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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1845 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2014 :  20:27:35  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, Silver Idea: I like your story.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1000 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2014 :  21:26:54  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The thing that I keep coming back to is that if immortality could be bestowed on another, it should be possible to bestow it on yourself, as well. And if Finder could do that, he wouldn't have needed to have created Flattery.



He did try to keep himself from ageing IIRC and largely succeeded even before he was locked away--but knew he would eventually pass away; I think it was easier to create a golem/clone/simulacrum that didn't age than make yourself immortal.

Now I need to go read Song of the Saurials to see if more details are in there.

Off topic, I wonder how that Priestess who was at both of Finder's trials lived hundreds of years as she wasn't a Chosen or archmage; lifespans in the Realms are so confusing sometimes. You'd think a priestess would not want to prolong their life hundreds of years unnaturally if they could go serve their diety in the afterlife.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32655 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2014 :  21:58:33  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh

Making a construct immortal ("built to last" for a long time at least) is much easier than making yourself immortal.



While this is true, the thing is that Flattery isn't a normal construct. He's not a golem. He needs air and food, he is free-willed, intelligent, and capable of gaining levels. It's not unreasonable to assume that he is capable of procreation, like Alias and her sisters -- they were, after all, built from the same set of blueprints.

None of that is standard construct fare... Flattery and Alias may have been built, but they are demonstrably living beings.

And if immortality can be applied to one living being, it can be applied to another.

I do want to again note that I'm not arguing whether or not Flattery and Alias are immortal; I think the possibility that they are is quite strong. I just don't think there is enough information to definitively say that they are immortal. Until something is printed saying they are, it's an assumption.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 04 Sep 2014 22:05:05
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32655 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2014 :  22:02:51  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

You'd think a priestess would not want to prolong their life hundreds of years unnaturally if they could go serve their diety in the afterlife.



It's possible that the long life was granted by the deity, as either a special boon (to allow completion of a long-termed goal, either personal or divine) or because the deity wanted the priestess to continue serving in the mortal world.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6926 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2014 :  01:42:41  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Its also possible that Flattery was (initially, at least) little more than a magical clone. Perhaps held in stasis, asleep, agelessly incarcerated in some demiplanar storage container like Finder, or otherwise kept inactive since the moment of Flatterys inception until comparatively recently. In short, Flattery may not enjoy any special longevity at all, and might appear younger than Finder simply because Finder aged a few years before Flatterys awakening/activation.

The context of the various Azure Bonds novels suggests that Flattery might be a special creation somewhat similar in nature to Alias and her sister automatons. Alias and Finder basically met because the Finder Stone led them towards each other - perhaps this potent (and modified) artifact was originally, long before Finders imprisonment, meant to find automaton/constructs like Flattery and instead locked onto Alias?

[/Ayrik]
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Silver Idea
Acolyte

7 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2014 :  10:46:27  Show Profile Send Silver Idea a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The tattoos were a control mechanism.




Now that you've mentioned that they're a control mechanism, I really doubt it that Flattery had one of those, otherwise Finder would make him come back immediately, just like Alias's tattoos made her do things she didn't want to do.

quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

Flattery was created to keep Finder's songs precisely preserved long after Finder died of old age or was killed. Presumably this wouldn't have worked well if Flattery died of old age himself, this plus that Flattery didn't appear as old as Finder several hundred years after his creation, leads me to assume that Flattery was created to be ageless/immortal unless killed (say, by slamming into the ground at a high velocity).



My thoughts exactly!!:)

I've always been sure that Alias is immortal because the backcover of my copy of The Song of Saurials starts it's summary with "The Nameless Bard and his immortal creation, Alias of Westgate..." but now I'm not sure that it was stated that clearly in the book itself.
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I wonder if I try Jeff Grubb on his blog or FB page?


Let us know if you do!:)

quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh

It's been a while since I've read the books, and I'm probably reading into it, but being immortal should not be enough for Finder. He wanted instruments (several of them) who would learn his music and play it exactly as he played it. He would have wanted them to play *for* him, so that he could separate himself from the tedium and dirt of dealing with people. Finder wanted to build music... learn all of what existed, distill it to its most perfect expressions, and then improve on those and create new expressions of his own... and send his students out to teach for him.

I don't think Finder wanted immortality as much as he wanted to embody and personify expression. Immortality was a necessity for achieving his goals, rather than being the goal. Arrogance and disdain and lack of empathy (also in their pure forms) were unintentional consequences.


Wow, that's very well put and makes perfect sense! It's very like Finder to want someone else to contact the audience while he can concentrate on creating new masterpieces and get all the praise without having to deal with people. In fact, he was really surprised to find that he needed anyone but himself (in the third book, when he discovers he misses Olive and Alias).

quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh

Also, Silver Idea: I like your story.


Thank you so much!^_^

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Its also possible that Flattery was (initially, at least) little more than a magical clone. Perhaps held in stasis, asleep, agelessly incarcerated in some demiplanar storage container like Finder, or otherwise kept inactive since the moment of Flatterys inception until comparatively recently.



He wasn't kept in an inactive state for long, for he escaped on the 13th day of his life. He did take some time to recover after his battle with Cole, but other than that he must have been pretty busy all those 200 years. (He wasn't built to be an archmage, he taught himself to be one. Finder didn't provide Flattery with any significant knowledge of magic, so after breaking free from the cage, Flattery must have spent years reading books and studying spells.)

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The context of the various Azure Bonds novels suggests that Flattery might be a special creation somewhat similar in nature to Alias and her sister automatons. Alias and Finder basically met because the Finder Stone led them towards each other - perhaps this potent (and modified) artifact was originally, long before Finders imprisonment, meant to find automaton/constructs like Flattery and instead locked onto Alias?



An interesting idea. I think Finder's Stone could be used that way, but it wasn't created for that purpose: the stone already existed as a "find that person" tool when Finder found it and transformed into a storage device for his spells and music. (It is stated very clear in The Song of Saurials).
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6926 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2014 :  04:18:43  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I confess that its been roughly a quarter-century since I read the novels (and played the modules), although I did enjoy them immensely at the time. My teenaged mind, then occupied with many other pressing details, apparently wasnt overly concerned with Flattery. Indeed, I admit that I had always thought of Finder as a bit of a ponce, encountering a second instance of him didnt please me at all, lol.

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32655 Posts

Posted - 06 Aug 2015 :  04:16:59  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Doing a bit of thread necromancy here, because I asked Jeff Grubb about the "Aliai" (as he calls them) the other day.

Specifically, I asked about the immortality thing.

And his answer was that he didn't know. He agreed that it was something that could be argued either way, but he also said that until he has to look at the question in a story, he doesn't know if Alias and her sisters are immortal or not.

So the answer is a definitive "Maybe."

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1257 Posts

Posted - 06 Aug 2015 :  05:29:52  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Doing a bit of thread necromancy here, because I asked Jeff Grubb about the "Aliai" (as he calls them) the other day.

Specifically, I asked about the immortality thing.

And his answer was that he didn't know. He agreed that it was something that could be argued either way, but he also said that until he has to look at the question in a story, he doesn't know if Alias and her sisters are immortal or not.

So the answer is a definitive "Maybe."


That comment made me happy. I just finished painting the Ral Partha Alias mini, and I was wanting to bring her into "present day."
That it's a real possibility in his mind made me grin wickedly. My PC's will cringe soon.

- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus

My Forging the Realms Archives (Google Drive pdfs)
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1930 Posts

Posted - 06 Aug 2015 :  08:11:31  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

While we know that Alias and her sisters are human enough to have kids (because Cat and Giogi have kids), it's not outside the realm of possibility that their constructed nature gives them a long lifespan, or possibly even immortality -- especially since one would expect Finder to want that for his legacy.

To me, it looks like Alias was mostly clone-based. Minus the usual unpleasant effects of "stretched spirit", plus built-in enhancements, but the starting point was the clone.
quote:
We know Flattery was around for a long time; it may or may not have been his spellcraft, but he basically didn't age for over 2 centuries.

There are many options, especially if he had access to his maker's stashes.
But also, Flattery as an early version could have been simulacrum based. Embedding ever-ice suggests this option, at least.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1000 Posts

Posted - 06 Aug 2015 :  13:17:26  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Doing a bit of thread necromancy here, because I asked Jeff Grubb about the "Aliai" (as he calls them) the other day.

Specifically, I asked about the immortality thing.

And his answer was that he didn't know. He agreed that it was something that could be argued either way, but he also said that until he has to look at the question in a story, he doesn't know if Alias and her sisters are immortal or not.

So the answer is a definitive "Maybe."



So how do we get him to write another Alias story?
"Shut up and take my money!"
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1000 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2016 :  16:04:08  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Doing a bit of thread necromancy here, because I asked Jeff Grubb about the "Aliai" (as he calls them) the other day.

Specifically, I asked about the immortality thing.

And his answer was that he didn't know. He agreed that it was something that could be argued either way, but he also said that until he has to look at the question in a story, he doesn't know if Alias and her sisters are immortal or not.

So the answer is a definitive "Maybe."



SoOOOO--I re-read the entirety of Azure Bonds last night and Elminster himself twice calls Alias immortal at the end of the book when speaking to Finder after messing up his blessed crossbow bolt shot on Phalse.

I think Alias is for sure ageless based on what Elminster says there "You made her to be your immortal vessel" I think is the exact quote. This plus Flattery not ageing (and using the same formula for Alias) to me gives it a no brainer.

Side bar - I realize now that Phalse should be still alive; he died in the Citadel of White Exile, but his plane of existance was accessed through a portal. Since he was Moander's rival and some sort of Daemon, his true form would need to be killed on his home plane.

Would be neat to see Phalse come back to the Realms as an antagonist with his creations! if only...

Edited by - Seravin on 20 Apr 2016 16:04:44
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1930 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2016 :  10:37:23  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin


I think Alias is for sure ageless based on what Elminster says there "You made her to be your immortal vessel" I think is the exact quote. This plus Flattery not ageing (and using the same formula for Alias) to me gives it a no brainer.

Assuming it's "the same formula". Assuming Flattery was immortal on his own.
Flattery may be simulacrum-based or something, while Alias is clone-based.
Either way, Moander was among the team tinkering with Alias.
She may be kind of unwilling proxy or living power key (the latter would also mean she's a possible choice of spell component, should anyone for some reason want to resuscitate the old compost pile).
quote:
Side bar - I realize now that Phalse should be still alive; he died in the Citadel of White Exile, but his plane of existance was accessed through a portal. Since he was Moander's rival and some sort of Daemon, his true form would need to be killed on his home plane.

Before the last 3 or 4 generations of retcons, IIRC the lore was that the fiends "slain" away from home are merely banished if while summoned, but usually die "for realsies" if they simply walked in. Which is why they bother to promote summoning (and then spend a lot of efforts to weaken or subvert the controls built into such spells), rather than simply rush the portals and gate in some more: it's risk-free, and direct approach isn't.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1000 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2016 :  01:19:04  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the rule was always they had to be killed on their "home" plane, it didn't matter how they got to another plane that I remember. As for Alias, Elminster says two lines about her being immortal at the end of Azure Bonds to Finder, so I'm going to take that to heart :)
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redking
Seeker

61 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2020 :  06:56:00  Show Profile Send redking a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The thing that I keep coming back to is that if immortality could be bestowed on another, it should be possible to bestow it on yourself, as well. And if Finder could do that, he wouldn't have needed to have created Flattery.


Designing something from the ground up to have a trait is not the same as changing yourself. We are discovering this in the field of genetic engineering, where it is much easier to make changes to an embryo than a fully grown human being.

The Alias vessels (of which Flattery is the prototype) are only constructs in the sense that they were created deliberately. A more concise term might be that they are products of the most advanced biollurgy (or biomancy or whatever you want to call it) in the Realms, or perhaps anywhere even the planes. I am sure that Finder would have loved to transmute his own body into an Alias vessel, but alas, its not possible.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1000 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2020 :  08:17:23  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, Flattery is literally a Finder duplicate that would be the closest he could get to doing it to his own body; just like Alias and her sisters are for Cassanna's body. But the mind and soul are their own.
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