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 Reconciling Dates for Elves and Drow
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billbisco
Acolyte

USA
5 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2019 :  16:19:57  Show Profile Send billbisco a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hi all, I'm reading "Grand History of the Realms" and other sources and am trying to get a consistent timelines on the Elves and the Drow.

1. Apparently Corellon Larethian is born/created in Ysgard and at some point he heads over to Arborea and take over lands controlled by the giants and names the area Arvandor ( Source: On Hallowed Ground)
2. Apparently some elves stayed behind in Ysgard. (Source: On Hallowed Ground)
3. At some point in the future Aurashnee betrays Corellon and tries to
get him killed via Gruumsh and then Malar. Corellon slices off Gruumsh's eye. Corellon discovers that Araushnee was ultimately responsible and Araushnee, Vhaerun, and Elistraee are banished. ( Source: Evermeet: Island of Elves )
4. Banished Araushnee takes the name Lolth ( Source: ? )
5. The Dark Elves get banished to the Underdark ( Source: ?)

Here's what I don't get. The Grand History of the Realms says:

c. –30000 DR
— War of the Seldarine: Araushnee is cast down into the Demonweb Pits,
where she becomes the demon-goddess Lolth

c. –27000 DR
Continuing their work to undermine dragon rule, the Fey open new gates
allowing the first elves to immigrate to Toril. These primitive green elves
worship the Faerie gods (not the Seldarine, which were unknown at this time).
Although most green elves are content to remain in small scattered tribes,
one group known as the Ilythiiri negotiates with the dragons and begins to
carve out a small kingdom in the south. The great Ilythiiri capital at Atorrnash
remains a shining beacon of elf culture for millennia.


c. –25400 DR
Fleeing the destruction of the island kingdom of Tintageer on their home
world of Faerie, a small circle of gold elves led by the young prince Durothil
cast a divination to find their new home—on the world of Toril—and then
create a portal leading there. The refugees name their new home Faerûn, the
One Land. Integrating into the native green elf communities, the descendants
of the gold elves of Tintageer become known as sun elves, while the
descendants of the sole silver elf refugee, Sharlario Moonflower, become
known as moon elves.

c. –24400 DR
Lolth’s attention is drawn to Toril for the
first time as the moon elf Kethryllia battles
her minions in the Abyss before returning
home to Faerûn.

c. –20000 DR
Orishaar and the southern dark elf nation of Ilythiir begin skirmishes that
continue on and off for the next seven millennia

–10000 DR
Descent of the Drow: Corellon’s magic, as directed through his priests and
High Mages, transforms the dark elves, whether the corrupt Ilythiiri or
others, into the drow. Whether by magic or by the weaknesses that banish
them from the sunlit lands, all drow retreat within two months’ passing into
the Underdark.


Unanswered Questions:
Q1: Who precisely created Corellon?
Q2: Corellon created the Seldarine or they were created alongside with him?
Q3: Corellon created all the mortal elves or someone else created elves too?
Q4: At what point did these Ysgard or Arvandor elves emigrate to the Faerie plane? The elves have one creator, Corellon, not a dual dreation method?
Q5: The Ilythiiri elves are a tribe of green elves (wild elves). They're not drow right? So how are they associated with Lolth who apparently already had dark skin when green (wild) elves don't?
Q6: Why are the Fey opening gates to Toril and having elves living the Faerie arrive in Toril? Shouldn't a majority of elves be emigrating from Arvandor? Or, is this not the emigration starting point beacause it's not a "prime material" plane and the Faerie is a "prime material" plane?
Q7: At what point did Ilythiir cease being a green elf nation and become a "dark elf" nation?
Q8: So Lolth was banished in -30,000 DR and the dark elves were cursed to become drow in -10,000 DR. That's a 20,000 year differential. Why did this take so long?

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3054 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2019 :  16:52:49  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Q1 has no canonical answer that I know of.

Q2 and Q3, the creation myth says that all elves were born from Corellon's blood during his battle with Gruumsh. However, this is a creation myth, it's not given for certain whether this is true or not. In some versions, the Seldarine too generated from Corellon (Mordenkainen supports this version) even though in FR the Seldarine didn't originate from him.

Q4, AFAIK, there's no precise date for this. Obviously, it's before Araushnee's betrayal.

Q5, Q7 and Q8 The whole dark elves/green elves/drow matter is full of incongruences in canon. Green elves seem to be ancestors of the dark elves and wood elves, and to me it seems that "green elf" is used to refer to both in the history of the elves in FR (where dark elf doesn't mean drow but basically a dark skinned elf. The dark elves started being called drow after Corellon punished them). Evermeet: Island of Elves says that the dark elves have always looked like drow; other sources stated that the dark elves looked basically like drow, but with a lighter skin tone (which became obsidian black after the Descent, but NOT because of some kind of relation with Lolth, only because of some "hurr durr, your skin will reflect your heart" BS). In Evermeet: Island of Elves, when Sharlario and Cornaith Moonflower go to Ilythiir and Eilistraee meets them (FAR before the Descent, and not long after the arrival of the other elves on Toril; so not long after -25k) Eilistraee already loooks like a drow, and so do the Ilythiiri. Ilythiir is also stated to be a dark elven elven nation, and nothing says it hasn't always been. This is one of the reasons why, to me, it seems that green elf is used to describe both ancient dark elves and wood/wild elves. In any case, long story short, the Ilythiirih ave always been dark elves, and the dark elves started being widely called drow (and got a skin tone darker than they already had) only after -10k DR. The term drow comes from dhaeraow, some kind of elven insult which means shadow face, traitor, or some other stuff like that.

In any case, this has nothing to do with an allegiance to Lolth. When Lolth did her thing, no mortal elf (of any kind) supported her. It was all among deities, and so she was banished into the Abyss. Vhaeraun was exiled; Eilistraee had foreseen a time when the dark elves would have been alone and in need of her, so she chose to give up the safety and luxury of Arvandor to be with them (she would wander on Toril, among the dark elves). The Ilythiiri didn't worship Lolth either; they followerd Vhaeraun, Ghaunadaur, and even Eilistraee. In Evermeet, we see that she personally fought Ghaunadaur and Vhaeraun's influence on the Ilythiiri, but she was alone and wasn't ultimately able to succeed. Nonetheless, a bit later, she would become patroness of a whole nation of dark/green elves: Miyeritar. As you know, Lolth chilled in the Abyss for a while and her attentiuon was drawn to Toril only when Kethrylla Amarillis chased a demon into the Demonweb pits to rescue her lover and then returned to Toril. She began sneaking into Ilythiir but Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur were the main faiths, as I said. Lolth started to get some prominence only after the First Sundering decimated Vhaeraun's followers in Ilythiir (around -17700 IIRC), and she only started to be an actual religion when some among the nobles of Ilythiir, including the ruling clan, started worshiping her during the seconde crown war (-11500 DR), when Lolth sends a balor in repsonse to their request of help. Even then, while it was only the nobles and rulers who were "corrupted", in -10k Corellon still banished all the dark elves (even the few Eilistraeen survivors in Miyeritar, genocided by the sun elves of Aryvandaar with the Dark Disaster in -10500DR).

Q6, from Evermeet: Island of Elves, we see that the elves didn't live in Arvandor, but in many primes. Faerie was one of them.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 01 Sep 2019 18:24:54
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1363 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2019 :  18:12:50  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Q1 has a canonical answer, though is for 4e Dawn War lore. According to Dragon 408, Corellon and Gruumsh are siblings, the children of an ancient deity of magic and prophecy, who foresaw the mentioned Dawn War and the role its children would have in it. So, this unnamed deity sacrificed its own life to create Corellon and Gruumsh.

This myth seems to be apocryphal, however. According to the eladrin guy who narrates it, neither the elves or the orcs would suffer it, and usually those that spread it end up dead by orc blade or elven arrows.

Q2 has an alternative answer as well. According to some Realms sources, the elves may have been created by the Fey creator race. Or at least, it's highly implied in Grand History of the Realms.

As for the whole Arvandor/Feywild (Faerie) thing, according to Mordenkainen, while the elves originated in Arvandor, they were exiled to the Feywild after Lolth's betrayal. As Irennan pointed out, the canon is shaky here.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3054 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2019 :  18:23:59  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Does the ancient deity who birthed Corellon and Gruumsh have a name in 4e?

As for Mord's, his version runs contrary to all FR lore. For example, in Evermeet, elves live on various primes even before Lolth's betrayal. That said, it's indeed *his* version.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 01 Sep 2019 18:25:10
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1363 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2019 :  18:51:52  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Does the ancient deity who birthed Corellon and Gruumsh have a name in 4e?



Nope. This myth it's so ancient that details such as the name or the gender of this deity are forgotten. The vistani guy who narrates this story (who is an eladrin elf, as well) only knows that it was a deity of magic and prophecy.

If you can get the magazine, I recommend you to give it a try. It's a good read, and IIRC, it has some input from Markustay as well (I remember he said that the whole idea of Corellon and Gruumsh being siblings was a suggestion he made to the article's author).

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3054 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2019 :  19:09:20  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I agree that it sounds like an interesting spin on their story. I'll see if I can get the article; thank you.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5553 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2019 :  19:18:43  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Or perhaps, to switch things around, the elves existed (on other worlds) the whole time and created the Seldarine and their other gods by virtue of their prayers and faith. After all, no one ever talks about a deific creation myth for humans ...

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1363 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2019 :  19:27:35  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Or perhaps, to switch things around, the elves existed (on other worlds) the whole time and created the Seldarine and their other gods by virtue of their prayers and faith. After all, no one ever talks about a deific creation myth for humans ...

-- George Krashos



There is one in 4e as well. I like it, because it presents a less perfect vision of humanity than the other D&D editions.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8207 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2019 :  03:11:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So Corellon started in Ysgard? Frey is known to be the lord of Alfheim. Wonder what his involvement is.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe

Germany
547 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2019 :  08:10:54  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by billbisco
Q5: The Ilythiiri elves are a tribe of green elves (wild elves). They're not drow right? So how are they associated with Lolth who apparently already had dark skin when green (wild) elves don't?


At some point Lolth (with the help of other demons) corrupted the Ilythiiri and became their main godess.

quote:
Originally posted by billbisco
Q8: So Lolth was banished in -30,000 DR and the dark elves were cursed to become drow in -10,000 DR. That's a 20,000 year differential. Why did this take so long?


I don't get the question. Lolth getting banished had nothing to do with the dark elves or drow and she only learned about them much later.
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1856 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2019 :  16:37:27  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Q7: At what point did Ilythiir cease being a green elf nation and become a "dark elf" nation?

Looks like it always was? But also, this.

As to the chicken-and-egg matters with gods...
Q9: Did one elf/orc come into being per each drop of divine blood spilled, or was it some other ratio?
It's a myth, I tell you!

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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billbisco
Acolyte

USA
5 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2019 :  05:11:18  Show Profile Send billbisco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you all for your replies. I've learned a lot!
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