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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2016 :  14:32:46  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Prior to 4e, Auril and the Queen of Air and Darkness were entirely separate beings. The Queen was corrupted by the Black Diamond and is Titania's sister, Auril seems to be either a friend or daughter of Loki (they share the same Outer Planar realm).



Yes, but Auril was said to have been once stronger, before Talos drained her, ever since 1st edition. About Auril from Faiths and Avatars(2E, were she allready became a lesser deity):
quote:
"She has seen much of her personal power eroded by Talos, as a result, the winters ha grown colder in the last decade, to remind northeners who controls the power of cold"


Auril being on Pandemos of Pandemonium, may be more connectd to Talos keeping her under a close watch, as he also had his realm there in 1e and 2e. Curiously though, Auril and the Queen of Air and Darkness both had their Realms in Pandemonium.
Auril's description, and behaviour is also very Fey-like, especially close to descriptions of more malovelent fey, as desceribed in Faiths and Avatars:
quote:
When portrayed, Auril appears similar to her Frostmaiden avatar She is a fickle, vain, and evil creature whose cold divine heart remains
untouched by any hint of true love, noble feeling, or honor. She
often toys with those who offend her, trapping them in snow storms and
then driving them insane by tantalizing them with visions of warmth and
the comforts of home before she freezes them to death. Her eternal beauty
is cold and deadly, the flower of womanhood preserved forever in a slab of
arctic ice#8212;with sensibilities to match the ice.


Evil fey, also very often connected with Frost and Winter, and the very Unseelie Court was connected with Winter in Foklore. It makes me wonder if Auril wasn't intended to some sort of ascended Frost Fey from the begining, although not the Queen of Air and Darkness.

Still, they are quite similar, as the Queen of Air and Darkness was repetedly described as "cold", and draining being of their will and autonomy, exacly like Auril does by driving her victims trapped in snow storms insane by tantalizing them with visions of warmth and
the comforts of home before she freezes them to death.

Auril's Icedawn Avatar is also similar to the Queen of Air and Darkness' avatar, with the Queen's Avatar, seeming like a middle ground between the Frostmaiden Avatar, and Icedawn one:
quote:

Icedawn is a silent, gliding apparition of icy hauteur, an impassive figure in
an ornate crown and hooked, spurred armor of opaque, light blue ice.


And the Queen of Air and Darkness, as described in Monster Mythology:
quote:
The Queen has no corporeal body, but if magically perceived
she appears as a female faerie of terrible, cold beauty, with
bone-white skin, angular features, eyes with a black cornea and
an inner blood-red lens, and a mane of black hair.


Again, this similarities are probably because Auril may be inspired by stories of evil, winter fey, but still, this is why I think the Queen of Air and Darkness and Auril Conflation, was the best 4E one.

And I wonder if Karaken aren't descended from Sea dwelling Batrachi, who stayed in their cephalopod form, like Tako(who are confimed to be descended/created by Batrachi, and according to Brain R. James forum post "the tako ruled over tribes of kuo-toa, locathah, and other species of aquatic batrachi."). As Take live in more temparate waters, kraken could evolve from Batrachi living in colder waters.
This could make Panzuriel Another From the Great School of Sea deities of Batrachi.
Also, in Brain R. James Reign of Dragons, it were also again the Batrachi who gated Krakentua into the Realms...

When we think bout it, Batrachi are responcible for a bulk of Lovecraftian stuff in the Realms, creating. becoming, or summoning them. Aboleths, Kou-Toa, Krakentua, Hargot, maybe even Ilithid...

Edited by - Baltas on 31 May 2016 14:45:08
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7439 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2016 :  14:49:17  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Purple Rocks does sound like a good candidate for a cthulhu esque adventure but the island is portrayed that way because of the Kraken Society that controls much of what happens there.



The Kraken society and followers of Dagon might go hand in hand, so to speak.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7439 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2016 :  14:54:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Krakens already have a racial god - Panzuriel. Umberlee is more associated with natural disasters of the waters than to aquatic creatures; if I had to thematically tie her to anything it would shark monsters, like Pathfinder's cetus.



Actually, in the Realms, according to Faiths and Pantheons pagw 220 Panzuriel is merelly an alias of Umberlee. This suggests Umberlee destroyed Panzuriel's Realms aspect, or subsumed/absorbed Panzuriel in the Realms.



That's a bit difficult to believe; Panzuriel is an Intermediate Power while Umberlee's only a lesser deity.

I'd personally suggest that while Umberlee is heavily worshipped, Panzuriel's one of those old gods revered by ancient sea monsters. He's more interested in having his revenge on Deep Sashelas, while Umberlee's more a nature god. Mostly, I see Panzuriel as one of those really creepy, monstrous gods; the type that has Umberlee teaming up with Valkur and DS to restrain.



remember, there's power levels outside the realms and power levels in the realms. A deity might have great power in the realms and minor power outside.... or the reverse (great power outside the realms, but within the realmspace crystal sphere they're considered little more than a demi-god).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2016 :  17:54:06  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas


Actually, in the Realms, according to Faiths and Pantheons pagw 220 Panzuriel is merelly an alias of Umberlee. This suggests Umberlee destroyed Panzuriel's Realms aspect, or subsumed/absorbed Panzuriel in the Realms.



That's a bit difficult to believe; Panzuriel is an Intermediate Power while Umberlee's only a lesser deity.

I'd personally suggest that while Umberlee is heavily worshipped, Panzuriel's one of those old gods revered by ancient sea monsters. He's more interested in having his revenge on Deep Sashelas, while Umberlee's more a nature god. Mostly, I see Panzuriel as one of those really creepy, monstrous gods; the type that has Umberlee teaming up with Valkur and DS to restrain.



remember, there's power levels outside the realms and power levels in the realms. A deity might have great power in the realms and minor power outside.... or the reverse (great power outside the realms, but within the realmspace crystal sphere they're considered little more than a demi-god).



Well, what you think, is more or less what I meant earlier:
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Well, possibly, although the divine power levels, might not be the same in the Realms, as outside them. Mielikki and Loviatar were/are demigods outside the Realms, and Tyr is a Greater Power in the Realms, but Intermediate or Greater outside of them. And on the other hand, outside the Realms Bast was a lessser goddess, but now, even after merging with Felidae and Zandilar the Dancer, is a demigoddess, persumably due to her specific situation, and her worship being partially absorbed into that of Shar.
Umberlee's companion, Auril, was a Intermediate Goddess outside the Realms as the Queen of Air and Darkness, but in the Realms, was originally a lesser goddess, or even demigoddess(although to be fair, even in 1e, it was said Auril was significantly drained from power by Talos, if I remember right), only becoming again a Intermediate Deity in 4e.



Although again, I think now Umberlee may have usurped Panzuriel's worship, via impersonation, similary to Set usurping Sseth's.

Also, here are some of Brain R. James thoughts from an unreleased Batrachi Empires article aparently:
quote:

Here are some brief notes I penned a while back on the batrachi empires. I agree that it would be great to see an article or two on the creator races but WotC these days is more interested in the present than the ancient past.

-------

Kolophoon, Boitumelo, and Nadezhda, along with Zhoukoudien and Pourounkorokale are all Batrachi Empires. I had briefly mentioned Zhoukoudien in my Candlekeep IV article, but I wanted there to be multiple batrachi nations represented on the map so the names were all pulled out of my head.

Pourounkorokale is the longest lived of the batrachi nations and existed entirely underneath the southern waters of the Black Sea (modern day Shining Sea). From their crystalline cities the wise tako ruled over tribes of kuo-toa, locathah, and other species of aquatic batrachi. Though Pourounkorokale survived the fall of great Batrachi Empires, their race became nearly extinct with the ensuing war against conquering seawurms and the ultimate betrayal by their sahuagin allies. Survivors fled through the Strait of Lopango to new homes in the Sea of Corynactis (west of modern day Maztica).

The domain of Boitumelo was centered on the ancient Narrow Sea (in modern day Anauroch). This realm of loosely confederated nations was peopled by tribes of kappa, sivs, and grippli.

The lands surrounding and beneath the modern day Wizards Reach and Alamber Sea were the domain of the Kolophoon Sovereignty. Here aboleths ruled supreme over their kopru and froghemoth servitors and it is thought that these primordial batrachi opened gates to the Far Realm unleashing the first aberrations upon Abeir-Toril.

The largest of the batrachi surface nations, Zhoukoudien, was ruled by an unnamed amphibian species whose descendants became bullywugs. Their wars against the giants are legendary and it is thought that their misguided actions led to the Tearfall and the ensuing Seven Turn Winter.

Nadezhda was a great forested region (in modern day Maztica) once populated by human tribes which migrated across the Strait of Lopango to flee enslavement by the Yuan-ti of Mhairshaulk. Their respite was short lived, however, as the human tribes were quickly infiltrated and eventually supplanted by batrachi doppelgangers. Nadezhda ultimately fell to Aearee expansion as that race moved into the region.


https://web.archive.org/web/20151102221533/http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2994836

As Tako seemed to be the supreme aquatic Batrachi, I guess Krakens could be their more malovelent, and cold liking offshoot. One could combine it with Panzuriel, or even Dagon, seeing Batrachi had connection to Dagon.

A Northern Tako/proto-Kraken civilisation, might be also what Slarkrethel could have in mind, when he wanted to bring back Kraken to their former greatness.

Edited by - Baltas on 31 May 2016 18:00:13
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sleyvas
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USA
7439 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2016 :  19:50:16  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like where you're going with the cataloguing what might be related to the batrachi and what they created. I think that the idea of a "Serpent Kingdoms" type supplement, but for what the Batrachi created, could prove to be a very interesting thing indeed. I venture that Tako, Krakens, bullywugs, dopplegangers, locathah, sivs, grippli, kopru, Slaad, froghemoths, and Kuo-Toa MAY have all come from the Batrachi civilization.

Similarly, the question of the Aearee civilization would be interesting to see some expounding upon. Especially given that we know that reptilian beings with feathers may have had ties to the Aeree. They also created the wyverns. I'd venture that Couatls may have come from the Aearee, and that Maztica may have held a large Aearee culture. Of course, we all believe that aarakocra and kenku came from the Aearee, but what about various winged reptilian races (besides draconic ones like dragonborn). . Raptorans from races of the wild would also fit. Also, more bestial creatures such as giant owls, giant eagles, rocs, etc.... might they have ties to the Aearee?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
4120 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2016 :  20:12:25  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought the couatl were sarrukh that were converted into their current form by jazirian.
Not sure where i got that from though, maybe serpent kingdoms

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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3025 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2016 :  20:57:03  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

What race/region do you think would make for the best imitation of Lovecraft's Shadow over Innsmouth? I'm playing with the idea of surprising my players.

Here are my thoughts...

1. The Kuo-Toa look the most like the Deep Ones, but I don't know if they are quite Cthulu-esque enough...

2. The Shalarin in the Sea of Corynactis already worship Dagon, but geographically they aren't close enough to mainland Faerun to allow for an Innsmouth type town (maybe set it in Maztica?)

How could I adapt the Innsmouth look then to the town's inhabitants? Interbreeding doesn't really seem to be an option. (should I use the magical experimentation handwave?)




Two words: Undersea Illithids.

-- George Krashos


Oh, my, my, my...



"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2016 :  08:14:47  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I like where you're going with the cataloguing what might be related to the batrachi and what they created. I think that the idea of a "Serpent Kingdoms" type supplement, but for what the Batrachi created, could prove to be a very interesting thing indeed. I venture that Tako, Krakens, bullywugs, dopplegangers, locathah, sivs, grippli, kopru, Slaad, froghemoths, and Kuo-Toa MAY have all come from the Batrachi civilization.

Similarly, the question of the Aearee civilization would be interesting to see some expounding upon. Especially given that we know that reptilian beings with feathers may have had ties to the Aeree. They also created the wyverns. I'd venture that Couatls may have come from the Aearee, and that Maztica may have held a large Aearee culture. Of course, we all believe that aarakocra and kenku came from the Aearee, but what about various winged reptilian races (besides draconic ones like dragonborn). . Raptorans from races of the wild would also fit. Also, more bestial creatures such as giant owls, giant eagles, rocs, etc.... might they have ties to the Aearee?



Well, from The Grand History of the Realms, we know that Aearee also created Wyverns from landwurm stock. In Brian R. James(co-creator of The Grand History of the Realms) Reign of Dragons Aearee also created Manricores from Lammasu stock, and drakes also persumably from landwurm stock. Aearee also aparently created much species less related to them, as Aearee, after a destructive war with Lammasu, vowed to never again pit away their own kind against their enemies, instead breeding warrior races to fight in their steed.

Gray Richardson has also some very interesting thoughts about Aearee, and their decesdants:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12568

Raptorrans, I'm not sure if aren't maybe a product of (possibly artificial) aearee and avariel crossbreeding. The goddess of Aarakocra, Syranita, was worshipped by aearee, and was allied so closelly to Aerdrie Faenya, Syranita allowed herself to be absorbed by Aerdrie, when she was suffering from decline in worship.

As peetitioners worshipping Seldarine are reincarnated as elves, Raptorrans might have beeen created as middle ground betwee Avariel and Aearee, so that all aearee souls worshipping Aerdrie wouldn't get reinarnated as Avariel or even normall elves.
Or Raptorrans were created by Aearee out of Avariel stock, with of bit themselves(Aearee), as a more warlike race, to fight in their steed, as again, Aearee done so after the was with Lammasu.
Or even creeated with the agreement of Avariel, to create a crossbreed species combining elements from both Aearee and Avariel, that would have a higher chance of survival.

Curiously, the goddess of Raptorans, is Tuilviel Glithien, the Queen of Air and Night, very similar sounding to the Queen of Air and Darkness. And in 4E, many Avariel wrshipped Auril, who was revealed/retconnec as the Queen of Air and Darkness...
Auril also fought against Aerdrie Faenya in the Lolth vs Corellon war (since 2e actually), and Auril was also said to be exiled from Arborea/Arvandor after that(also actually from 2e).
Maybe Avariel originally worshipped both Auril and Aerdrie?
And Raptorrans are descended from Aearee modified Avariel worshippers of Auril? Maybe even the Aerdrie worshipping majority of Avariel gave the Auril worshipping minority for experimentation of Aearee. Or the Auril worshipping Avariel agreed themselves to be modified into Raptorrans?

[EDIT]

Also Rocs, Giant Eagles and Giant Owls could also very probably be among the species created/modified by Aearee to fight in their wars.

Edited by - Baltas on 02 Jun 2016 00:15:17
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Wrigley
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Czech Republic
459 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2016 :  00:28:31  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I like where you're going with the cataloguing what might be related to the batrachi and what they created. I think that the idea of a "Serpent Kingdoms" type supplement, but for what the Batrachi created, could prove to be a very interesting thing indeed. I venture that Tako, Krakens, bullywugs, dopplegangers, locathah, sivs, grippli, kopru, Slaad, froghemoths, and Kuo-Toa MAY have all come from the Batrachi civilization.

Similarly, the question of the Aearee civilization would be interesting to see some expounding upon. Especially given that we know that reptilian beings with feathers may have had ties to the Aeree. They also created the wyverns. I'd venture that Couatls may have come from the Aearee, and that Maztica may have held a large Aearee culture. Of course, we all believe that aarakocra and kenku came from the Aearee, but what about various winged reptilian races (besides draconic ones like dragonborn). . Raptorans from races of the wild would also fit. Also, more bestial creatures such as giant owls, giant eagles, rocs, etc.... might they have ties to the Aearee?



In my take of the realms Batrachi are collective name for all those water-based creatures where most known are Batrachi lords from their campaign on land who later became Slaadi and bullywug who venerated Ramenos. More water-dependant batrachi remained undisputed rulers over the seas and remain until this day mostly unknown by humans. Another well known example are Ilithids who were tasked with conquering Astral plane. Their Infinite Empire fell under rebellion of their human slaves that were transformed by their living in astral sea to race now known as Giths. Most terrible creatures spawned by batrachi were Phaerim used originaly as weapon against Fey but also used to fight Sarrukh later on in the same area.

Regarding Aearee I really like that thread by Gray (link in post above) and in my realms their biggest legacy are planar angelic beings and of course all bird-like creatures on Faerun.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2016 :  00:51:30  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

In my take of the realms Batrachi are collective name for all those water-based creatures where most known are Batrachi lords from their campaign on land who later became Slaadi and bullywug who venerated Ramenos. More water-dependant batrachi remained undisputed rulers over the seas and remain until this day mostly unknown by humans. Another well known example are Ilithids who were tasked with conquering Astral plane. Their Infinite Empire fell under rebellion of their human slaves that were transformed by their living in astral sea to race now known as Giths. Most terrible creatures spawned by batrachi were Phaerim used originaly as weapon against Fey but also used to fight Sarrukh later on in the same area.

Regarding Aearee I really like that thread by Gray (link in post above) and in my realms their biggest legacy are planar angelic beings and of course all bird-like creatures on Faerun.


I think that angelic beings are at least partly created by, or connected to Sarrukh. Jazirian is connected to 7 Heavens of Celestia, and portrayed as the opposite of Asmodeus, and Seraphs, highest angels in mythos are flamming serpents.

I guess possibly angels/celestials were a co-creation of good aligned aearee and Coalts(transformed good Sarrukh).

Also, I see you also believe the theory Batrachi are connected to Ilithids.

Edited by - Baltas on 02 Jun 2016 01:01:39
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Wrigley
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Czech Republic
459 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2016 :  18:37:12  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

In my take of the realms Batrachi are collective name for all those water-based creatures where most known are Batrachi lords from their campaign on land who later became Slaadi and bullywug who venerated Ramenos. More water-dependant batrachi remained undisputed rulers over the seas and remain until this day mostly unknown by humans. Another well known example are Ilithids who were tasked with conquering Astral plane. Their Infinite Empire fell under rebellion of their human slaves that were transformed by their living in astral sea to race now known as Giths. Most terrible creatures spawned by batrachi were Phaerim used originaly as weapon against Fey but also used to fight Sarrukh later on in the same area.

Regarding Aearee I really like that thread by Gray (link in post above) and in my realms their biggest legacy are planar angelic beings and of course all bird-like creatures on Faerun.


I think that angelic beings are at least partly created by, or connected to Sarrukh. Jazirian is connected to 7 Heavens of Celestia, and portrayed as the opposite of Asmodeus, and Seraphs, highest angels in mythos are flamming serpents.

I guess possibly angels/celestials were a co-creation of good aligned aearee and Coalts(transformed good Sarrukh).

Also, I see you also believe the theory Batrachi are connected to Ilithids.



It seems to me like we are highjacking this thread a little :-)

Ilithids are batrachi in my book.
Jazirian is former Aearee god who moved to sarrukh pantheon, mated with Shekinester and is father of Parrafaire (idea based on Monster Mythology p.97).
Actualy I have based all four creator races as planars that settled Faerun. Batrachi=Abyss, Sarrukh=Baator (no Nine hells at that time), Aearee=Celestia, Fey=Beastlands/Arborea
Batrachi are remembered as Obyriths in Abyss and some Sarrukh gods still rule in Nine Hells...
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Baltas
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Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2016 :  19:26:44  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

It seems to me like we are highjacking this thread a little :-)

Ilithids are batrachi in my book.
Jazirian is former Aearee god who moved to sarrukh pantheon, mated with Shekinester and is father of Parrafaire (idea based on Monster Mythology p.97).
Actualy I have based all four creator races as planars that settled Faerun. Batrachi=Abyss, Sarrukh=Baator (no Nine hells at that time), Aearee=Celestia, Fey=Beastlands/Arborea
Batrachi are remembered as Obyriths in Abyss and some Sarrukh gods still rule in Nine Hells...



Hmm, has sense with Jazirian, seeing he remade Sarrukh as more avian(ie into Coalts - feathered serpents).

Although the some of the lore Ramenos says also is another aspect of the World Serpent...a possibility is due to Sarrukh influence on civilisations(and possibly Devil propaganda), like Netheril the first Proto-Deity, is just, in a biased view, named "the World Serpent", the name Sarrukh gave to it.

Shekinester was said to fight and devour Ssharstrune - her sibling(as a fellow aspect of the World Serpent). Ssharstrune sounds like a combination of Shar and Selune, rendered serpentine. But Ssharstrune, being connected to entropy.
for the Exact details, from Serpent Kingdoms:
quote:

Of all the emergent aspects of the Great Scaled One, two deities in particular attracted the worship of most nagas: Ssharstrune and Shekinester. The former embodied the principles of curiosity, destruction, and possessiveness that had precipitated the World Serpent’s fragmentation. The latter, known as the Naga Queen, became the keeper of the knowledge and wisdom originally held by the World Serpent, preserved within the eternal flame that she guarded.

After the fall of Mhairshaulk, both Ssharstrune and Jazirian, another fragment of the World Serpent, began to court Shekinester. The Naga Queen eventually chose Jazirian and became pregnant by him. Enraged by this decision, Ssharstrune attacked Shekinester, and she was forced to swallow him. In so doing, the Naga Queen took into herself the same destructive element that had fragmented the World Serpent in the first place. As a result, she acquired five guises: the Acquirer, the Empowerer, the Seeker, the Weaver, and the Preserver. This event was accompanied by a fivefold division in the naga race, forming the five major subraces now known as dark nagas, guardian nagas, iridescent nagas, spirit nagas, and water nagas.

Upon giving birth to Parrafaire, the Naga Prince, Shekinester expelled Ssharstrune’s remains and instructed her offspring to hide away the destructive force that the corpse embodied forever, so that her five-fold aspect could not actually divide her into five separate goddesses. Parrafaire complied with her wishes, and now both he and his mother are venerated as guardians of the naga race.


This all resembles the History of the Sisters of Light and Darkness, with Shekinester having a paralel role to Selune, Ssharstrune to Shar. Selune, similary to Shekinester, is a multi aspected deity(although in the tripple goddess guise, not Shekinester's five-fold one).

Again, there are some differences, as Ssharstrune is viewed as male, using the pronoun "he", but it's possible Sarrukh has split view on Ssharstrune's sex, like of Jazirian. And again, this an argubly biased, Sarrukh and scalyfolk version.

Also, pretty brilliant idea with the split of the 4 corners of the Great Wheel between the 4 Creator Races.

Edited by - Baltas on 02 Jun 2016 19:57:30
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Wrigley
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Czech Republic
459 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2016 :  16:04:03  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I haven't got my head around this one yet. I have seen some theories about Ssharstrune and Shekinester at these halls but to me they are still only minor gods from old pantheon. Those information we have are full of alegories and myths so you have to delve deep to realy get to unlock the information within. If you suppose that they might also be entirely different dieties in guise than that pool is realy deep...
Each time I delve there i find more information about entirely different subject than about what I was looking for. Last time it was about Imaskari while I was looking about Netheril :-)

To derail this a little back to original direction. Does anybody have more clear picture about how might batrachi land empire look like in it's haydays? I can see they had a lot of slaves (mainly humans) and lot of minions (bullywugs, sivs, dopplegangers, ...) who did their work (talking about batrachi lords). They should want to live in humid/wet and warm climate so marches and swamps that were in place of later Sea of Fallen stars should do fine. We know nothing about their culture and architecture except some altars of Ramenos and obelisks in seas.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2016 :  20:49:50  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

I haven't got my head around this one yet. I have seen some theories about Ssharstrune and Shekinester at these halls but to me they are still only minor gods from old pantheon. Those information we have are full of alegories and myths so you have to delve deep to realy get to unlock the information within. If you suppose that they might also be entirely different dieties in guise than that pool is realy deep...
Each time I delve there i find more information about entirely different subject than about what I was looking for. Last time it was about Imaskari while I was looking about Netheril :-)

To derail this a little back to original direction. Does anybody have more clear picture about how might batrachi land empire look like in it's haydays? I can see they had a lot of slaves (mainly humans) and lot of minions (bullywugs, sivs, dopplegangers, ...) who did their work (talking about batrachi lords). They should want to live in humid/wet and warm climate so marches and swamps that were in place of later Sea of Fallen stars should do fine. We know nothing about their culture and architecture except some altars of Ramenos and obelisks in seas.



I learned a lot things this way on Candlekeep Forums

About architecture, Xxiphu may be connected to Batrachi, or even was originally a Batrachi city, as Batrachi summoned the first Aboleths.

Another candidate is Ascarle, as the original Savage Frontier book, suggested it was inhabited by either Sea Elves or Fish People. Although at least later, the city was taken over by Sea Elves, who could vastly change it's architecture.
It fit's at least partially as Ascarle is made of Crystal and Coral, and Brian R. James wrtote From their crystalline cities the wise tako ruled over tribes of kuo-toa, locathah, and other species of aquatic batrachi.

So I guess it's possible Batrachi created Crystaline Cities, but any info we have, are about undersea cities, so it's possible only undersea cities were made out of crystal.

Edited by - Baltas on 03 Jun 2016 20:51:24
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe

USA
475 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2016 :  08:16:32  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's not hard to make the Kuo-toa as your Lovecraftian Deep Ones in any D&D campaign. They already have the physical resemblance.

Plus the canonical fact that Kuo-toan's "insane mentality" allows them to create their own crazy gods…. that fits perfectly with the worship of Great Old Ones, deities which have a prediliction for (inflicting) insanity to begin with.

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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1728 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2018 :  18:50:46  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Since it's apparently the necromancy season...
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Auril also fought against Aerdrie Faenya in the Lolth vs Corellon war (since 2e actually), and Auril was also said to be exiled from Arborea/Arvandor after that(also actually from 2e).

Where this comes from? Source?
Seeing how neither Aerdrie Faenya nor anyone of the Seldarine is listed in her foes.
The Seldarine don't like her, but they don't like her along with the rest of Gods of Fury who keep messing up their lawns.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

Edited by - TBeholder on 11 Oct 2018 18:51:37
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7439 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2018 :  20:01:00  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

Since it's apparently the necromancy season...
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Auril also fought against Aerdrie Faenya in the Lolth vs Corellon war (since 2e actually), and Auril was also said to be exiled from Arborea/Arvandor after that(also actually from 2e).

Where this comes from? Source?
Seeing how neither Aerdrie Faenya nor anyone of the Seldarine is listed in her foes.
The Seldarine don't like her, but they don't like her along with the rest of Gods of Fury who keep messing up their lawns.



I wouldn't be able to provide the source (not the original poster either), but I know in 4e they were hinting at Auril as an Archfey named Aurilandur, with ties to frost sprites. I'd be interested in the above stuff related to the raptoran goddess... Tuilviel Glithien, the Queen of Air and Night... and the Queen of Air and Darkness being Auril... and possibly tying that with the Raven Queen. However, as I look, Tuilviel Glithien is listed as CG . The whole idea that there was some massive splitting of "SOMETHING" related to the raven queen into multiple entitities might explain this away.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7439 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2018 :  20:17:18  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
hmmm, and interestingly, we know that the Raven Queen worked against Lolth from I think Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes or a dragon article... and so did this raptoran goddess... from races of the wild.... and it sounds like this being is the reason for Lolth ending up in the abyss.


In the days when the mortal races were young, Tuilviel Glithien kept to herself, rarely spending any time with the other gods and gliding through the night skies alone. Her solitary nature drew the attention of Lolth, who claimed the night and resented Tuilviel’s infl uence over it. Lolth decided to trap the winged huntress and slay her.

After turning herself into a fearsome boar, Lolth let Tuilviel spot her from above and then began to run. The Queen of Air and Night had never before encountered a boar that could run so fast or so far. On and on she flew in pursuit of the beast, striving to plunge her foot spikes into its fl esh at every
opportunity. Still the boar ran, diving into the underbrush when Tuilviel flew low and emerging again at a dead run. The boar’s hooves tore deep ruts into the earth as it ran, keeping ahead of its winged pursuer.

At last, the boar ran into a canyon whose mouth was overgrown with brambles. Thinking she had the boar cornered, Tuilviel dove into the canyon, only to find that it had no exit and the brambles held her fast. Still in boar form, Lolth attacked Tuilviel. Realizing that she was outmatched on the ground, the Queen of Air and
Night ripped herself free of the brambles and took to the sky. From above, she tore at the remaining brambles, peeling away the boar’s defensive shield. Finally, she seized the boar and flew away with him. The boar struggled mightily, but Tuilviel held fast. Droplets of blood from the many wounds she had already sustained rained down to the earth, forming the first raptorans where they struck.

On and on she flew, and finally she reached a great crevasse that led directly to the realms below the earth. After dropping the boar into this pit, Tuilviel settled onto a nearby tree to rest. The night was hers, and never again would Lolth succeed in reclaiming it. Ever since that day, the raptorans have shared a hatred of Lolth with all elves who are not drow.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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BadLuckBugbear
Seeker

USA
34 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2018 :  05:52:27  Show Profile Send BadLuckBugbear a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How important is it that the 'Deep Ones' live under the ocean?

If wetlands with sunken cities and half-submerged dungeons work, then I'd go with bullywugs.
IIRC, the Fiend Folio notes rumors about bullywug-human hybrids.
And if you bring in Ramenos from Monster Mythology, you have a malevolent sleeping god.


I see that both the 'wugs and Ramenos were mentioned upthread.

What else?

Maybe the villagers are half-elves and humans of elvish descent.
The 'Deep Ones' are Sahuagin. The hybrids are an amphibious variety of malenti.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Malenti

Ewan Cummins

Edited by - BadLuckBugbear on 14 Oct 2018 05:59:28
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BadLuckBugbear
Seeker

USA
34 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2018 :  06:02:13  Show Profile Send BadLuckBugbear a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Demons and fiends are often malformed, terrifying, and highly variable in appearance.

I'm not personally familiar with Lovecraft's Shadow over Innsmouth, but results from a quick google image search look to me more like half-preserved half-decayed worm-ridden undead than like tentacle-faced aquatic grotesqueries. Zombies, ghasts, ghouls, mummies, or perhaps some little liches might be suitable substitutions - especially if they are variant forms derived from decidedly non-human creatures.






Lacedons could be fun.

Cultists deemed worthy will 'live forever under the waves' after the undead convert them. The period of ghoul fever resembles a land-dwelling hybrid phase.
The unworthy simply get om nom nomed.

NOTE:

This thread is made of fun and win. I'm not responding to all the posts I'd like to respond to because then I'd be quoting all of you guys in a big fat wall o' text.



Ewan Cummins

Edited by - BadLuckBugbear on 14 Oct 2018 06:05:09
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