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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
568 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2021 :  04:17:13  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I would like to get your opinion on what I have come up with for The Shield of Iriaebor. Here are the basic limits that canon has placed (From FRA and Powers of Faerun):

66 Constables patrol the city and there are about 8,000 members of The Shield (2e)

After coming up with the ranks of The Shield (it is a modified version of Cormyr's system since I figure that Cormyr was founded first) and accounting for the layout of Iriaebor, I have come up with The Shield consisting of 8,282 people.

For the city itself, I have 3155 people. That includes the command structure and the different duty stations (there are 30 wall towers, which covers the gates, as well as the Docks and the High Tower complex). It also covers the City patrols of two, 12-hour shifts of 33 Constables leading 5 other shield members (a 6 person team seems to be a logical size for handling minor disturbances). Given the city's trend to instability, I believe it is logical to have a very strong and visible patrol presence to deter the merchants' martial impulses.

I have 5127 people for external security. That includes their command structure with up to 100 23-man patrols and roughly the same amount of men to provide security for important structures outside of the city (Cemetery, flood control, a couple mills, etc). The patrol size I have based off of the number of people I have seen for Waterdeep and the Darkhold patrols. The patrol area is north of Iriaebor at least as far as Asbravn, east to the Far Hills, west to Fendarl's Gate, south to Easting and to within two day's ride south of the Chionthar (north branch or main river once both branches join).

So, is that too many patrols for the given areas?

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents

Kentinal
Great Reader

4542 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2021 :  05:34:50  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well for my city state I had city Watch normally numbered three to four, the field mounted patrols about nine. In part however each matters on how close support is if there is a major problem. Groups of three two minutes apart can be more effective then six five minutes apart. Some of force calculation has to be based on level of danger. It depends.

As to if there are too many, if you can collect enough fees or taxes to pay for them in some ways there can never be too much protection.

IIRC there was a calculator that offered that one percent of a town or city be hired troop. i believe that might be high, however the danger level in Realms is high as well. With about five percent of population that could be mustered as a militia.

I would look to the situation and economy of the local. Maybe the patrols need to be larger then my Nine or Ten when protecting the lands, because smaller groups disappear too often.

Also it clearly depends on how many you have stationed at : important structures outside of the city" that can not patrol.

All in all the more flexible you can move troops the better a defense is, with to one major point of your troops also staying effective.

There is never the best answer or plan, all plans change on contact with the foe. (Because of their plans ).

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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SaMoCon
Learned Scribe

USA
297 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2021 :  19:59:04  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

I would like to get your opinion on what I have come up with for The Shield of Iriaebor. Here are the basic limits that canon has placed (From FRA and Powers of Faerun):

66 Constables patrol the city and there are about 8,000 members of The Shield (2e)...

I was not aware that a city the size of Iriaebor had the wealth and population necessary to keep that many soldiers on full time. Even Waterdeep doesn't have that many on-duty soldiers in their city guard (approximately 1200), and that is an exceptionally rich & thriving city of over a hundred thousand year-round inhabitants. I think that number of 8k troops is "war footing" with the reserves called up and the city's armories emptied to outfit the muster of able bodies in emergencies or existential danger. That would match the Waterdhavian city guard's swelling to 12,000 strong "in times of war." If you extract that information from Waterdeep you get a neat basic formula that for every one full time soldier there are nine reservists that have regular day jobs and only respond to musters for drilling or when the alarm goes off but are otherwise engaged in running the local economy.

Also, I think it is a mistake to mix the constabulary with the soldiery. Aside from the politics of subordinating assets of the military leaders and sheriffs to each other, the missions & mind-sets of the two branches' members are entirely different since the soldiery neutralizes threats by acts or threats of violence while police seek orderly society by disrupting criminal activity without inciting the population. These starkly different enemy-elimination versus counter-insurgency concepts are why there is a division between military defense & civil enforcement. The Shield really should be relegated to manning the defensive works, serving as bodyguards to officials (tax collectors, port masters, duties inspectors, ceremonial appearances, traveling dignitaries, etc...), and patrolling the overland roads/borders/unpopulated areas. The constables should be the policing force with the skills & resources devoted to maintaining civil order (quelling disturbances, disrupting criminal activities, investigating crimes, placating victims, and keeping the populace satisfied with their governance). Or, more simply, if the job has high incidence of contact with citizens then its a job for the police while a high incidence of contact with transients & foreigners it is a job for the military.

But that's just my opinion.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
568 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2021 :  23:20:22  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you. That made me do a deeper dive into taxation in the city. According to 2e stats, Iriaebor has a population of about 81k.

Doing some calculations based on the size of the Tor (where the rich merchants live) and working out how much that force size would could cost, I figure a 4 gp/mo per 100 sqft of base building space (only the first floor counts so it doesn't matter how much higher they build) would be enough to cover the costs of the Shield. That seems ok since the merchants would be the ones most helped by the area patrols (keeping their caravans safe). A relatively small property tax for the other two districts as well as a minor charge per wagonload of goods would easily cover the rest of the city's expenses.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4542 Posts

Posted - 12 Jan 2021 :  12:40:37  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Taxation of building RW is based on estimated value, not just square foot. So a one story building would often be taxed less then two story. It though depends, the one story could be in high price area.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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SaMoCon
Learned Scribe

USA
297 Posts

Posted - 12 Jan 2021 :  14:03:08  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just making sure you haven't lost sight of this notion - the population number is more than just a counting of hale & hardy young men, but includes about 50% women and a sizable amount of children, middle-aged, and (less numerous) elderly. So a full time army of 8k out of Iriaebor's population of 81k (I forgot 2e had it that high) is not 10% of its available prime labor but somewhere around 30% or more.


Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
568 Posts

Posted - 12 Jan 2021 :  14:46:50  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

Taxation of building RW is based on estimated value, not just square foot. So a one story building would often be taxed less then two story. It though depends, the one story could be in high price area.



Yep, I am aware of how RW property taxes are done. My research also turned up that property taxes have been around for thousands of years. I don't think they did it by value back then and square footage seemed to be the simplest system (beyond a flat fee per building). Doing it by area taken up in a limit space (like the Tor) seemed to me to be a logical avenue and it would also give another why they decided to build up instead of out (building up does not raise your taxes).

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
568 Posts

Posted - 12 Jan 2021 :  14:55:57  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

Just making sure you haven't lost sight of this notion - the population number is more than just a counting of hale & hardy young men, but includes about 50% women and a sizable amount of children, middle-aged, and (less numerous) elderly. So a full time army of 8k out of Iriaebor's population of 81k (I forgot 2e had it that high) is not 10% of its available prime labor but somewhere around 30% or more.





I am just going off of the canon number provided in the FRA and VGttSC. Both provide an 8k number for The Shield. It is better explained in the FRA as an artificially inflated number. The number is actually 2k but then Bron hired another 6k of mercenaries. VGttSC revises that to a single 8k number. Since there is a 10 year difference between the two sources, it would seem that Iriaebor simply integrated those mercenaries into the permanent force.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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