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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3965 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2020 :  00:22:02  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So the second fully fleshed out campaign setting came out for 5E called Mythic Odyssey of Theros. This, along with Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica and the multitude of Plane-Shift articles (Amonkhet, Dominaria, Innistrad, Zendikar, Kaladesh, and the Ixalan Adventure) has shown me, at least, that WotC is fully committed to pushing the two games together (no in terms of mechanics, but quite possibly the Lore).

Which begs the question: How does this (or should this) work with Realmspace? While M:tG works on the concept of "Mana" - even loosely reading the novels - does this interfere with the Weave? Would it? Would it work harmoniously with the Weave? What sort of ramifications occur when, say... a Wizard of the Tolarian Academies of Dominaria plane-shifts into Waterdeep?

Something that prompted this cross-over idea was the designs of the evil Planeswalker Nicol Bolas and his desire to conquer the various planes of Magic and I don't see him stopping or attempting to take planes such as Toril or Eberron.

Which also makes me question: What is the power-level of someone like a Planeswalker, at least in comparison to what powerful beings we have on Faerûn such as the Chosen, Archmages, Archliches, etc.? Is the power comparable? Are Planeswalkers more supreme, maybe like lesser power Deities? How would you classify them?

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7134 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2020 :  02:09:54  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They might make it a standalone setting, nominally isolated from the rest of the D&D cosmos. Like they did with Darksun and Eberron.

Establishing links between the worlds would require conversion of MtG and D&D into each other's rulesets. Quite a comprehensive project, likely to produce more rulebooks than the Core ruleset or setting rulesets ... a worthwhile undertaking (for WotC) if the crossover generates a lot of ongoing interest (and revenue).

But it would also open a lot of cans of worms. Could Planescape or Spelljammer reach this world of Theros? Does Ravenloft intrude on Theros? Does it impose special rules on magic, spellcasting, psionics, etc? How do cosmos=spanning D&D things (like artifacts, the Spellplague, Hand and Eye of Vecna, Asmodeus) affect the MtG game world? - either it does or it doesn't, and either way the reasons need to be explained.

I'm guessing that a lot of MtG players are also D&D players, they'd love to see these things linked together.
And I'm guessing that a lot of people play MtG or play D&D but have no interest in playing both and strong feelings about keeping them apart.

[/Ayrik]
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2188 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2020 :  03:45:47  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They work fine together.

As Ed has said MANY times - the forgotten realms are NOT just realmspace - its the many worlds of the alternate prime material planes, that we on Earth forgot about.

I see no reason why the entirety of MTG could not fit into a subset of the many worlds. Thus you have the planeswalkers, and their known planes. There are literally INFINITE material planes. Room for all.

Edited by - The Masked Mage on 30 Jul 2020 03:46:16
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9252 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2020 :  11:57:55  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From what I've seen mind you, of these MTG worlds, a lot of them seem much smaller in scale than say realmspace. I say that in looking at Amonkhet, and Ravnica is all about a city too I thought. Are these much smaller in scale (I think the one with the jungle... Ixalan… may have been bigger). I venture that some of these might be less on the size of a crystal sphere and more on the size of a large demiplane? Am I close to hitting the nail on the head with that statement? If so, then that does make the idea of the power of these planeswalkers more scaled back (to kind of get back to your original question).

As an aside, what I kind of wonder is whether it might not be a fun thing to introduce either NEW planets or REPLACED planets into realmspace as a result of the Second Sundering? After all, did Ao only twin the one world? Was there maybe other worlds at the time of the Tearfall and they were ALSO pulled into phase with Abeir?

This all being said, Diffan, I must say how awful of you..... teasing me like that.... it's.. it's … just plain mean.... so WotC released something and no links so that I can instantly gorge myself on the material?

No worries, I googled the name. Huh, they have a lion folk (they call it the Leonin). I was putting some in Katashaka and calling them Lenastans… yoink, bought.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 30 Jul 2020 12:19:27
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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
274 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2020 :  12:59:49  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Diffan: Ever played the Norwegian Funcom games The Longest Journey and Dreamfall? The "hero" is a person able to walk planes, litterally move. Unfortunately, that ability do not provide anything else in those games, so... The two games is "monkey island" style click and rip off stuff and stuff cartwheels into pocket style click games..

The worlds of Magic the Gathering is so different, so different, I imagine Forgotten Realms works with it, nicely. There might be "free magic" for planeswalkers which do not work in FR, as example. As I'm understanding, the heroic storyline Planeswalkers is heroes of journeys, with backstory equal to Drizzt or Elminster, an lvl 1-2 player with the ability would be an 3.5D&D +1 or +2 level character on his first jouney, with an magical ability (from an feat) granting a skill he or she do not fully understand, giving a vague magical ability, perhaps to roll a dice and try something, in a dream, or on certain places, to go, to walk, suddenly to wake up in different planes....
Just my sugestion to make it work.
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3965 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2020 :  14:31:05  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

They might make it a standalone setting, nominally isolated from the rest of the D&D cosmos. Like they did with Darksun and Eberron.

Establishing links between the worlds would require conversion of MtG and D&D into each other's rulesets. Quite a comprehensive project, likely to produce more rulebooks than the Core ruleset or setting rulesets ... a worthwhile undertaking (for WotC) if the crossover generates a lot of ongoing interest (and revenue).


That's pretty much what they did with the 5th Edition ruleset. The two source books and multiple Plane-Shifts all use 5E and only passingly speak about "mana" as a factor in their actual mechanics, but it's more lore focused than anything. I'm not really talking about the card game, but the settings and genre that comes from it and the stories they tell.

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

But it would also open a lot of cans of worms. Could Planescape or Spelljammer reach this world of Theros? Does Ravenloft intrude on Theros? Does it impose special rules on magic, spellcasting, psionics, etc? How do cosmos=spanning D&D things (like artifacts, the Spellplague, Hand and Eye of Vecna, Asmodeus) affect the MtG game world? - either it does or it doesn't, and either way the reasons need to be explained.


All questions I'd love some feedback on. Ultimately WotC is treating each setting as its own "Sphere". Meaning that events that occur in say....Curse of Strhad won't effect anything relating to the multi-verse of M:tG (unless you want it to). But with all of these following the same rulset, I don't see how it's not at least possible cross-overs can't occur and possibly should. Something about Thayan wizards getting a hold of Phyrexian technology and spells absolutely thrills and terrifies me at the same time! It's certainly something to think about.

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I'm guessing that a lot of MtG players are also D&D players, they'd love to see these things linked together.
And I'm guessing that a lot of people play MtG or play D&D but have no interest in playing both and strong feelings about keeping them apart.



I guess I fall into the first group, getting into Magic before I got into D&D but it always sort of felt they should've been paired FAR FAR earlier than now.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3965 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2020 :  14:36:29  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

They work fine together.

As Ed has said MANY times - the forgotten realms are NOT just realmspace - its the many worlds of the alternate prime material planes, that we on Earth forgot about.

I see no reason why the entirety of MTG could not fit into a subset of the many worlds. Thus you have the planeswalkers, and their known planes. There are literally INFINITE material planes. Room for all.




My thoughts as well, which makes for a great discussion on how these crossovers could affect places such as the Realms! I could certainly see some of the more powerful Planeswalkers coming to Faerûn to seek guidance, help, spells, magic, etc. from the more notable people.

And of course, this intrusion into Realmspace from the M:tG folks can put them into these places as well. Zhentarim soldiers helping solidify boarders of Keld on Dominaria or the Arcane Brotherhood working with Dimir infiltrators or the Order of Aster teaming up with the Boros Legion! Lots of really interesting concepts to think about.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3965 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2020 :  14:50:53  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

From what I've seen mind you, of these MTG worlds, a lot of them seem much smaller in scale than say realmspace. I say that in looking at Amonkhet, and Ravnica is all about a city too I thought. Are these much smaller in scale (I think the one with the jungle... Ixalan… may have been bigger). I venture that some of these might be less on the size of a crystal sphere and more on the size of a large demiplane? Am I close to hitting the nail on the head with that statement? If so, then that does make the idea of the power of these planeswalkers more scaled back (to kind of get back to your original question).


It's known that many of the Planes of Magic: the Gathering are indeed Spheres like a Planet. Dominaria, the "hub" as it were, is approximately over twice the size of Earth. Ravnica, despite the book focusing on one part of the setting, is like a giant city-planet (think Coruscant from Star Wars). Other planes, like Rath, are legitimately one singular plane of ground that tappers at the bottom OR the Shards of Alara sort of piece together to form a large plane.

I'd say for the most part they are their own worlds and quite large.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

As an aside, what I kind of wonder is whether it might not be a fun thing to introduce either NEW planets or REPLACED planets into realmspace as a result of the Second Sundering? After all, did Ao only twin the one world? Was there maybe other worlds at the time of the Tearfall and they were ALSO pulled into phase with Abeir?


That's definitely a great way to introduce them in a campaign setting, for sure. At least, how people "in the know" might view or otherwise sense their appearance and possibly find ways to interact with them.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

This all being said, Diffan, I must say how awful of you..... teasing me like that.... it's.. it's … just plain mean.... so WotC released something and no links so that I can instantly gorge myself on the material?

No worries, I googled the name. Huh, they have a lion folk (they call it the Leonin). I was putting some in Katashaka and calling them Lenastans… yoink, bought.



Lol, sorry. Here's links to them:

Amonkhet
Dominaria
Innistrad
Ixalan
Kaladesh
Zendikar

These are all free offerings from WotC sites to use in your games. I also highly recommend both the Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica and Mythic Odyssey of Theros as they're great supplements that you can use for any style campaign.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
709 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2020 :  15:00:26  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When they were pulling together 5e, one of the positive things they highlighted about 2E was the enormous expansion of settings. Seems like we are seeing that now.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9252 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2020 :  16:49:26  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

All questions I'd love some feedback on. Ultimately WotC is treating each setting as its own "Sphere". Meaning that events that occur in say....Curse of Strhad won't effect anything relating to the multi-verse of M:tG (unless you want it to). But with all of these following the same rulset, I don't see how it's not at least possible cross-overs can't occur and possibly should. Something about Thayan wizards getting a hold of Phyrexian technology and spells absolutely thrills and terrifies me at the same time! It's certainly something to think about.



You know how to get my attention. Shine the light and I will follow please goodsir. Phyrexian technology is where?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3965 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2020 :  20:52:48  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

All questions I'd love some feedback on. Ultimately WotC is treating each setting as its own "Sphere". Meaning that events that occur in say....Curse of Strhad won't effect anything relating to the multi-verse of M:tG (unless you want it to). But with all of these following the same rulset, I don't see how it's not at least possible cross-overs can't occur and possibly should. Something about Thayan wizards getting a hold of Phyrexian technology and spells absolutely thrills and terrifies me at the same time! It's certainly something to think about.



You know how to get my attention. Shine the light and I will follow please goodsir. Phyrexian technology is where?



Well they haven't given stats for things found in M:tG universes for D&D, yet. Lore & Info about the old Phyrexian plane can be found here. Basically its really bad, infuse with chaos and pain. It's the place I envisioned the ship from the movie Event Horizon making its way to and back from.

They're basically the Big Bad through most of the early years of M:tG and wanting to take over other Planes. Their artifacts and devices can be looked through Here and be my guest at turning these things into monsters or devices found in D&D.

Edit: Also, I should point out that Phyrexian's are similar to the Borg in some regards, taking people they capture and turning them into monstrosities of their former selves.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Edited by - Diffan on 30 Jul 2020 21:57:41
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3965 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2020 :  21:55:38  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

When they were pulling together 5e, one of the positive things they highlighted about 2E was the enormous expansion of settings. Seems like we are seeing that now.



Well despite their hyper-focus on pretty much JUST the Sword Coast for the Forgotten Realms, getting an Eberron book, a Ravenloft adventure/lore, and two Magic: the Gathering Settings (plus all those Plane-Shifts) I'd say they're doing a pretty great job on that front.

Of course, I'd love to see more of the Realms detailed. Books like Ed's Borderlands Supplement certainly help - no doubt - I just wish he got more on that front. When was the last book about Cormyr? or the Dalelands? Or even the Moonsea (Mysteries of the Moonsea was not my favorite regional book....)?

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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PattPlays
Learned Scribe

87 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2020 :  23:31:41  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

When they were pulling together 5e, one of the positive things they highlighted about 2E was the enormous expansion of settings. Seems like we are seeing that now.



Well despite their hyper-focus on pretty much JUST the Sword Coast for the Forgotten Realms, getting an Eberron book, a Ravenloft adventure/lore, and two Magic: the Gathering Settings (plus all those Plane-Shifts) I'd say they're doing a pretty great job on that front.

Of course, I'd love to see more of the Realms detailed. Books like Ed's Borderlands Supplement certainly help - no doubt - I just wish he got more on that front. When was the last book about Cormyr? or the Dalelands? Or even the Moonsea (Mysteries of the Moonsea was not my favorite regional book....)?



I was looking into using Cormyr for an abyssal plot in 5e, and found Cormyr to be an incredibly hard topic to research in the age of 5e.
I would love something to happen involving it..

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:


https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com

T_P_T
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Archfey of Debauchery
Seeker

23 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2020 :  21:43:57  Show Profile Send Archfey of Debauchery a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like this. I think it could be done with 4 or 5 ed.
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3965 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2020 :  14:58:33  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

When they were pulling together 5e, one of the positive things they highlighted about 2E was the enormous expansion of settings. Seems like we are seeing that now.



Well despite their hyper-focus on pretty much JUST the Sword Coast for the Forgotten Realms, getting an Eberron book, a Ravenloft adventure/lore, and two Magic: the Gathering Settings (plus all those Plane-Shifts) I'd say they're doing a pretty great job on that front.

Of course, I'd love to see more of the Realms detailed. Books like Ed's Borderlands Supplement certainly help - no doubt - I just wish he got more on that front. When was the last book about Cormyr? or the Dalelands? Or even the Moonsea (Mysteries of the Moonsea was not my favorite regional book....)?



I was looking into using Cormyr for an abyssal plot in 5e, and found Cormyr to be an incredibly hard topic to research in the age of 5e.
I would love something to happen involving it..



Yeah it's a shame really. Honestly, I don't think there's been a proper supplement for Cormyr since before 3rd Edition. 3E barely touched on the region except what we saw in some novels and the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book and while the FRCG for 4th Edition had even less, there were quite a few articles written in Dragon magazine for them. I could find the article numbers and let you know if you'd like? That at least updates Cormyr to the late 1400's DR timeline and you can surmise what happens since.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3965 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2020 :  15:02:10  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Totally NOT Copper Elven Vampire

I like this. I think it could be done with 4 or 5 ed.



I think it could use any system, really. What WotC did was remove the concept of "mana" as we know it from a Magic: the Gathering perspective. Even in the novels, mana was referenced as a sort of affinity for particular kinds of magic and you didn't need that resource to cast magic, however if you were in that element then your magic was considerably stronger.

There have been many attempts to put the various D&D Schools of magic into "colors" but I think there's just too much overlap in terms of what spells can achieve to have such arbitrary conformity.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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PattPlays
Learned Scribe

87 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2020 :  02:21:51  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

When they were pulling together 5e, one of the positive things they highlighted about 2E was the enormous expansion of settings. Seems like we are seeing that now.



Well despite their hyper-focus on pretty much JUST the Sword Coast for the Forgotten Realms, getting an Eberron book, a Ravenloft adventure/lore, and two Magic: the Gathering Settings (plus all those Plane-Shifts) I'd say they're doing a pretty great job on that front.

Of course, I'd love to see more of the Realms detailed. Books like Ed's Borderlands Supplement certainly help - no doubt - I just wish he got more on that front. When was the last book about Cormyr? or the Dalelands? Or even the Moonsea (Mysteries of the Moonsea was not my favorite regional book....)?



I was looking into using Cormyr for an abyssal plot in 5e, and found Cormyr to be an incredibly hard topic to research in the age of 5e.
I would love something to happen involving it..



Yeah it's a shame really. Honestly, I don't think there's been a proper supplement for Cormyr since before 3rd Edition. 3E barely touched on the region except what we saw in some novels and the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book and while the FRCG for 4th Edition had even less, there were quite a few articles written in Dragon magazine for them. I could find the article numbers and let you know if you'd like? That at least updates Cormyr to the late 1400's DR timeline and you can surmise what happens since.



Tell me about it. One chracter is working solely out of the Scag's desription and the concept of "empire, war wizards, noble knights" as their only reference points. Because of the wonder of 5e's "inspire, dont preach" way of describing things that is totally enough to fuel a character. For tje dm however, it stinks. Idk if its still that heirless queen ruling or a new king.

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:


https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com

T_P_T
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