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 Why has the Aglarond-Thay war stopped?
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keftiu
Learned Scribe

89 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2019 :  22:11:02  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
In 4eís setting, Aglarond was fighting what sure seemed like a losing war against Thay, who was invading them with an army of undead supplemented with orc and gnoll mercenaries; come 5e, the scant info we have says that the fighting has stopped because Aglarondís ruling council has ďbacked away from hostilities,Ē as if they were the aggressor. Any insight folks might have on this?

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.

Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
605 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2019 :  01:20:54  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If I am correct Szass Tam rules Thay in that time and his quarrel was mainly with Rashemen so it make sense to focus on that instead of having all your surrounding nations hate you.
I am not strong in 4e/5e lore so I might be wrong...
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6926 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2019 :  02:30:37  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aglarond may not have been the aggressor but they were also not entirely reluctant participants. The two nations share a long history of mutual antagonism.

I'm guessing that "backed away from hostilities" simply means that Aglarond hasn't (yet) chosen to retaliate against Thay regardless of Thay's apparent weakness.
And I'm guessing that there's less impetus for war (along with less firepower and real chance of victory) without that belligerent and hateful Simbul creature always looking for ways to hurt the reviled Red Wizards.

But what is the source of your quoted text? The surrounding context might provide more explanation.

[/Ayrik]
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keftiu
Learned Scribe

89 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2019 :  07:48:16  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

If I am correct Szass Tam rules Thay in that time and his quarrel was mainly with Rashemen so it make sense to focus on that instead of having all your surrounding nations hate you.
I am not strong in 4e/5e lore so I might be wrong...



Heís not invading over any quarrel, heís doing so to use the land of Aglarond as fuel for another go at ascension, since his attempt in Thay failed and canít be replicated on the same land.

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Aglarond may not have been the aggressor but they were also not entirely reluctant participants. The two nations share a long history of mutual antagonism.

I'm guessing that "backed away from hostilities" simply means that Aglarond hasn't (yet) chosen to retaliate against Thay regardless of Thay's apparent weakness.
And I'm guessing that there's less impetus for war (along with less firepower and real chance of victory) without that belligerent and hateful Simbul creature always looking for ways to hurt the reviled Red Wizards.

But what is the source of your quoted text? The surrounding context might provide more explanation.



Quote is from the SCAG, and is preceded by essentially saying their longtime mutual enmity was partly due to the Simbul.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8493 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2019 :  23:06:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, let's face it, he had his poker in a lot of fires. He was gathering chosen and having them experimented on. He was sending people down into Chult to research there. He was messing around in Neverwinter. He was facing off against Rashemen and the leader of the Eminence of Araunt. He had forces in Mulmaster. He may have just lost focus on Aglarond, and they said "ok, let's catch our breath".

Then the Sundering happened, and lord only knows how many of his enemies have returned (a lot of them if I have my stuff happen).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1000 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2019 :  23:21:06  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For years the Simbul was single-handedly holding back Thay from Aglarond; and yet after the Smellplague when the idiots in charge took out all the Chosen, Thay doesn't take over or even try to take over Aglarond? It makes no sense, just another plot hole to add to the pile (of crap).

Sorry if anyone is offended, obviously just my opinion. But there are many sources that say the Simbul is the only thing that kept Thay from taking over the area.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8493 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2019 :  00:16:10  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

For years the Simbul was single-handedly holding back Thay from Aglarond; and yet after the Smellplague when the idiots in charge took out all the Chosen, Thay doesn't take over or even try to take over Aglarond? It makes no sense, just another plot hole to add to the pile (of crap).

Sorry if anyone is offended, obviously just my opinion. But there are many sources that say the Simbul is the only thing that kept Thay from taking over the area.


Aft
except that when the spellplague happened Thay was in the middle of a civil war... and then there was ten years of magical upheaval. Prior to the Thayan civil war, if she had vanished, yeah, maybe. After the start of the Thayan civil war though, they were preoccupied. Then once things settled down, there for a while, Tam was just trying to keep everyone out while he constructed his special towers which took decades. So, I see that more of a "keep them on the defensive so they don't mess up my plans" type of scenario. Then the Zulkirs ruined his plan.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1000 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2019 :  00:54:18  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suppose you can hand wave it wasn't a priority, given all the events, but they seemed to write Thay and Szass pretty aggressive in other areas of the Realms after the Smellplague settled. Hard to believe Thay's immediate neighbors and worst enemies for decades would be just left alone to live peacefully for 100 years... To me, it's a plot hole they didn't try to take advantage of the Simbul being gone and wipe out Aglarond or take it over after all that occurred. In 100 years.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8493 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2019 :  15:43:36  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some of the other areas might be more valuable real estate on a "how much effort to conquer versus what I get" than conquering Aglarond. Not saying that that IS the case, but we don't exactly know WHAT makes a land valuable for the ritual he was trying to invoke. For that matter, we don't know that HE truly knows what makes a land valuable for the ritual OR even if the ritual isn't just an elaborate hoax that he fell for (which is an idea I prefer). For instance, Neverwinter, he may have been seeking to leech off the trapped dawn titan (which honestly, I've never read the novels, didn't play the video game, nor do I have the 4e Neverwinter campaign, though I may try to pick it up, since people said its good.... its odd I was much more interested in Neverwinter 20 years ago). His interests in Mulmaster might be similar, but then they had some kind of magical issues there that devastated that city as well.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1446 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2019 :  16:31:21  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For Tam's ritual to work he needs a land that is marked with the essence of massive amounts of deaths. Neverwinter is useful for this because all the casualties of the Ruining, for instance.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopherís path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
605 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2019 :  16:49:33  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

I suppose you can hand wave it wasn't a priority, given all the events, but they seemed to write Thay and Szass pretty aggressive in other areas of the Realms after the Smellplague settled. Hard to believe Thay's immediate neighbors and worst enemies for decades would be just left alone to live peacefully for 100 years... To me, it's a plot hole they didn't try to take advantage of the Simbul being gone and wipe out Aglarond or take it over after all that occurred. In 100 years.


Or you can say that it wasn't just Simbul who defended Aglarond... I get she is powerful but she is still only one caster - you can be at only one place at the time. This can create a new question of what is really going on in Aglarond and what truly keep Thay at bay...
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keftiu
Learned Scribe

89 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2019 :  18:54:12  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

I suppose you can hand wave it wasn't a priority, given all the events, but they seemed to write Thay and Szass pretty aggressive in other areas of the Realms after the Smellplague settled. Hard to believe Thay's immediate neighbors and worst enemies for decades would be just left alone to live peacefully for 100 years... To me, it's a plot hole they didn't try to take advantage of the Simbul being gone and wipe out Aglarond or take it over after all that occurred. In 100 years.




They werenít peacefully left alone, though? Thay and Aglarond are actively at war in 4e - Thay has captured an Aglarondan city, and recruits constantly sally forth from Citadel Dantalien - so Iím not sure what youíre getting at here. Both 4e corebooks paint a grim situation for Aglarond, who is stated to not have the forces to protect every front and is struggling where they do have troops.

EDIT: Also, do you have to call it the Smellplague?

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.

Edited by - keftiu on 16 Dec 2019 18:55:26
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
605 Posts

Posted - 17 Dec 2019 :  14:47:33  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
They werenít peacefully left alone, though? Thay and Aglarond are actively at war in 4e - Thay has captured an Aglarondan city, and recruits constantly sally forth from Citadel Dantalien - so Iím not sure what youíre getting at here. Both 4e corebooks paint a grim situation for Aglarond, who is stated to not have the forces to protect every front and is struggling where they do have troops.


From what you wrote it seems that Aglarond were loosing the war. It means that Thay must had a reason to leave them (to focus on other problem requiring army?).
I would not be surprised to find out that authors had no good reason to do that and only wanted Aglarond free again. I would suggest to study the lore finding what is happening in the area and make your own judgement.
As I have said there might be some other protection of Aglarond beyond Simbul that Thay found about only later in the campaign and decided to back off. Or there might be a renewed activity of Mulhorand against Thay that forced them to abandon Aglarond...
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