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 Keeping Spellplague but omitting Second Sundering?
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Inveterate_DM
Acolyte

USA
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Posted - 13 Jan 2021 :  23:33:08  Show Profile Send Inveterate_DM a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
What would be the implications? I'm specifically interested in how that would affect the Sword Coast and Savage Frontier regions.

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 14 Jan 2021 :  04:47:17  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Basically, things stay as they were in the 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 14 Jan 2021 :  04:49:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And 4E/Spellplague naysayers: Please, for the love of Lurue, just pass this one by. We know your opinion. We've seen it already. I'm with you, but it's not productive to keep bringing it up, and it doesn't further this particular discussion. Let's just stay on topic, here.

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Diffan
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4054 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2021 :  06:01:04  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Inveterate_DM

What would be the implications? I'm specifically interested in how that would affect the Sword Coast and Savage Frontier regions.



So, are we asking what would happen if you advance the timeline to where we're at currently with 5E, but ignoring the effects of the Second Sundering and maintaining the Spellplague?

So, from what I'd gather:

• the war between Cormyr/Sembia/Myth Drannor/Netheril would've probably lasted longer, possibly resulting in the destruction or reduction of any of the mentioned nations (not just the majority of Myth Drannor during the Herald).

• Mystra's resurrection. I don't know if she's tied directly to the second sundering (clarification for those who've read the Herald?) but it'd be hard to justify the continued Spellplague AND still have Mystra with the Weave. For MY personal 4E games, Mystra isn't dead and I have a whole arc with the PCs going about to resolve her reincarnation, which will culminate in a new Weave - yet is unstable and will still allow the Plague-changed people and lands to remain in similar fashion.

• Other Gods: Again, not sure if they're return (Tyr, Helm, Bhaal, Myrkul, etc) is a direct result of the Second Sundering but if so, then they'd still remain gone. Helm is bound in a sword until 1486 DR and I think those events are in The Sentinel. How the others come back is, from what I recall, divine intervention from Ao. In any event, I feel you can bring them back to a Spellplague Realms with little to no significant changes.

• Cities and Geographical locations: Obviously this is a big one. Changes would include Returned Abeir, Tymanthyr, and Akanűl staying put and Maztica and Mulhorand/Unther remaining in Abeir. Since 5E really hasn't touched anything regarding these regions, I think it's safe to assume they're mutable in the least.

• Magic: This depends on what D&D system you're using. Really, in the narrative of the setting - it's mutable. One of my biggest peeves is this belief that the changes to the Realms was necessary when 4E was released because magic changed. In 4E, Wizards use spellbooks to derive their magic, Clerics plea to their deities, Sorcerers draw upon their innate capabilities, Warlock make pacts with otherworldly beings, etc. Simply because you're not using Vancian exclusively didn't mean you make all these changes.

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Irennan
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Italy
3323 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2021 :  06:22:45  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Basically, things stay as they were in the 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide.



It's a little bit more complicated than that, because of all the info that 5e added that isn't tied to the Second Sundering.

For example, Mystra (as well as a bunch of other gods presumed gone) actually being alive (if weakened or temporarily inactive), and the Weave being reduced to strands but not gone. Or Halruaa having shifted to Abeir, but still surviving.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 14 Jan 2021 06:25:39
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Diffan
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Posted - 14 Jan 2021 :  08:02:36  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Basically, things stay as they were in the 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide.



It's a little bit more complicated than that, because of all the info that 5e added that isn't tied to the Second Sundering.


Is there a list that shows what directly resulted from the Second Sundering and what just sort of got hand-waved back in? For example, Tyr is back....but how? Was he mentioned in another novel or something and was that in direct relation to the Sundering 2.0?

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

For example, Mystra (as well as a bunch of other gods presumed gone) actually being alive (if weakened or temporarily inactive), and the Weave being reduced to strands but not gone. Or Halruaa having shifted to Abeir, but still surviving.



Halruaa never shifted to Abeir, simply got FUBAR with the Spellplague and now (was?) a Plaguechanged Hellscape.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3323 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2021 :  08:15:28  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

Is there a list that shows what directly resulted from the Second Sundering and what just sort of got hand-waved back in? For example, Tyr is back....but how? Was he mentioned in another novel or something and was that in direct relation to the Sundering 2.0?


Tyr was the result of Ao's intervention, but other things received an explanation (for example, other gods). Generally, if it hasn't an expalantion, it was Ao/Second Sundering.

quote:
Halruaa never shifted to Abeir, simply got FUBAR with the Spellplague and now (was?) a Plaguechanged Hellscape.



It actually shifted to Abeir, because its mages managed to save it by shifting it to Abeir. Ed said it, and the SCAG also mentions it. It's one of the things unrelated to the Second Sundering that 5e explained.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 14 Jan 2021 08:16:17
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4054 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2021 :  09:32:20  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

Is there a list that shows what directly resulted from the Second Sundering and what just sort of got hand-waved back in? For example, Tyr is back....but how? Was he mentioned in another novel or something and was that in direct relation to the Sundering 2.0?


Tyr was the result of Ao's intervention, but other things received an explanation (for example, other gods). Generally, if it hasn't an expalantion, it was Ao/Second Sundering.


Gotcha. It'd be nice to have a big list, like an index, as to what/how it changed and maybe the source of this change.

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Halruaa never shifted to Abeir, simply got FUBAR with the Spellplague and now (was?) a Plaguechanged Hellscape.



It actually shifted to Abeir, because its mages managed to save it by shifting it to Abeir. Ed said it, and the SCAG also mentions it. It's one of the things unrelated to the Second Sundering that 5e explained.



I just read that. Interesting, since the FRCG said: "The Spellplague was not kind to Halruaa, heir to the Netherese veneration ofm agic. Fully half of the land dissolved during the initial wave of blue fire." I guess one could take the context of Dissolved into simply gone via magical means.

Edited by - Diffan on 14 Jan 2021 09:33:28
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

772 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2021 :  09:32:33  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

Is there a list that shows what directly resulted from the Second Sundering and what just sort of got hand-waved back in? For example, Tyr is back....but how? Was he mentioned in another novel or something and was that in direct relation to the Sundering 2.0?


Tyr was the result of Ao's intervention, but other things received an explanation (for example, other gods). Generally, if it hasn't an expalantion, it was Ao/Second Sundering.



I'm with Irennan on it being the go-to handwaive explanation for how things ended up.

I'm just an amateur on 4th and 5th edition lore but beside the shifting of land-patches/nations back and forth between Abeir and Toril it's kind of difficult to say with certainty what was caused by the Second Sundering by itself.

There is a lot of stuff that happened around the same time that was "simply" the effect of actions and sagas started in the 1480s (or before) and going forward (the Sea of Fallen Stars rising again, the huge rift in the Shaar filling up, some big wars, etc...).

I think without the Second Sundering you will have a lot of befuddled scholars and priests and sage-types wondering what's up with the whole deity miracles/manifestations and Chosen discount business that went around in the late 1480s as I think the canonical explanation is that deities were positioning themselves to take advantage of the Second Sundering, hence the mayhem.
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Inveterate_DM
Acolyte

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2021 :  23:15:08  Show Profile Send Inveterate_DM a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ugh. Far more complicated than I'd hoped. I liked the Spellplague, but I guess I didn't like any of the Abeir stuff; coming or going.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34475 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2021 :  23:52:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Basically, things stay as they were in the 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide.



It's a little bit more complicated than that, because of all the info that 5e added that isn't tied to the Second Sundering.

For example, Mystra (as well as a bunch of other gods presumed gone) actually being alive (if weakened or temporarily inactive), and the Weave being reduced to strands but not gone. Or Halruaa having shifted to Abeir, but still surviving.



As far as I'm concerned, that's all part of the Second Sundering. All of it -- lands changing back, the Sea of Fallen Stars refilling, Chosen lurking under every rock, deities suddenly popping back up, the whole shebang. Purely mortal stuff -- events caused by mortal actors, limited to the mortal world -- that wasn't a result of the Sundering, that's all that would have to be updated.

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Kentinal
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4543 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2021 :  00:19:52  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Inveterate_DM

Ugh. Far more complicated than I'd hoped. I liked the Spellplague, but I guess I didn't like any of the Abeir stuff; coming or going.



The best idea that I can offer is the changes that occurred are the result of twisted magic of the Spellplague. As you do not want Abeir coming or going it would appear you want to go from third edition maps to 5th edition maps. Just skipping the interaction that came from Abeir. You can still keep the deities being effected by the Spellplague, even keep any new creatures that 5th might have that 3rd did not because of the twisting magic. What ever was Abeir stuff that remains are just changes caused by the uncontrolled magic.

Yes it would take work, however going off the path often has to be adjusted for. Some things that are provided now by WotC just will no longer be in your game. The further one moves from canon the more of new WotC material has to be adjusted to your game. As DM you just make it so.

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Irennan
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Italy
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Posted - 15 Jan 2021 :  01:15:46  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Basically, things stay as they were in the 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide.



It's a little bit more complicated than that, because of all the info that 5e added that isn't tied to the Second Sundering.

For example, Mystra (as well as a bunch of other gods presumed gone) actually being alive (if weakened or temporarily inactive), and the Weave being reduced to strands but not gone. Or Halruaa having shifted to Abeir, but still surviving.



As far as I'm concerned, that's all part of the Second Sundering. All of it -- lands changing back, the Sea of Fallen Stars refilling, Chosen lurking under every rock, deities suddenly popping back up, the whole shebang. Purely mortal stuff -- events caused by mortal actors, limited to the mortal world -- that wasn't a result of the Sundering, that's all that would have to be updated.



Yeah, but what does the OP mean by ingoring the 2nd Sundering? If they just meant "ignore all things 5e", then I don't think they would have asked this question.

If they meant things specifically caused by the 2nd Sundering, then even stuff like some of the gods suddenly reappearing would have happened regardless.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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keftiu
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494 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2021 :  03:16:25  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Something worth touching on: Aglarond may well fall to an invasion from Thay. Things are looking really dire for them in 1479, and I don’t think help is coming.

Also, OP, you may want to read up on the Living Forgotten Realms plotlines; they’re non-canon, but present one way that a continuation on from 4e might look like. I believe Mystra does end up coming back... but Shar also faces a variety of possible fates, aberrations are made to be a major threat to the Realms, there’s a fascinating civil war in Calimshan...

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.

Edited by - keftiu on 15 Jan 2021 15:49:01
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Diffan
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4054 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2021 :  18:09:46  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

Something worth touching on: Aglarond may well fall to an invasion from Thay. Things are looking really dire for them in 1479, and I don’t think help is coming.


In my games, in 1384 DR, the Simbul 'ported to Lantan during the Gondsman War and recruited a significant number of Gondsman (4E Warforged, mechanically speaking) in what she knew would be an upcoming war with Thay. The Gondsman, a bit bereft of direction and looking for a place of their own, accepted the Simbul because she offered them purpose on their own terms and acceptance as equals that the Lantaneese didn't (hence the war).

So in a massive ritual, she was able to get nearly 11,000 Gondsman/Warforged from the Trident Isles (a tiny cluster of islands South-West of Lantan) to her home country of Aglarond. What this means is that it introduces Warforged into the campaign setting and with a more diverse past than "Made from the Lantaneese" as well as give Aglarond a fighting chance against the incursions of Szass Tam in Thay.

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

Also, OP, you may want to read up on the Living Forgotten Realms plotlines; they’re non-canon, but present one way that a continuation on from 4e might look like. I believe Mystra does end up coming back... but Shar also faces a variety of possible fates, aberrations are made to be a major threat to the Realms, there’s a fascinating civil war in Calimshan...



I love these adventures, they're really well written and span ALL over the Realms: from Phlan and the Moonsea to Calimshan to Cormyr to the North and the Sword Coast. I really really with 5E would've modeled this approach, instead of AL sort of being a lot worse and having no ties.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

494 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2021 :  19:46:58  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Diffan, have you read the magazine article on the Gondsmen living in East Rift? I think you might enjoy it a lot.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4054 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2021 :  23:30:49  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

Diffan, have you read the magazine article on the Gondsmen living in East Rift? I think you might enjoy it a lot.



I have not! Was is a Dragon or Dungeon article? Sounds pretty awesome.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1832 Posts

Posted - 19 Jan 2021 :  04:53:14  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan


• Mystra's resurrection. I don't know if she's tied directly to the second sundering (clarification for those who've read the Herald?) but it'd be hard to justify the continued Spellplague AND still have Mystra with the Weave. For MY personal 4E games, Mystra isn't dead and I have a whole arc with the PCs going about to resolve her reincarnation, which will culminate in a new Weave - yet is unstable and will still allow the Plague-changed people and lands to remain in similar fashion.


Yep, Mystra's "resurrection" is unrelated to the 2nd Sundering. It happens in 1479 (see Elminster Enraged) while the 2nd Sundering starts in 1482.

So, I guess that Mystra and the Spellplague can coexists as they do in the post-Sundering world. The Spellplague would be more potent, tho. Perhaps eating at the Weave or something, which would make Mystra's quest to heal the Weave and that stuff.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan


quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

[quote]Halruaa never shifted to Abeir, simply got FUBAR with the Spellplague and now (was?) a Plaguechanged Hellscape.



It actually shifted to Abeir, because its mages managed to save it by shifting it to Abeir. Ed said it, and the SCAG also mentions it. It's one of the things unrelated to the Second Sundering that 5e explained.



Well, there are two explanations for what happened to Halruaa during the Spellplague. The SCAG has the lamest one: Halruaa went to Abeir as if nothing, and then came back.

Ed's explanation (you can get it here in the forums) is different, having Halruaa in a state of flux, blicking back and fort between the two worlds amid wild magic stuff. I prefer Ed's explanation.

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