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 Hunabar crest - Waterdeep Nobles
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jamesewelch
Seeker

55 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2019 :  22:37:21  Show Profile Send jamesewelch a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
In the Who's Who in Waterdeep book, the crest for the Hunabar family has "reins" on their crest. However, I have no idea what the drawing is. Is that 2 cords tied into a knot? Or cords tied around a yoke? Can anyone make out what that graphic is suppose to be?

AJA
Learned Scribe

USA
261 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2019 :  23:37:28  Show Profile Send AJA a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I've always assumed it was reins around a bridle bit. But looking closer at the loops there that really does seems awkward, even in a stylized representation. And there is no seperate color given for a "bit" or "yoke."

I dunno? (but looking it up did once again remind me that it's HOON-abar, not HUNN-abar like I keep defaulting to, so thank you for that)


AJA
YAFRP
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1428 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2019 :  05:02:55  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OK, so I just went ahead and asked the Old Sage, and here is what he said:

===

Those are two reins (big ones, drovers' reins for guiding a large wagon, which along the Sword Coast are VERY long, of tanned leather, and one of the two reins flares in width part way along its run like many real-world mens' neckties, so it can readily be distinguished from the other rein when being rigged over a large wagon and possibly several pairs of restive oxen, large horses, or even rothe). The reins come onto the shield (from the drover's end), in parallel, from the viewer's lower left, and the upper one curves over itself at the point where it flares, and is encircled by the lower rein at that point, before running off the shield (towards the beasts) at the lower right, whereas the lower rein vanishes behind it and is not depicted (like many, many things in heraldry, it's a simplified, stylized representation rather than a realistic and fully-depicted portrait). This configuration of reins (known as "choking" because of the tight encirclement and because it shortens the "free" run of one rein) depicts control (of the beasts, by the drover, and therefore of the wagon). So the blazon (it's not a "crest" to a herald!) of the Hunabars means they're always in control of their trading, even at night (represented by the star).
Many noble houses have heraldry with convoluted meanings like this worked into them (for example, House Hiilgauntlet on the same page: the fire represents victorious mercenaries torching a foe's stronghold, and the chain represents both military outfitting, and control, for a noble family that made its fortune as mercenaries and by supplying gear to armies).

===

Hope that helps. :-)

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8139 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2019 :  12:40:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
you know, every time I've looked at that, I've seen "textiles", "trade", and "importing fashions" as a main family concern and thought that was a knitting needle and thread. Basically I pictured the family as the "Armani" of Waterdeep (though I'll note I've never used them or noted any particular family member).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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jamesewelch
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55 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2019 :  13:22:23  Show Profile Send jamesewelch a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"lower rein vanishes behind it and is not depicted" - That's the part that was confusing me. I think it's the only shield in the book with something that vanishes, all of the other shields show (for most part) exactly what it says in the description.

Ok, so I've learned a few things.

1) A "blazon" is (only) the description-words in a formal declaration (specific syntax, formatting, etc.).
2) The "crest" is just one part of the symbol (top center, above shield).

So only 1 last question:

For the rein that "vanishes" would that one go back to the driver or towards the animals/beasts?



This is basically how I see it (assuming the vanishing rein goes to beasts):

https://i.imgur.com/I6EeUod.png

Does that look right?

thanks

Edited by - jamesewelch on 01 Aug 2019 14:17:43
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ElfBane
Seeker

USA
70 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2019 :  22:56:10  Show Profile Send ElfBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Heraldry has many mansions. I am a modestly accomplished amateur herald. In 34 years of futzing around with heraldry, I have NEVER seen reins depicted on an achievement. A casual aficionado herald would probably say, "why, what is this charge?! It appears to be ""2 chevronels knotted"" on a field Or". Plus it breaks the 'Tincture Rule', in that the charge(the reins) don't have the proper contrast with the Field.
Also, how would a drover ever have acquired enough wealth or prestige to be granted an Achievement of Arms?

Edited by - ElfBane on 02 Aug 2019 11:29:42
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AJA
Learned Scribe

USA
261 Posts

Posted - 02 Aug 2019 :  14:07:54  Show Profile Send AJA a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane
how would a drover ever have acquired enough wealth or prestige to granted an Achievement of Arms?

Calling the Hunabars "a drover" is kind of like calling Bill Gates "an electronics salesman." Ed wrote on the process of becoming a noble in Waterdeep here in Candlekeep; it was also re-printed in Power of Faerūn (tl;dr: long ago the oldest [and richest] merchant families just sat down and titled themselves; most everyone after that just bought their way in).


Also, Ed has been quite clear numerous times in the past that Realmsian heraldry does not slavishly follow Real World standards. Here are two examples I have at hand, but there are others;
quote:
Originally posted by Ed's old "Heraldry of the Dales"
The important thing to remember is that real-world heraldry was very untidy and inconsistent (still is, in many ways), and coherent rules came along late in the game...so if you consider Realms heraldry to be like 'old' real-world heraldry, with local heralds memorizing everyone's charges but the only 'hard' rule really being no duplication of arms within the same realm, and no use of royal arms by anyone unauthorized, anywhere, you've got it. Those who really want to follow established real-world blazonry are reminded that America ignores most of the European rules anyway, and that in both main systems, corporations are allowed to break almost all the rules if they pay enough :} (just like the Realms! :})....hope this helps.

quote:
Originally posted by Power of Faerūn, p.102
Notable exceptions [to the "classic" rules of real-world British heraldry] include Waterdeep, which breaks the heraldic rule of "no metal on metal"



AJA
YAFRP
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ElfBane
Seeker

USA
70 Posts

Posted - 02 Aug 2019 :  14:30:14  Show Profile Send ElfBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I figured something of the sort. It's quite common in RW heraldry for wealthy merchants to have arms. Especially if they can also function as trademarks.

I shouldn't have brought up tincture... it's rather common for the rule to be violated, unless of course, you NEED contrast such as in a battlefield situation.
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1428 Posts

Posted - 02 Aug 2019 :  20:33:54  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's a bit more from the Man Behind the Beard:

===
Yes, you've depicted it perfectly; the rein does indeed go back to the beasts.
And yes re. blazon and crest definitions. In the Realms, "blazon" is almost exclusively used instead of "grant of arms" (used more in modern pay-for-this-emblem heraldry), "blazon" being the herald's cant for a grant of arms. Crests (literally, something stuck on the top of a helm, like feathers) are rarely used in the Realms except as part of a blazon (i.e. helms in various positions, to denote noble rank), but "badges" (a simplified logo derived from the blazon) are used a lot on surcoats, tabards, the doors of coaches, etc. to denote "I belong to this armigerous individual" (i.e. guards or servants or horses "in livery").
I LOVe heraldry, but I realize many folks just find it a confusing, complicated pain. ;}
===

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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