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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7058 Posts

Posted - 12 Jan 2020 :  05:28:51  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It seems to me that illusionists focus on deception. Not being where you think they are, being where you think they aren't. Discinclined to melee (let alone melee vs opponents twice their size), more inclined to impose magical barriers which prevent melee.

Items which fool the senses and make gnomes harder to target seem more sensible (to me) than bracers and armors and defenses. An illusionist doesn't really need raw AC if he's good enough at his craft.

Depends much on which game rules/edition you play. Illusions have a lot of leeway in earlier editions, later editions increasingly confine illusions to mechanical tables and stat blocks.
And depends just as much on the DM/author. Some are endlessly awed by good illusions, others endlessly hold them down with low regard.

[/Ayrik]
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1185 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2020 :  03:03:53  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It doesn't help that a huge portion of the school's spells are countered by true seeing.

Necromancy arguably has the same problem, but Thanatopic Spell exists.
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TheIriaeban
Learned Scribe

USA
222 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2020 :  18:11:55  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yep, that is why I came up with the Hoodwink spell to counter True Seeing. Although, to level the playing field, you could give illusions detection resistance to true seeing similar to what was suggested for rogues in the Complete Thief's Handbook.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3948 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2020 :  20:17:39  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I played an Illusionist for decades...and True Seeing is not really a problem.

True Seeing is good against Illusion, but Phantasms are quasi-real and still hurt you even if you know what they are. Aside from that, if someone has True Seeing, it can be countered with Dispel Magic...and not many individuals have multiple True Seeing spells memorized.

After 1st and 2nd Edition AD&D, Illusions took quite a beating as far as what they could do...and so it did indeed become harder to use Illusion for what was possible before.

The trade off after 1e was that Illusionists had access to spells they hadn't had before; so their power actually increased over all as they could then use 8th and 9th level spells.

Playing 1e as long as I did, Dalor Darden was a very good Illusionist; but honestly he was much better off when I went from only being an Illusionist to being a Magic-User as well.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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TheIriaeban
Learned Scribe

USA
222 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2020 :  16:54:51  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yep, phantasms are commonly used by our illusionist for that exact same reason. Plus, since they aren't alive, spells that affect living creatures won't affect them like it would for a summon monster spell.

We didn't have any illusionists while we were playing 1e so the only experience I have seen in play is using the 2e rules.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1011 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2020 :  18:38:29  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

I played an Illusionist for decades...and True Seeing is not really a problem.

True Seeing is good against Illusion, but Phantasms are quasi-real and still hurt you even if you know what they are. Aside from that, if someone has True Seeing, it can be countered with Dispel Magic...and not many individuals have multiple True Seeing spells memorized.

After 1st and 2nd Edition AD&D, Illusions took quite a beating as far as what they could do...and so it did indeed become harder to use Illusion for what was possible before.

The trade off after 1e was that Illusionists had access to spells they hadn't had before; so their power actually increased over all as they could then use 8th and 9th level spells.

Playing 1e as long as I did, Dalor Darden was a very good Illusionist; but honestly he was much better off when I went from only being an Illusionist to being a Magic-User as well.



Yes!! Quasi-real indeed. That's why I love Illusion and Shadow based Illusion spells. They know its fake but it still damages them in some way. If you're a master Illusionist, with Prestige classes that focus on shadow conjuration and evocation, then you can bring your Phantasms to 99% believability, high damage, etc... If a Master Illusionist was also a Mage-Killer, as per the Mage Killer PrC in 3.5, then you have yourself a Master Assassin... add a Shadow based PrC (there are many in 3.5) and you have an illusionist that is 99% shadow effective, on top of being a mage-killer, specialized at slaying other arcane casters.

I love it!

CEV

Edited by - Copper Elven Vampire on 26 Jan 2020 18:40:48
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Delnyn
Learned Scribe

USA
311 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2020 :  15:22:38  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master illusionists would be outstanding training simulators for mercenary companies and armies. A cadet can feel the danger of fighting Klauth and getting munched to bloody pulp without the actual violence.
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1011 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2020 :  06:31:23  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Master illusionists would be outstanding training simulators for mercenary companies and armies. A cadet can feel the danger of fighting Klauth and getting munched to bloody pulp without the actual violence.



master of Baravar indeed.
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Delnyn
Learned Scribe

USA
311 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2020 :  10:54:35  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Master illusionists would be outstanding training simulators for mercenary companies and armies. A cadet can feel the danger of fighting Klauth and getting munched to bloody pulp without the actual violence.



master of Baravar indeed.


Baravar can get downright nasty if you tick him off. He is every bit as serious as Gaerdal Ironhand when it comes to protecting gnomes. The only difference is Baravar is more flexible with his tactics.
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1011 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2020 :  15:46:29  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Master illusionists would be outstanding training simulators for mercenary companies and armies. A cadet can feel the danger of fighting Klauth and getting munched to bloody pulp without the actual violence.



master of Baravar indeed.


Baravar can get downright nasty if you tick him off. He is every bit as serious as Gaerdal Ironhand when it comes to protecting gnomes. The only difference is Baravar is more flexible with his tactics.



Baravar is also more adept at illusions and trickery than even Garl Glittergold. (who is awesome unto himself.)

He seems to me to be more protective of gnomish secrets and hidden things. One of my favorite demi-human deities indeed. I imagine a "Shadowcloak" of Baravar to be the exemplar figure of protecting the hidden secrets of gnome ancestry.

It is said in Faerun that Gnomes first learned magic from the elves after they won freedom from the ancient Netherese. They Learned Illusion and the sub-school of Shadow first and mastered it beyond the expectations of the elves. I believe that is canon.
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Delnyn
Learned Scribe

USA
311 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2020 :  22:46:57  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Baravar is also more adept at illusions and trickery than even Garl Glittergold. (who is awesome unto himself.)

He seems to me to be more protective of gnomish secrets and hidden things. One of my favorite demi-human deities indeed. I imagine a "Shadowcloak" of Baravar to be the exemplar figure of protecting the hidden secrets of gnome ancestry.

It is said in Faerun that Gnomes first learned magic from the elves after they won freedom from the ancient Netherese. They Learned Illusion and the sub-school of Shadow first and mastered it beyond the expectations of the elves. I believe that is canon.



Rilmohx Sha-Quessir is the gnome who browsed the Nether Scrolls and passed the knowledge of illusions to gnomes.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1185 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2020 :  04:06:00  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
She doomed the entire gnomish magical profession. Truly, the gnome who chose Illusion as his prohibited school must be the pimply nerd equivalent to the illusionist's jerk jock.
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1011 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2020 :  17:18:53  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

She doomed the entire gnomish magical profession. Truly, the gnome who chose Illusion as his prohibited school must be the pimply nerd equivalent to the illusionist's jerk jock.



lol
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2012 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2020 :  16:33:38  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

I played an Illusionist for decades...and True Seeing is not really a problem.

True Seeing is good against Illusion, but Phantasms are quasi-real and still hurt you even if you know what they are.

Or "still scary" (in case of phantasmal killer).
Hmm. How would phantasmal mists (from Dragon) work vs. true seeing?
If it still creates audio and tactile hallucination of critters, but now cannot show plain illusory enemies, this may turn nuisance into Ravenloft grade spookiness. "You hear something slithers by behind you and bumps your elbow. You turn, but see only more of this strange fog swirling away. You feel something bites your ankle."

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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TheIriaeban
Learned Scribe

USA
222 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2020 :  23:33:19  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Master illusionists would be outstanding training simulators for mercenary companies and armies. A cadet can feel the danger of fighting Klauth and getting munched to bloody pulp without the actual violence.



There is a fighter in my campaign that did exactly that when he retired and starting training others. The illusionist involved is actually an illusionist/thief and she provides the same service to the local thieves guild (that is a long tale in and of itself).

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1011 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2020 :  15:15:23  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Master illusionists would be outstanding training simulators for mercenary companies and armies. A cadet can feel the danger of fighting Klauth and getting munched to bloody pulp without the actual violence.



There is a fighter in my campaign that did exactly that when he retired and starting training others. The illusionist involved is actually an illusionist/thief and she provides the same service to the local thieves guild (that is a long tale in and of itself).



Sounds very cool.
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Delnyn
Learned Scribe

USA
311 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2020 :  03:25:06  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

Please list everything you've ever heard From ethnic revolutions to enslavement by the Drow or the Grey Dwarves.

The Gnomes have a wonderful trickster deity. Not Garl, but his better at such things. Is it Baravar Cloakshadow?

Same with the Dwarves... Vergadain right?



The Netherese created spriggans from enslaved rock gnomes. Concerning ethnic revolutions or enslavement by drow or duergar, I would concentrate on svirfneblin. Here my knowledge is scant. My main recollection is the drow of Menzoberranzan trashing Blingdenstone as payback for the deep gnomes helping Mithril Hall at the battle of Keeper's Dale.
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1011 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2020 :  00:17:24  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

Please list everything you've ever heard From ethnic revolutions to enslavement by the Drow or the Grey Dwarves.

The Gnomes have a wonderful trickster deity. Not Garl, but his better at such things. Is it Baravar Cloakshadow?

Same with the Dwarves... Vergadain right?



The Netherese created spriggans from enslaved rock gnomes. Concerning ethnic revolutions or enslavement by drow or duergar, I would concentrate on svirfneblin. Here my knowledge is scant. My main recollection is the drow of Menzoberranzan trashing Blingdenstone as payback for the deep gnomes helping Mithril Hall at the battle of Keeper's Dale.



I doubt a Hoodwinker would be a Deepgnome. It could happen, but very unlikely.
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Delnyn
Learned Scribe

USA
311 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2020 :  06:23:34  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

Please list everything you've ever heard From ethnic revolutions to enslavement by the Drow or the Grey Dwarves.

The Gnomes have a wonderful trickster deity. Not Garl, but his better at such things. Is it Baravar Cloakshadow?

Same with the Dwarves... Vergadain right?



The Netherese created spriggans from enslaved rock gnomes. Concerning ethnic revolutions or enslavement by drow or duergar, I would concentrate on svirfneblin. Here my knowledge is scant. My main recollection is the drow of Menzoberranzan trashing Blingdenstone as payback for the deep gnomes helping Mithril Hall at the battle of Keeper's Dale.



I doubt a Hoodwinker would be a Deepgnome. It could happen, but very unlikely.



I was focusing on the sentence "Please list everything you've ever heard From ethnic revolutions to enslavement by the Drow or the Grey Dwarves." and was not thinking about Hoodwinkers. That said, I agree Hoodwinkers would not be nearly as plentiful among deep gnomes as among surface gnomes.
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1011 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2020 :  02:55:27  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A True Hoodwinker would never even be noticed. Like an assassin you'd never see them coming. A Hoodwinkers own mother couldn't pick out their child. You are anonymous. You are illusion. You are EVERYONE and ANYONE!!
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