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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

2395 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2017 :  23:56:13  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PaulSKemp

Thanks for sharing, ec. I will join you in guarded optimism.



Welcome. There's room by the fire, ale in that keg.

Come to think of it, "Guarded Optimism" wouldn't be a bad name for a fantasy tavern.

Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 10 Oct 2017 23:57:19
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Taleras
Seeker

75 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2017 :  01:45:25  Show Profile Send Taleras a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's hoping you write another Realms novel starting in said tavern!
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

2395 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2017 :  13:05:55  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Taleras

Here's hoping you write another Realms novel starting in said tavern!




A lot of people take issue with stories that start out in taverns. I could work Guarded Optimism into the story later, though.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2017 :  14:29:52  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham

But back to the main topic of this thread. If you haven't watched this YouTube interview with Nathan Stewart, it's well worth a listen. If you're only interested in the future of Realms fiction, and not game products, skip to minute 56 for his comments. I am guardedly optimistic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P252_IFLN9E



Hmmm, hopefully good news. I couldn't listen to it all, since I'm at work (granted remote, but still "at work"), so thanks for the heads up on the minute to go to.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2017 :  14:57:51  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am just too pesimistic. I fear the awesome news will be that DMs Guild will allow lore products and novels instead of just adventures and rules or something equally terrible
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Taleras
Seeker

75 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2017 :  18:14:07  Show Profile Send Taleras a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham

quote:
Originally posted by Taleras

Here's hoping you write another Realms novel starting in said tavern!




A lot of people take issue with stories that start out in taverns. I could work Guarded Optimism into the story later, though.



It's either in a tavern or not in a tavern, right? Might as well start in one!
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3563 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2017 :  21:06:25  Show Profile Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham

quote:
Originally posted by Taleras

Here's hoping you write another Realms novel starting in said tavern!




A lot of people take issue with stories that start out in taverns. I could work Guarded Optimism into the story later, though.



Danilo, Arilyn and Bronwyn in a tavern.....

There's a misunderstanding.

What could be a better start for a tale of the realms?

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 12 Oct 2017 :  03:51:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham

quote:
Originally posted by Taleras

Here's hoping you write another Realms novel starting in said tavern!




A lot of people take issue with stories that start out in taverns. I could work Guarded Optimism into the story later, though.



Danilo, Arilyn and Bronwyn in a tavern.....

There's a misunderstanding.

What could be a better start for a tale of the realms?



Adding Matteo and Tzigone to the group.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3563 Posts

Posted - 12 Oct 2017 :  21:35:24  Show Profile Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham

quote:
Originally posted by Taleras

Here's hoping you write another Realms novel starting in said tavern!




A lot of people take issue with stories that start out in taverns. I could work Guarded Optimism into the story later, though.



Danilo, Arilyn and Bronwyn in a tavern.....

There's a misunderstanding.

What could be a better start for a tale of the realms?



Adding Matteo and Tzigone to the group.



Ohhhh Halruaa.....thanks for opening that wound again

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 12 Oct 2017 :  22:45:20  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A novel about Halruaa would still be possible even in the current era, given that it's back in place.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

2395 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2017 :  02:37:22  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

A novel about Halruaa would still be possible even in the current era, given that it's back in place.



One thing such a novel might do is explore how people rebuild after a catastrophic event. I don't know exactly when Halruaa returned--was it the full 100 years?--but another aspect to a current-day Halruaa story would be that descendants of survivers would have lived elsewhere for 3 or 4 generations. Halruaa would no longer be home. Whatever is built there is likely to be very different from the culture that was destroyed. On the one hand, that's rather sad, but on the other, it's an interesting opportunity for world-building.
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2017 :  18:20:27  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
WotC's latest statement about novels: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?597471-The-State-of-D-amp-D-Products-Psionics-Settings-amp-More&p=7272865&viewfull=1#post7272865

Relevant part: "On Forgotten Realms novels: They feel the novel business is very tricky, and they are a game company. They're not necessarily good at novels business. They don't have a good plan for novels, and they do not have a novel publishing expert on their team right now. It's not something they say they will never do again, it's just not their focus this year. They would consider a partnership, but they're not looking for it."
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2017 :  18:34:42  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For some reason, i think RLB might be better suited for 'new Halruaa' (it should be grittier, with 'darker' magical traditons now).

I'd like to see Elaine take on the Moonshaes, post-4e. Its close enough to the Swordcoast for her to 'dip' into some of her previous characters (and its got a 'returned' kingdom of eladrin, which Caulnober may be very interested in). Its time to bring the Moonshaes even more into the fold - after two novels series, it still feels too much like a sub-setting. I think she'd be ideal to give it that Mists of Avalon vibe it really needs.

Lets see, what would be a good place to put Paul? The Warlock Knights of Vaasa! That would be sweet. Maybe even a tie-in anthology about 'People & Primordials'. I know Rich Baker created that place, but I prefer him to be used as a 'reimagining' Creative elsewhere - maybe hand him the old Empires and say, "Do something with this mess". On the other hand, we already have Erin thereabouts. He could always take the Lands of Intrigue - another area that could use some 'freshening up'.

I'm thinking novels could even be used as semi-sourcebooks in this regard, or even do something entirely new (or perhaps not so new), like how the old Player's Guide to Faerūn was done. A 'story' disguised as a sourcebook (or is it the other way around?)

As for RAS... Drizzit novels. Thousands of them. Until the end of time. Until long after the sun has gone supernova and Urth is but a distant memory. I'm fairly certain Hasbro has purchased the rights to his corpse, so they can build a machine that will keep his hand moving and writing them for all eternity.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Nov 2017 18:38:29
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Caolin
Senior Scribe

768 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2017 :  18:44:20  Show Profile Send Caolin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

WotC's latest statement about novels: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?597471-The-State-of-D-amp-D-Products-Psionics-Settings-amp-More&p=7272865&viewfull=1#post7272865

Relevant part: "On Forgotten Realms novels: They feel the novel business is very tricky, and they are a game company. They're not necessarily good at novels business. They don't have a good plan for novels, and they do not have a novel publishing expert on their team right now. It's not something they say they will never do again, it's just not their focus this year. They would consider a partnership, but they're not looking for it."



Typical. Their whole MMO is to not outright alienate the fans who care about novels by saying "We have some exciting news coming up". But in reality they act like this isn't a priority at all.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2017 :  03:39:42  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I realize they are a gaming company, but it seems apparent that many want the novels, and also plenty of game settings have novels (Warhammer, Magic: the Gathering, Halo, Assassin's Creed, etc)

Sweet water and light laughter
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2017 :  09:02:41  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin

quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

WotC's latest statement about novels: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?597471-The-State-of-D-amp-D-Products-Psionics-Settings-amp-More&p=7272865&viewfull=1#post7272865

Relevant part: "On Forgotten Realms novels: They feel the novel business is very tricky, and they are a game company. They're not necessarily good at novels business. They don't have a good plan for novels, and they do not have a novel publishing expert on their team right now. It's not something they say they will never do again, it's just not their focus this year. They would consider a partnership, but they're not looking for it."



Typical. Their whole MMO is to not outright alienate the fans who care about novels by saying "We have some exciting news coming up". But in reality they act like this isn't a priority at all.



They seem to be all about PR stunts when it comes to story and lore. They did the same with the Sundering and 5e Realms. They made so many announcements, yet what we got is a half-assed, handwavy reboot.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Suzerain
Acolyte

11 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2017 :  02:30:27  Show Profile  Visit Suzerain's Homepage Send Suzerain a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
They seem to be all about PR stunts when it comes to story and lore. They did the same with the Sundering and 5e Realms. They made so many announcements, yet what we got is a half-assed, handwavy reboot.



I take issue with this statement. The Sundering in particular was a well-intentioned endeavor to bring the Realms we all love back in its full glory. It sold well if I recall. My local bookstore told me it was like Black Friday when a new Sundering came out. If you listen to R.A. Salvatore's account, the Spellplague was out of the authors' hands, it was forced upon them. The Sundering was an attempt--and a good one--to restore what had been lost. I recall checking in here when the Spellplague happened wondering what Wizards was thinking at the time. They had just killed off Mystra in an innocuous footnote. No epic trilogy or even a one-shot depicting what happened, anything that might have helped the fans to understand the changes that were being implemented nor any indication that the changes were only temporary. 2E had the Avatar Trilogy. Here, the fans deserved better. And the novelists teamed together and gave us the Sundering, what may well be the last great epic Realms-shaking event. If that was the end then all we can be is grateful that the authors tried their best to bring it back. To restore it.

Edited by - Suzerain on 21 Nov 2017 03:27:46
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Swordsage
Learned Scribe

149 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2017 :  06:47:48  Show Profile  Visit Swordsage's Homepage Send Swordsage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Spellplague was indeed forced on the authors, but so was the Sundering. It's just that with the latter Realms-Shaking Event (TM) they decided to do a novel series to go with it. I can understand Salvatore's happiness with that as it gave him an opportunity to bring his stable of characters into the next edition of the Forgotten Realms. He didn't talk about the Sundering much, but that's not what his intention was with that novel. I enjoyed the novel btw.

The Swordsage

Edited by - Swordsage on 21 Nov 2017 06:48:27
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2017 :  13:17:27  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Suzerain

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
They seem to be all about PR stunts when it comes to story and lore. They did the same with the Sundering and 5e Realms. They made so many announcements, yet what we got is a half-assed, handwavy reboot.



I take issue with this statement. The Sundering in particular was a well-intentioned endeavor to bring the Realms we all love back in its full glory. It sold well if I recall. My local bookstore told me it was like Black Friday when a new Sundering came out. If you listen to R.A. Salvatore's account, the Spellplague was out of the authors' hands, it was forced upon them. The Sundering was an attempt--and a good one--to restore what had been lost. I recall checking in here when the Spellplague happened wondering what Wizards was thinking at the time. They had just killed off Mystra in an innocuous footnote. No epic trilogy or even a one-shot depicting what happened, anything that might have helped the fans to understand the changes that were being implemented nor any indication that the changes were only temporary. 2E had the Avatar Trilogy. Here, the fans deserved better. And the novelists teamed together and gave us the Sundering, what may well be the last great epic Realms-shaking event. If that was the end then all we can be is grateful that the authors tried their best to bring it back. To restore it.



If you recall, back in 2012 WotC organized some PR stuff to promote the Sundering to FR fans and show their good will. There was that gathering of "the loremasters", which then went nowhere, to discuss the Sundering. Or the hints about Ed being given a much more prominent role when it comes to the fate of the Realms. However, just take a look at the current state of the FR (as a setting, not in-universe), and you'll see that they didn't uphold what they tried to to show.

I appreciate what the Sundering did--I *really* do--but it is as handwavy as the Spellplague was (and I wouldn't call some half-hearted in-universe reboot a good attempt at restoring the Realms). The changes covered in the 6 novels are a really narrow part of the whole event. Since you mention Mystra's "death" being handwaved with 4e, the Sundering did the reverse: so many gods came back (way more than we see in the 6 books), some of whom had even even novels dedicated to their removal, but we know nothing (or little) about the details of their return. In short, the post-Sundering Realms are still a very nebulous place, and on top of that we get no novels.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2017 :  13:59:26  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What I've seen is that new players aren't necessarily drawn to the realms. Many young folk are daunted by the amount of past lore (ZeroMaru seems to be a minority). Honestly, many of us old grognard's are also pounded under by the amount of past lore, because even though we read it.... a lot of times it was lightly read because we had jobs, games, families, building our homes, etc... going on. Its only now, editions later that we've got the time to go back and look through things that were glossed over in previous editions. At the same time, many of us who previously didn't read the 4e lore out of being mad at the game system itself and what the spellplague did, have finally started trying to catch up with what happened during 4e over the last 2 or 3 years. Then throw in that a lot of us feel that we can do a better job of deciding what we would like to see happen after having played for 30+ years, the fact that they've thrown out their IP with the DM's Guild, and I can somewhat understand WotC's decision. That being said, they'll never capture new players with realmslore without books. Stories drive things. Also, I think that actually the time is ripe for them to start capturing both new and old players again, as many old players seem to be interested enough to be sniffing again... and new players are looking to learn more about this world that they've only had small tastes of so far.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Suzerain
Acolyte

11 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2017 :  14:32:52  Show Profile  Visit Suzerain's Homepage Send Suzerain a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Swordsage

The Spellplague was indeed forced on the authors, but so was the Sundering. It's just that with the latter Realms-Shaking Event (TM) they decided to do a novel series to go with it. I can understand Salvatore's happiness with that as it gave him an opportunity to bring his stable of characters into the next edition of the Forgotten Realms. He didn't talk about the Sundering much, but that's not what his intention was with that novel. I enjoyed the novel btw.



Ah, but you see, Fifth Edition was inevitable, and the writers knew it. After the Spellplague and Fourth Edition were planned, R.A. Salvatore and Ed Greenwood planned how they would fix it ahead of time. Here's the interview. Really neat story about how they got back in the driver's seat at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLf1hBUr9M4 (go to about 11:44). I've taken the liberty of transcribing:

quote:
Fourth Edition, it was a shock. And they said "We're advancing the world a hundred years." And half of my main characters were human and I'm sitting here thinking, well, 140 year-old humans don't fight very well. How am I going to do this? And that was a fight, I actually wrote a long letter to Wizards to a couple of the editors up there, the senior editors, and said, "Please don't do this. There are other ways to accomplish what you want." But it's their world. If they want to do that to their sandbox, my choice is I can either keep working and playing in their sandbox or I can go and play in somebody else's sandbox or I can go make one of my own. This time, the biggest thing was, I was sitting at Gen-Con a couple of years ago, and I knew this was coming, because Fifth Edition was coming, and I knew, you know, I knew what they needed to do. And James Wyatt, after I did my seminar, James Wyatt was like "I don't know what we're going to do, we need, you know, so many people, it's gone off the rails in so many ways, and we need to do X, Y and Z," and I started laughing. I said, I know how you're going to do it, and here's how you're going to do it. And I explained it to him, some things I had done. When Ed Greenwood and I walked out of that meeting back in 2006 when we were told about the reboot for Fourth Edition, Ed looked at me, I thought he was going to start crying. I mean, these were his Realms that had been taken away from him, essentially, by this big change. And he said to me, "What are we going to do?" And I said, "We're going to be smarter than them. We're going to think long-term." And I had already started planning, Ed had already started planning, well, all right, when they realize that these are not the Realms that everybody loves, and they need to do something, we started planning back in 2006 how we were going to fix it for them. That was how we looked at it. We were going to fix Ed's Realms. And so I sat there in the room after the seminar at Gen-Con a couple of years ago, and I said, "Ok, James, here's what I'm going to do, and here's, I think, the way other authors should do theirs." And he just looked at me, after about 20 minutes of me explaining it to him in detail and he said, "How did you come up with that?" I said, "It took me a few years, but there it is."... Fourth Edition, people would complain about this or that and I would just hold up my hands and say, "It's got nothing to do with me, you know, you're talking to the wrong person." Fifth Edition, not the game so much, but the things that go on in the Forgotten Realms, if people want to complain to me about what happens, I will take full responsibility, happily, because I was part of it, and I'm very proud.


And:

quote:
This time they did it right. Last time, they kind of gave us, here's what's changing in the world, you're going to love it. And we didn't and we had no say. This time they brought us in and said, this is what we're doing to the game, how would that affect the world? And we're the ones that got to determine that.


So, they knew eventually Spellplague would fly off the rails, and they came up with their own strategy to counter it in the novels when Wizards realized they had made a mistake. Sadly, we may never get to see how the "fix" was going to play out in Realms lore. Maybe there's still a window but it looks like it's over. That said, I think what Salvatore, Greenwood, et. al. did to restore the Realms was heroic.

Edited by - Suzerain on 21 Nov 2017 16:31:55
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Suzerain
Acolyte

11 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2017 :  16:19:59  Show Profile  Visit Suzerain's Homepage Send Suzerain a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
If you recall, back in 2012 WotC organized some PR stuff to promote the Sundering to FR fans and show their good will. There was that gathering of "the loremasters", which then went nowhere, to discuss the Sundering. Or the hints about Ed being given a much more prominent role when it comes to the fate of the Realms. However, just take a look at the current state of the FR (as a setting, not in-universe), and you'll see that they didn't uphold what they tried to to show.



Now that strikes me as a legitimate criticism. Clearly, something changed after the Sundering where Wizards decided not to follow through on the commitment that the Sundering entailed. I don't hold the authors accountable, however. They clearly believed they were restoring the Realms and that going forward things would work more smoothly. Perhaps somebody broke their word. Or maybe the company just ran out of money. Who knows?

I do think the fans deserve an explanation.

If the company does not want to do Realms lore any more, then perhaps they should get an outside company to do it via license. It might mean that the game and the novels part ways in terms of continuity, but that wouldn't be the most horrible thing. Comic books find room for several continuities, reboots, etc. The movie continuities deviate from the books. The Walking Dead's television script deviates from the books.

That said, it seems the authors are committed to their new worlds they are building. That's happy news and sad at the same time. There's only so much time, and what we do with it is precious. As for the Realms, we obviously want more as fans. If there is more eventually perhaps it will mean a new generation of writers comes in and takes over. It will never be the same, of course. Ideally, whatever parting of ways that's occurred could somehow be resolved. It's hard to speculate without knowing more about why the novels were cancelled, and it's hard to imagine that anyone else could ever be at the helm than those who established it.
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