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 Was Iakhovas a Primordial?
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
567 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2019 :  01:35:02  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
It seems like the shoe could fit, no? If not, where exactly on the power meter and origin does he lie? I know he’s been discussed before in these scrolls but I don’t think he has been since the introduction of Primordials and the discovery of the twin world of Abeir.

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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1339 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2019 :  15:56:48  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Iakhovas is not mentioned in any 4e sources, so there's no official answer for this. He does fit perfectly as a primordial, though, I'll consider him one.

He should be on the same level of minor primordials, such as Borem of the Mud.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8060 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2019 :  22:06:19  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seethyr,

It's amazing how many times we're coming to similar conclusions

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21215
read that thread from a couple years back

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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BrennonGoldeye
Seeker

38 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2019 :  17:21:00  Show Profile Send BrennonGoldeye a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Looking into the GHotR I'm going to have to say no. He was mortal, just an incredibly powerful WereMegaladon with access to massive amounts of magic. He was also active and running around on Toril before the First Sundering which would tend to suggest he was not a Primordial. Add that he apparently became Umberlee's Chosen. He is referred to as mortal but unique in the legends about him. Paragon would be my best guess since he didn't seem to age at any discernible rate.Stack "Chosen" on that and he would be Demigod level power easy peasy.


Sam

Edited by - BrennonGoldeye on 08 Jul 2019 22:12:21
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8060 Posts

Posted - 09 Jul 2019 :  16:39:19  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye

Looking into the GHotR I'm going to have to say no. He was mortal, just an incredibly powerful WereMegaladon with access to massive amounts of magic. He was also active and running around on Toril before the First Sundering which would tend to suggest he was not a Primordial. Add that he apparently became Umberlee's Chosen. He is referred to as mortal but unique in the legends about him. Paragon would be my best guess since he didn't seem to age at any discernible rate.Stack "Chosen" on that and he would be Demigod level power easy peasy.


Sam



So, running around on Toril before the First Sundering. That can mean he was a primordial. Bearing in mind, we're talking about all the sources having been from PRIOR to their even being a definition of primordial. If he disappeared from Toril sometime after the first sundering, and he suddenly appears for some reason JUST before the second sundering.... and he initiates a volcanic explosion of the ship of the gods... a place sacred to a "god of the earth" of the mulan pantheon... which disappears during the spellplague along with a lot of other surrounding areas involvling the mulan pantheon....

Why exactly did he suddenly show up again? Did his actions somehow "destabilize" the area? Since another "god of the earth" was heavily involved with "bringing the portions of Toril back" during the second sundering... does this open up some opportunities to tweak the "story" we've been told in much more believable ways?

Him being a chosen of Umberlee.... well, the idea that Umberlee COULD actually be a primordial as well when you look at it isn't out of the picture. Talos, Umberlee, Auril.... all these "gods" have some resemblance to primordial powers.



Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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BrennonGoldeye
Seeker

38 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2019 :  19:17:19  Show Profile Send BrennonGoldeye a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye

Looking into the GHotR I'm going to have to say no. He was mortal, just an incredibly powerful WereMegaladon with access to massive amounts of magic. He was also active and running around on Toril before the First Sundering which would tend to suggest he was not a Primordial. Add that he apparently became Umberlee's Chosen. He is referred to as mortal but unique in the legends about him. Paragon would be my best guess since he didn't seem to age at any discernible rate.Stack "Chosen" on that and he would be Demigod level power easy peasy.


Sam




Him being a chosen of Umberlee.... well, the idea that Umberlee COULD actually be a primordial as well when you look at it isn't out of the picture. Talos, Umberlee, Auril.... all these "gods" have some resemblance to primordial powers.






Hmm, good points, and really good story lines. I would still call Auril a Goddess since she has been around since 1E, but Talos and Umberlee could be in the same class as Ubtao. I like that alot better than Talos being an Aspect of Grumsh, and marginally better than him being a pissed off Aspect of Odin.

Sam
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8060 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2019 :  22:35:09  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just to point out on the Talos part as well.... a lot of primordials are linked to volcanos... I don't believe this answer we have that "all gods were in Abeir and all primordials were in Abeir".... I can buy the idea though that maybe Abeir had no gods prior to the spellplague. One thing to recall here is that that "rule" was something that mortals "discovered" for themselves by piecing together lore from the people of Abeir. Nothing says they were correct.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1339 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2019 :  01:16:21  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, a lot of primordials are linked to volcanoes because all primordials are forces of nature. But that doesn't mean that all of them must to be linked to volcanoes. Primordials can be (and are) linked to other types of natural catastrophes. There is even a primordial linked to the "void of space".

As for Iokhovas being a servant of Auril, there is no problem there. Core 4e have examples of primordials serving gods. They lost their war, after all. I can see a few who pledged their services to the gods in exchange for their lives.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8060 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2019 :  02:28:32  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, a lot of primordials are linked to volcanoes because all primordials are forces of nature. But that doesn't mean that all of them must to be linked to volcanoes. Primordials can be (and are) linked to other types of natural catastrophes. There is even a primordial linked to the "void of space".

As for Iokhovas being a servant of Auril, there is no problem there. Core 4e have examples of primordials serving gods. They lost their war, after all. I can see a few who pledged their services to the gods in exchange for their lives.



Oh, the reason I mentioned it is that Talos is particularly noted as linked to volcanos as well, so he's a lot like a lot of other primordials in that perspective as well. One of his main temples is near the Vilhon area in some volcano (even though he's portrayed in a lot of stuff as more of a sky god). I should have stated that to make it more clear.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3609 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2019 :  14:07:34  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A lot of this Iakhovas talk has got me wondering, would he work well as a Warlock pact? In 4th edition, this really makes me think he works well as a Vestige Pact while in 5th edition, maybe the Great Old One with some changes to their associated spells?

Now I wanna do a Wereshark character, lol

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32146 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2019 :  17:32:17  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

A lot of this Iakhovas talk has got me wondering, would he work well as a Warlock pact? In 4th edition, this really makes me think he works well as a Vestige Pact while in 5th edition, maybe the Great Old One with some changes to their associated spells?

Now I wanna do a Wereshark character, lol



I don't really care for warlocks, myself... But I see no reason why Iakhovas can't serve as a patron, assuming he's got some sort of divinity/more than mortal shtick going on.

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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3609 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2019 :  02:54:28  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

A lot of this Iakhovas talk has got me wondering, would he work well as a Warlock pact? In 4th edition, this really makes me think he works well as a Vestige Pact while in 5th edition, maybe the Great Old One with some changes to their associated spells?

Now I wanna do a Wereshark character, lol



I don't really care for warlocks, myself... But I see no reason why Iakhovas can't serve as a patron, assuming he's got some sort of divinity/more than mortal shtick going on.



Regarding Warlocks as a class, I feel they did a much better job putting effort and concepts into the class post-3e that really diverge it from your other normal casters like Sorcerers and Wizards. The whole pact ideal is better, IMO, than what we had in 3.5 (a weird at-will casting guy with magic shot-gun).

With that said, if Iakhovas is/was/can-be a Primordial then it stands to server that it's possible he has a divinity within himself to be able to grant certain powers and spells. At least, that would be my interpretation via the rules of the last two editions. Heck I'd be fine with clerics of 4E and 5E even possible speaking of him as a divine being.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Green Giant
Seeker

USA
57 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2019 :  16:35:39  Show Profile Send Green Giant a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I actually statted out Iakhovas in 3.5e as an Elder Evil in the Realms NPC Characters thread in the old WotC forums. I used the Elder Evils handbook as a guideline and made him a nawidnehr (sharkwere from Monstrous Arcana: Sea Devils).
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3609 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2019 :  06:14:54  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Green Giant

I actually statted out Iakhovas in 3.5e as an Elder Evil in the Realms NPC Characters thread in the old WotC forums. I used the Elder Evils handbook as a guideline and made him a nawidnehr (sharkwere from Monstrous Arcana: Sea Devils).



I was always sort of confused with the whole Elder Evil aspect of 3.5 and later editions. Especially in how people could somehow make Pacts with such entities? For example, there are multiple interloper stars into Realmspace such as Acamar or Caphion. How would you even conjure or make a connection with such a thing for it to grant spells and powers?


4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8060 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2019 :  17:36:40  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

A lot of this Iakhovas talk has got me wondering, would he work well as a Warlock pact? In 4th edition, this really makes me think he works well as a Vestige Pact while in 5th edition, maybe the Great Old One with some changes to their associated spells?

Now I wanna do a Wereshark character, lol



I like this idea. One of the things I'd proposed a while back is the idea that warlocks/pact magic users are in practice a very basic form of divine magic user. By that I mean that its easier to provide the power for a person who specifically gets into a contract with a supernatural being and who provides service in return for power. Religions meanwhile hate pact magic users for the most part. I see this because beings may start OUT providing pacts until they are powerful enough to "establish" something that allows them to have clerics. Once they can establish clerics, they no longer want to create warlocks/pact magic users, because they're basically less efficient.


From this perspective, "gods" would thus see warlock patrons as up and coming threats to their own power. To just show what I'm portraying, eventually Iakhovas might eventually gain "divinity" and be able to provide clerics. At that point, he could be a threat to the churches of Malar and Umberlee both, by essentially drawing away worshippers. Thus, these gods may seek to establish "controls" in place such that a being such as Iakhovas is forced to submit to them. Thus, they might aid such beings becoming divine in return that a portion of said being's divine worship is "tithed" to the god which supported them. From the perspective of already existing divine beings, this might be why gods like the red knight, Torm, etc... are seen as servants of other divine beings. It could also be why beings like Talos were raising up lesser divinities like Malyk and Velsharoon the vaunted (and in my homebrew realms, Velsharoon has a portfolio which encourages the study of pact magic and the strange arts of the archivist divine caster... as does Deneir have an interest in the "glyph magic" of pact magic users and the strange "text based" art of the archivist).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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