape, and had "always" been that way.

So a 2E Planescape module couldn't explain planar changes in the post-2E Realms, because the official stance was that the post-2E FR planar structure was the way it had always been.

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BadLuckBugbear
Seeker

USA
35 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2018 :  21:01:43  Show Profile Send BadLuckBugbear a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Yeah, but the thing is some of that stuff was written as subjective to the speaker's viewpoint. The other stuff (in that first response) was written in the form of "this is what happened" for DM's and meant to be for the game in its entirety. That being said, as with anything, ignore what you want, swallow what you want... but we can say that they DID try to explain away the planar and other changes using this mechanism.



I would disagree. They basically said "things changed" in a Planescape supplement -- but the 3E Realms was divorced from Planescape, and had "always" been that way.

So a 2E Planescape module couldn't explain planar changes in the post-2E Realms, because the official stance was that the post-2E FR planar structure was the way it had always been.



Just ditch the 'official' stuff, then. What's authoritative is whatever the DM says is the ways things are in the gameworld, not the latest thing put out by a publisher.

Problem solved, neh?

Ewan Cummins
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
31633 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2018 :  22:15:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Yeah, but the thing is some of that stuff was written as subjective to the speaker's viewpoint. The other stuff (in that first response) was written in the form of "this is what happened" for DM's and meant to be for the game in its entirety. That being said, as with anything, ignore what you want, swallow what you want... but we can say that they DID try to explain away the planar and other changes using this mechanism.



I would disagree. They basically said "things changed" in a Planescape supplement -- but the 3E Realms was divorced from Planescape, and had "always" been that way.

So a 2E Planescape module couldn't explain planar changes in the post-2E Realms, because the official stance was that the post-2E FR planar structure was the way it had always been.



Just ditch the 'official' stuff, then. What's authoritative is whatever the DM says is the ways things are in the gameworld, not the latest thing put out by a publisher.

Problem solved, neh?



The issue is that the publisher should not be creating problems by ignoring and willfully changing prior lore. I like published game settings because there are so many more and better ideas than I can come up with on my own, and one of the things that first drew me to the Realms was the (at the time) relatively tight continuity.

Basically, I don't want to have to fix things that shouldn't have been broken.

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Ayrik
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Canada
6699 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2018 :  08:58:14  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
More emphasis on one setting means less on another ... it's fair enough, even rewarding, to focus on a more immersive Realms with less thought to what goes on elsewhere.

But yeah, WotC has done a terrible job of coordinating their own "canon", poor workmanship always eventually shows on shoddy products. That being said ... it is what it is, and it's up to individual GMs/authors to pick and choose or clean up the mess in their own Realms, most people eventually come to that realization and stop buying "canon" after enough inconsistencies and disappointments have piled up. 2E Planescape is best served in 2E Planescape rules, 3E Realms is best served in 3E Realms rules, they were never really intended to be parts of the "same" game.

[/Ayrik]
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7589 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2018 :  12:43:58  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

More emphasis on one setting means less on another ... it's fair enough, even rewarding, to focus on a more immersive Realms with less thought to what goes on elsewhere.

But yeah, WotC has done a terrible job of coordinating their own "canon", poor workmanship always eventually shows on shoddy products. That being said ... it is what it is, and it's up to individual GMs/authors to pick and choose or clean up the mess in their own Realms, most people eventually come to that realization and stop buying "canon" after enough inconsistencies and disappointments have piled up. 2E Planescape is best served in 2E Planescape rules, 3E Realms is best served in 3E Realms rules, they were never really intended to be parts of the "same" game.



Another thing to bear in mind is that when all that happened, it wasn't technically WotC yet. It was the whole nebulous TSR to WotC transition with many of the fans even unaware exactly of what was going on from a company standpoint. I can understand WHY it happened kind of the way it did, and actually, given all that, I'm impressed with what that staff came up with for 3e and its transition. What saddens me is that there was no company transition (that I'm aware of for 4e).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Ayrik
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Canada
6699 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2018 :  20:51:11  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Transition period aside, TSR was a non-entity while WotC was firmly at the helm on 3E and all subsequent lore. It's certainly WotC's fault for making no effort to ensure WotC's products were plausibly consistent or compatible with all that came before. WotC's conspicuous lack of any effort to integrate Planescape or Spelljammer lore into their products after all these years has basically voiced their opinion of it all quite plainly.

[/Ayrik]
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Ayrik
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Canada
6699 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2018 :  01:56:38  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The topic has drifted.

Planescape has its own rules for defining where deities have power, and where they don't, and why. So does Spelljammer, although in the context of crystal spheres (and places between them) instead of planes.

And the Realms has its own rules for defining which deities are in charge of which things, and how they interact, and why. A big jumbled mess after five editions of Realmslore (and five editions of game rules by which they abide). In the end there is always the same choice: pick an edition and strictly adhere to working within it, or pick things you like from anywhere you like and work out for yourself how/why they co-exist.

The novel Tymora's Luck describes an interloping deity from Krynn, along with the responses of deities from Faerun.

Another oft-given example is Tyr, basically an "invader" from some Norse world ... he simply arrived at the front of a celestial army and claimed (seized, invented, installed) his divine station in the Realms.

A few other Ao-Approved Realms deities/powers/entities have foreign origins as well. There's not "many" examples but there are enough to suggest that each godly incursion is a unique event handled in a unique fashion and ending in unique consequences.

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31633 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2018 :  02:33:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear



Maybe they just decided to cancel those campaigns, in effect?

Think about it this way: both Spelljammer and Planescape represented changes to established cosmology.
The center of Concordant Opposition was altered in PS to introduce Sigil. That's a significant change.


Sigil is visible from the Outlands, but it's physically impossible to reach -- so Sigil is likely its own plane.

I'd not call adding a city to be a significant change, especially when that city may not even be there. (Unless, of course, there was prior lore saying the center of the plane of Concordant Opposition was empty)

Even if it was a change, adding one city in one place, in all of the planes of existence, isn't significant. Some planes are infinite -- even a large city is nothing compared to infinity.

quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear


But I'd argue SJ made bigger changes, because it altered the physics and structure of the Prime Material Plane, and brought separate campaign worlds together in one plane, instead of leaving them as alternate Primes or simply standalone worlds.


It didn't alter physics -- the physics of space travel was simply not previously explored. And with each sphere having its own rules, I see no reason not to assume that each campaign world is an alternate Prime (or another of the infinite layers of the Prime, which is my theory). Remember, all planar connections were cut off in the Flow, which goes a long way towards saying that each sphere is its own Prime (or layer of the Prime).

quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear

I'm not sure how accurate it is, but one idea that's often kicked around about the failure of TSR is that TSR created too many campaign settings. By doing so it committed resources to niche product lines (all campaign settings are niche)and fractured its own market.



This I have heard before. Though with gaming being more popular and closer to mainstream, I'd think that such a strategy would be more likely to succeed now, as opposed to how it was back in the waning days of TSR.

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BadLuckBugbear
Seeker

USA
35 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2018 :  02:54:02  Show Profile Send BadLuckBugbear a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

The topic has drifted.

Planescape has its own rules for defining where deities have power, and where they don't, and why. So does Spelljammer, although in the context of crystal spheres (and places between them) instead of planes.

And the Realms has its own rules for defining which deities are in charge of which things, and how they interact, and why. A big jumbled mess after five editions of Realmslore (and five editions of game rules by which they abide). In the end there is always the same choice: pick an edition and strictly adhere to working within it, or pick things you like from anywhere you like and work out for yourself how/why they co-exist.

The novel Tymora's Luck describes an interloping deity from Krynn, along with the responses of deities from Faerun.

Another oft-given example is Tyr, basically an "invader" from some Norse world ... he simply arrived at the front of a celestial army and claimed (seized, invented, installed) his divine station in the Realms.

A few other Ao-Approved Realms deities/powers/entities have foreign origins as well. There's not "many" examples but there are enough to suggest that each godly incursion is a unique event handled in a unique fashion and ending in unique consequences.



True.

I'm going to delete some of my posts to help get it back on track.

Ewan Cummins
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7589 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2018 :  13:16:27  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

The topic has drifted.

Planescape has its own rules for defining where deities have power, and where they don't, and why. So does Spelljammer, although in the context of crystal spheres (and places between them) instead of planes.

And the Realms has its own rules for defining which deities are in charge of which things, and how they interact, and why. A big jumbled mess after five editions of Realmslore (and five editions of game rules by which they abide). In the end there is always the same choice: pick an edition and strictly adhere to working within it, or pick things you like from anywhere you like and work out for yourself how/why they co-exist.

The novel Tymora's Luck describes an interloping deity from Krynn, along with the responses of deities from Faerun.

Another oft-given example is Tyr, basically an "invader" from some Norse world ... he simply arrived at the front of a celestial army and claimed (seized, invented, installed) his divine station in the Realms.

A few other Ao-Approved Realms deities/powers/entities have foreign origins as well. There's not "many" examples but there are enough to suggest that each godly incursion is a unique event handled in a unique fashion and ending in unique consequences.



On Tyr specifically, I honestly don't think he's as brand new to the realms as its made out to be. I think the northmen that are found elsewhere in the realms have him.... but that's my own belief. I also think the Rus had him. I think his previous sources are correct in that he is an interloper, but that his interloping came much much earlier and in different parts of the world. But, I also know that that's very much non-canon.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6699 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2018 :  14:17:12  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tyr has been around for ages, along with those who worship Tyr (under different names). He's a well-established facet of the Realms, a pillar of the Faerunian mythos.

My point is only that Tyr wasn't originally made in and for the Realms, he's not one of Ao's creations. He might (or might not) have been part of Ao's grand plans all along. But he came from somewhere else. And his arrival spilled much blood. The literature we have always describes strife and discord among established Realms deities (and catastrophic fallout in the Realms) whenever a new (or old) member attempts to (re)join their divine ranks and elbow into the balance of portfolios and powers - it's reasonable to expect that these deities always behaved that way before (even when Tyr arrived), even if we have no records of it, unless Ao directly imposed himself and his rules upon them.

[/Ayrik]
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
320 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2018 :  17:36:11  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Yeah, look at Krynn... elven deities aren't there. Eberron didn't have them. Athas didn't have them. Birthright didn't have the standard elven pantheon either (though they had Moradin in the world), and those elves are noted as not worshipping deities. Mystara had other elven deities. And that's just the big campaign settings... we don't know about smaller places like Jakandor, Ghostwalk, etc... that never got a whole world type explanation. It may actually be that the Seldarine are only found in Greyspace, Realmspace, and maybe a few other crystal spheres.



The planets themselves not having the deities isn't conclusive; Ptah has no sway on Toril itself for example, nor does Celestian. That doesn't necessarily mean they don't gain spells though, or that the deities aren't found in the Crystal Sphere itself. Many of those campaign settings you mentioned don't have canonical crystal spheres, so we don't have enough information to really judge them.

Given that Krynnspace is detailed, and not listed as exceptions to "Ptah and Celestian are present eveywhere," it is reasonable to conclude that it is possible for the Seldarine to have access to the sphere (but not the planet of Krynn), although it is just as possible the good deities grant spells to foreign elves so long as they don't proselytize.

Unfortunately, it is one of the many elements Spelljammer didn't detail well enough.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1747 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2018 :  22:21:44  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But what's the problem?
Normally, a deity can provide divine magic if a sphere provides certain minimum of worship necessary to ensure access.
There's no reason why in Realmspace it can't be the same plus requirement of a "contract" with Ao.

quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Given that Krynnspace is detailed, and not listed as exceptions to "Ptah and Celestian are present eveywhere," it is reasonable to conclude that it is possible for the Seldarine to have access to the sphere (but not the planet of Krynn), although it is just as possible the good deities grant spells to foreign elves so long as they don't proselytize.

Ptah and Celestian are specifically accessible from any sphere by their nature. In Realmspace they may be an exception.
But even if not? They had some divine essence cut off as "avatars", but probably waited it out away from Toril. Being the only ones who would start in wildspace, and at peace with each other, their avatars won't have serious problems, unlike the groundling gods.

The Seldarine are merely widespread on their own and have allies for extra coverage.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
320 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2018 :  01:39:15  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

Ptah and Celestian are specifically accessible from any sphere by their nature. In Realmspace they may be an exception.
But even if not? They had some divine essence cut off as "avatars", but probably waited it out away from Toril. Being the only ones who would start in wildspace, and at peace with each other, their avatars won't have serious problems, unlike the groundling gods.



The clergies of Ptah and Celestian say it is their nature. Others point out that there could be other reasons (Ptah's church is very old, and they could have established their faith almost everywhere, and Celestian's church encourages actively wandering everywhere and have a strong connection with the Seekers, allowing them to have established themselves everywhere in short order, for example). In other words, it is the classic case of "this is what people believe to be true but we have left you, the DM, wiggle room to do something different or throw in a surprise for the players."

Realmspace can't be an (obvious) exception since it is one of the major published spheres; the Spelljammer material would have mentioned any notable exceptions with the sphere. Of course, the published material focuses on Wildspace rather than the planets themselves, which allows for flexibility with how things operate on Toril itself.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

837 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2018 :  02:28:38  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Notably, Celestian was involved with trying to smuggle Waukeen's avatar away, though he refused to get further involved and annoy AO.
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 14 Sep 2018 :  14:04:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It kind of makes me wonder if Ptah and Celestian are a "different kind" of "god". Much as how we have demons and devils, Archfey, Primordials, Powers of Shadow, Vestiges, etc... that grant divine power "like a god".

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Ayrik
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Canada
6699 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2018 :  14:45:14  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Krashos and Shemmy have suggested Ptah is an overgod. Based on the abilities of Ptah (and his followers) described within Spelljammer material. Not "canon" but good enough authority for me.

And, if you accept 4E canon, then Mystra must also be an overgod ... how else could her death have consequences spanning worlds across the the entire D&D cosmos? Quite a grand feat for a mere "Greater Goddess" supposedly born in and of and for the Realms. I mean, the death of Corellon, for example, would touch many worlds - every world populated by elves or fey - and still not have as much cosmic scope as the 4E Spellplague.

(I keep things simple for myself by rejecting 4E canon, lol.)

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 14 Sep 2018 14:54:17
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7589 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2018 :  00:34:12  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Krashos and Shemmy have suggested Ptah is an overgod. Based on the abilities of Ptah (and his followers) described within Spelljammer material. Not "canon" but good enough authority for me.

And, if you accept 4E canon, then Mystra must also be an overgod ... how else could her death have consequences spanning worlds across the the entire D&D cosmos? Quite a grand feat for a mere "Greater Goddess" supposedly born in and of and for the Realms. I mean, the death of Corellon, for example, would touch many worlds - every world populated by elves or fey - and still not have as much cosmic scope as the 4E Spellplague.

(I keep things simple for myself by rejecting 4E canon, lol.)



If one wanted to accept that the confluence of the changes by Vecna a little over a decade prior were "rolling" through the "multiverse" still (because he had in theory split out the links of the prime planes to the outer planes, while Ao himself had split out Abeir and Toril into a prime with a crystal sphere and something else), and that Mystra provided enough "stability" that the crystal sphere was "holding this off"... the spellplague might be considered the confluence of many other changes rolling into one.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7589 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2018 :  00:48:13  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Krashos and Shemmy have suggested Ptah is an overgod. Based on the abilities of Ptah (and his followers) described within Spelljammer material. Not "canon" but good enough authority for me.

And, if you accept 4E canon, then Mystra must also be an overgod ... how else could her death have consequences spanning worlds across the the entire D&D cosmos? Quite a grand feat for a mere "Greater Goddess" supposedly born in and of and for the Realms. I mean, the death of Corellon, for example, would touch many worlds - every world populated by elves or fey - and still not have as much cosmic scope as the 4E Spellplague.

(I keep things simple for myself by rejecting 4E canon, lol.)



If one wanted to accept that the confluence of the changes by Vecna a little over a decade prior were "rolling" through the "multiverse" still (because he had in theory split out the links of the prime planes to the outer planes, while Ao himself had split out Abeir and Toril into a prime with a crystal sphere and something else), and that Mystra provided enough "stability" that the crystal sphere was "holding this off"... the spellplague might be considered the confluence of many other changes rolling into one.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
320 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2018 :  01:14:37  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Krashos and Shemmy have suggested Ptah is an overgod. Based on the abilities of Ptah (and his followers) described within Spelljammer material. Not "canon" but good enough authority for me.



I don't agree. The only two overpowers we know of don't match any of the other gods in character or mechanics. IMO, seeing Ptah, or Io, or other previous "normal" deities as an overpower represents significant "power creep," in that essentially people are saying "we want these individual deities to be powerful, but calling them a greater god and having them match the power levels of Zeus or Ra or whoever doesn't feel powerful enough."

I believe Overpowers should be seen as aloof administrators, and almost completely inscrutable to mortals, and mostly inscrutable to the gods themselves, while being very powerful in some regards (allowing/disallowing gods, for example), but completely powerless in others (granting spells for example). That we don't know who the overpowers of most other crystal spheres are makes me feel this matches the lore best.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

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Posted - 15 Sep 2018 :  04:17:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I dunno, with only a couple of overpowers to look at, neither one of which is overly well-defined, we're reduced to saying "this one is not like these other two." And while you could certainly argue, based on that, that Ptah is not an overpower, I'm thinking that perhaps our definition of overpower is overly restrictive -- maybe Ao is the overpower that's the oddball, not Ptah.

Not saying that I think Ptah is an overpower; I'm saying that we have an awfully small sample size for what overpowers are like. It's not inconceivable that overpowers could fit into different categories, each very different than the others, with only a certain level of power as the common denominator.

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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1747 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2018 :  12:13:35  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There certainly are powers that "stepped aside" of the usual hierarchy, too (like Anubis).
But these two fall under "it's directly related to the primary part of their portfolio".
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Realmspace can't be an (obvious) exception since it is one of the major published spheres; the Spelljammer material would have mentioned any notable exceptions with the sphere. Of course, the published material focuses on Wildspace rather than the planets themselves, which allows for flexibility with how things operate on Toril itself.

Whether they have access because they always do, or "on contract" with Ao like everyone else would make any difference only in context of what happened in spelljamming community of Realmspace during ToT. Which was never touched, AFAIK.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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sleyvas
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USA
7589 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2018 :  14:47:41  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Krashos and Shemmy have suggested Ptah is an overgod. Based on the abilities of Ptah (and his followers) described within Spelljammer material. Not "canon" but good enough authority for me.



I don't agree. The only two overpowers we know of don't match any of the other gods in character or mechanics. IMO, seeing Ptah, or Io, or other previous "normal" deities as an overpower represents significant "power creep," in that essentially people are saying "we want these individual deities to be powerful, but calling them a greater god and having them match the power levels of Zeus or Ra or whoever doesn't feel powerful enough."

I believe Overpowers should be seen as aloof administrators, and almost completely inscrutable to mortals, and mostly inscrutable to the gods themselves, while being very powerful in some regards (allowing/disallowing gods, for example), but completely powerless in others (granting spells for example). That we don't know who the overpowers of most other crystal spheres are makes me feel this matches the lore best.

Jeff



Agreed. As I was saying before, perhaps Ptah and Celestian should be looked at as another "kind" of being that can issue divine power in a way similar to a god. Essentially, when you look at these other "kinds" of beings they are powers in relation to a certain "planar structure". Primordials GENERALLY have ties to the elemental planes. Demon and Devils who can extend divine power are related to the nine hells and the abyss. Powers of Shadow obviously have ties to the shadowfell and other "shadow" planes. Archfey have ties to the feywild and other "fey" planes like Faerie. "Spirit" beings have ties to the Spirit World (which opens up an interesting can of worms with Kara-Tur). Then there's far realms powers and beings that have transitioned to being vestiges. Perhaps Ptah and Celestian somehow or other actually draw power from the Phlogiston itself as something akin to a "primordial" of the flow.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 15 Sep 2018 14:49:30
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