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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 22 Apr 2005 :  11:37:35  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Then how do you account for the reference to Dornal Silverhand visiting Unsible of Tyche and the Luckhouse in Neverwinter in c. 760 DR ("Seven Sisters", p.5-ish)?

I have two possible explanations:

1) Perhaps Tymora continued to answer prayers and grant spells to priests of Tyche for a number of years, decades possibly, after the split. Maybe her and Beshaba both answered to the name of Tyche during the period of adjustment.

2) Maybe Unsible was not aware of the split, perhaps even still believed Tyche was alive, or stubbornly refused to accept Tyche's death, and continued to receive spells by means of the Servant of the Fallen Feat as per Lost Empires of Faerun.



I have to agree with Gray on this one, particularly option 2.

Besides, Myth Drannor was long fallen by then, and if the DC presaged its fall, then it had to have occurred earlier.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Australia
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Posted - 22 Apr 2005 :  15:58:02  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Then how do you account for the reference to Dornal Silverhand visiting Unsible of Tyche and the Luckhouse in Neverwinter in c. 760 DR ("Seven Sisters", p.5-ish)?

I have two possible explanations:

1) Perhaps Tymora continued to answer prayers and grant spells to priests of Tyche for a number of years, decades possibly, after the split. Maybe her and Beshaba both answered to the name of Tyche during the period of adjustment.

2) Maybe Unsible was not aware of the split, perhaps even still believed Tyche was alive, or stubbornly refused to accept Tyche's death, and continued to receive spells by means of the Servant of the Fallen Feat as per Lost Empires of Faerun.

As Wooly stated, I believe OPTION 2 seems more likely.

And as we see for option 1, we must consdier how would the Faithful have passed on after their deaths if both Tymora and Beshaba were answering for the now vacant position of Tyche? It is likely that this would have led to some significant chaos upon the Fugue Plane for a time, with Faithful wandering aimlessly unsure and uncalled to their final domains of rest. To some respect, it was either one or the other.

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Edited by - The Sage on 22 Apr 2005 16:01:34
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Kuje
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USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2005 :  17:00:37  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You want to know something even odder. There is a cleric in the Old Gray box, which is set in 1356ish, who worships Tyche!

Szellim Thunn, 4th level Cleric, Male Human, CG, Tyche, Member of The Hunt adventuring company, Cyclopedia of the Realms.

Now remember this was before that feat ever existed, so how is granting him his spells. :)

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Gray Richardson
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Posted - 22 Apr 2005 :  19:04:34  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The feat/phenomenon has always existed, it's just that the mechanic was not published in a sourcebook up til now.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

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1291 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2005 :  19:12:59  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

[quote]And as we see for option 1, we must consdier how would the Faithful have passed on after their deaths if both Tymora and Beshaba were answering for the now vacant position of Tyche? It is likely that this would have led to some significant chaos upon the Fugue Plane for a time, with Faithful wandering aimlessly unsure and uncalled to their final domains of rest. To some respect, it was either one or the other.

I actually don't see this as problematic. I think Tymora and Beshaba would probably both send representatives to the Fugue Plane to gather Tyche's petitioners. If Tyche was your patron, you would be free game to both Tymora's and Beshaba's reps. It would really have been the luck of the draw as to which side showed up to collect you first. And somehow I think Tyche's petitioners would appreciate that.
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Kuje
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7915 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2005 :  21:11:33  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

The feat/phenomenon has always existed, it's just that the mechanic was not published in a sourcebook up til now.



Wrong! It didn't always exist and it's only been printed in one FR book for 3.5e.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Edited by - Kuje on 22 Apr 2005 21:34:29
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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31591 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2005 :  23:01:41  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31

quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

The feat/phenomenon has always existed, it's just that the mechanic was not published in a sourcebook up til now.



Wrong! It didn't always exist and it's only been printed in one FR book for 3.5e.



I think what Gray is saying is that the Realms has always had those who worshipped fallen powers, but until now, we've not had any way to represent this in the rules.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Posted - 23 Apr 2005 :  07:44:24  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

[quote]And as we see for option 1, we must consdier how would the Faithful have passed on after their deaths if both Tymora and Beshaba were answering for the now vacant position of Tyche? It is likely that this would have led to some significant chaos upon the Fugue Plane for a time, with Faithful wandering aimlessly unsure and uncalled to their final domains of rest. To some respect, it was either one or the other.

I actually don't see this as problematic. I think Tymora and Beshaba would probably both send representatives to the Fugue Plane to gather Tyche's petitioners. If Tyche was your patron, you would be free game to both Tymora's and Beshaba's reps. It would really have been the luck of the draw as to which side showed up to collect you first. And somehow I think Tyche's petitioners would appreciate that.

I suppose that is possible, given the highly unlikely scenario to consider at that point. However, I tend to prefer more... certainty in the afterlife of my Realms. For characters playing in such a historical period, definition would need to form a significant part of their belief in their lives before passing on. And as such, the more inclined (in either one direction or the other) the path of luck took during your lifetime - whether good or ill - would reflect which deity your soul would interest.

But then, perhaps my opinion of this would change, should I ever run a campaign like this.

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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage

Edited by - The Sage on 23 Apr 2005 07:47:05
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2005 :  16:16:20  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think what Gray is saying is that the Realms has always had those who worshipped fallen powers, but until now, we've not had any way to represent this in the rules.



Yes. Yes. But that's not what I'm saying because in 1e no such lore and ore text existed. I wasn't talking specifically about 2e or 3/3.5e. I was just talking about that npc that existed in 1e.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Lawk Xetter
Acolyte

3 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2006 :  17:24:41  Show Profile  Visit Lawk Xetter's Homepage Send Lawk Xetter a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just making sure I have everything perfect....*Has a crush on Tyche*

Tyche and Lathander were lovers. He was her booty-call. He got all uppity, and started the Dawn Cataclysm, (Thus him being the God of "Dawn" and renewal.) His attempt to renew and reform the pantheon in His image. He failed, likely because Tyche thought he was being a borish snob, and gave Him a curse. Then She wandered off.
While walking, Tyche saw a beautiful rose, but it wouldn't be plucked. So She cursed it, and it's stem snapped in two, and She put it in her hair. Where, as a body-part of Moander, It had easy access to Her ear, thus Her brain, and began corrupting Her.
Then Azuth did the divinition thing, and foretold of the evil growing within Her, changing Her, and told His fellow Gods.
When Tyche innocently came to greet Her most trusted friends and godly companions, Selune cravenly blasted Tyche with moon magic, splitting Her body in twain.
Luckily (Heh) Tyche wasn't destroyed, merely divided, into Tymora, who inherited Tyches good nature, and flirtatious, seductiveways; and Beshaba, who gained the fouler nature of Tyche. The curses, and the damn sexy body to go with. They arose from Tyche's husk and the two fought instantly, until the surrounding Gods broke them up, whereupon Beshaba threw a tantrum, and a curse, then poofed.
They split Tyche's powers, and also Her symbol, Tymora taking the silver disk, Beshaba taking the red triangle. The pentacle disapearing with the past, and Beshaba adding some stag horns, (for a more sinister look I suppose.)
Then, much later, Tymora got egotistical, and added Her face to Her symbol, much like Sune, and some four leaf clovers. Dunno when that happened, or why.

So far, any attempts by worshippers to re-combine the Deities, or at least bring peace, has failed.

Do I have everything right? I really like the Gods of Luck, and want to know it all.

Thy tongue is sharp, but my dagger is sharper. Care to wage one against the other?

Edited by - Lawk Xetter on 17 Apr 2006 17:31:48
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe

785 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2006 :  03:24:01  Show Profile  Visit Shadovar's Homepage Send Shadovar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fairly right but quite distinct from the version stated in Tymora's Lucknovel.

But it wasn't stated that Azuth had done an divination to see the corruption festering in Tyche. Selune was instantly aware of the corruption within her friend when her friend returned and yes, lashed out with Silvery light without hesitation that divided Tyche. But it wasn't stated that Tyche's powers division were supervised by the gods. The good part of Tyche that was pure emerged and already possesed power over good fortune while the corrupted version of Tyche already possessed power over evil fortune when she emerged.
As for their symbols, no offical explanation for that.

We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend.
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Shilo99
Seeker

63 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2006 :  07:22:21  Show Profile  Visit Shilo99's Homepage Send Shilo99 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar

Fairly right but quite distinct from the version stated in Tymora's Lucknovel.

But it wasn't stated that Azuth had done an divination to see the corruption festering in Tyche. Selune was instantly aware of the corruption within her friend when her friend returned and yes, lashed out with Silvery light without hesitation that divided Tyche. But it wasn't stated that Tyche's powers division were supervised by the gods. The good part of Tyche that was pure emerged and already possesed power over good fortune while the corrupted version of Tyche already possessed power over evil fortune when she emerged.
As for their symbols, no offical explanation for that.



As to the symbols, I don't know of any official explanation.
When 3e was released, Tymora's symbol changed (with the addition of the clover leaves), and there was some debate on the net at the time as the real-world triteness of this clover symbol, and the very halfling-like portrayal of her visage on her symbol as shown in WotC sources. (Note many symbols became more elaborate upon the release of 3e...)

Also, an interesting non-(FR)canon addition to the story is Agathos Daimon, who was Tyche's mate in Greek mythology (Agatha Tyche was originally a Greek goddess, called Fortuna by the Romans, who governed the fortune and prosperity of a city, its destiny).

The 2e Planescape.net/Tieflings Exultation site includes a write-up of Daimon as an ancient deity of Netheril: <http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/9974/daimon.htm >
According to this site Daimon has recently roused himself to seek the reunification of Beshaba and Tymora to reform his beloved Tyche.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31591 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2006 :  11:31:16  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shilo99


According to this site Daimon has recently roused himself to seek the reunification of Beshaba and Tymora to reform his beloved Tyche.



Lathander already tried that. They don't want to rejoin.

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