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 Drow are the new battle fodder
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Dalor Darden
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USA
3695 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2019 :  18:59:24  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
In the 5e Monster Manual, a Drow warrior (common warrior, not elite) is only a Challenge 1/4; yet a Goblin is the same!

An Orc is a Challenge 1/2 rating.

I'm really not getting the idea I guess. I understand the elite drow could run around killing orcs for a while with no worries...but how the hells do drow now hold all those slaves when a common goblin is the supposed equal of the common drow?

Have the novels made drow seem so very easily killed that the designers are going with that...???

AD&D for me!

WalkerNinja
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USA
564 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2019 :  19:20:43  Show Profile Send WalkerNinja a Private Message  Reply with Quote
FWIW--I don't play 5E, but if I had to guess...

These seem like base type races that you can add classes to. Basic drow elves *should* be more frail than basic orcs.

*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011
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Dalor Darden
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USA
3695 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2019 :  20:38:14  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja

FWIW--I don't play 5E, but if I had to guess...

These seem like base type races that you can add classes to. Basic drow elves *should* be more frail than basic orcs.



"Basic" drow used to be 2nd level fighters with 50% magic resistance, poison and magical spells...so now a goblin can whoop their arse if the dice go the right way.

Oh the times, how they are a'changin'

AD&D for me!
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Hoondatha
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USA
2431 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2019 :  21:41:12  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow, I hadn't seen that. You're right. It makes no sense. Unless you're supposed to automatically slap fighter levels on them to match whatever your party is, but I thought 5e was trying to get away from that kind of 3e thing.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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Ayrik
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Canada
6752 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2019 :  21:43:02  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Drow and elves are supposed to beat their opponents in subtle, clever, and treacherous ways. Toe-to-toe battlefields just aren't their thing so no surprise that goblins could fight just as well when things get muddy and bloody.

If you make drow into potent battlefield units then you'll get DMs automatically deploying drow as potent battlefield units.
But if you make drow into fragile, costly, and specialized adversaries then you'll get DMs reluctant to spend drow lives as canon fodder - drow will have to be deployed sparingly and in more clever ways (like assassins or like Batman) if you don't want to dilute their fearsome reputations.

[/Ayrik]
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sleyvas
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Posted - 15 Mar 2019 :  22:12:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I once again agree with Dalor. Your everyday dark elf has still had YEARS to be trained in the use of weapons. Your everyday orc adult is all of like 12 years old or something. Dark elves are pricks, but they WILL train their young in combat before they become adults. Regular elves may focus more on other arts, but dark elves WILL teach combat or some other means to defend themselves. The average dark elf should be able to dominate an orc, hobgoblin, goblin, kobold, on a regular battlefield and even possibly an ogre if he catches it unawares. They should also be reluctant to enter a battle IF they can instead send minions to soften an enemy first or distract them so that they can get the drop.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Dalor Darden
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USA
3695 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2019 :  22:29:18  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I'm basically going to make every single Drow an Elite Warrior and call it a day. lol

AD&D for me!
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moonbeast
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USA
501 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2019 :  03:25:46  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Oh the times, how they are a'changin'



The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind.

The answer is blowin' in the wind.
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Hoondatha
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2431 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2019 :  13:06:19  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Basically all the drow you encounter are like the living people in the Dark Sun campaign world (where everyone started at 3rd level): you only see them because they're strong and skilled enough not to have been killed off already.

Preaching to the choir on this board, probably. But I appreciate Dalor flagging the problem. If I ever run 5e drow, I won't be surprised that I have to modify them.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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Ayrik
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Canada
6752 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2019 :  16:13:17  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We are talking about "basic" drow ... the equivalent of 0-level humans ... untrained, unskilled, unspecialized, no class, no nothing beyond the most common and essential abilities. Drow can't all be competent fighters, proficient magic users, and masterful Machiavellian manipulators - many might be but I think most probably aren't, simply because it would otherwise be impossible for the many to be exploited by the few. They did start off as elves, after all, delicate and graceful fey creatures instead of sturdy and robust goblinoid creatures.

[/Ayrik]
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sleyvas
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Posted - 16 Mar 2019 :  18:37:43  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

We are talking about "basic" drow ... the equivalent of 0-level humans ... untrained, unskilled, unspecialized, no class, no nothing beyond the most common and essential abilities. Drow can't all be competent fighters, proficient magic users, and masterful Machiavellian manipulators - many might be but I think most probably aren't, simply because it would otherwise be impossible for the many to be exploited by the few. They did start off as elves, after all, delicate and graceful fey creatures instead of sturdy and robust goblinoid creatures.



The difference between it and an orc/goblinoid though. They're also raised in a dangerous environment, in which they're ALL trained for combat starting at a young age. Orcs and goblinoids might be maybe 12 years old or so before being considered adults (might be 14, might be earlier dependent on race). Usually they're also scrabbling for food and malnourished. Meanwhile, that dark elf takes somewhere around 100 years to grow to maturity, during which maybe 30 or 40 years are spent in martial training (and most likely spent where they actually challenge captured orcs and goblinoids as part of training before they're considered adults.... which probably weeds out the weaker drow). Even a drow merchant is still trained in defense and the combat arts. They can't risk slaves overthrowing their caravans or other underdark risks, so everyone has to pull their weight. Its kind of why they have so little respect for surface worlders.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Cards77
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USA
638 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2019 :  18:57:28  Show Profile Send Cards77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just more watering down and dumbing down for players who can only relate to video games.
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe

110 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2019 :  19:23:52  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
2e drow warriors (the ones PCs would face at least) were mighty fearsome combatants, far tougher than your average human or orc warrior. Does it make sense that a drow warrior is so much better than an orc warrior? No, but THAT is the drow warrior I've come to know.

Those 1/4 CR drow in the MM? Those are the stats for untrained drow commoners.
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Ayrik
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Posted - 16 Mar 2019 :  23:15:48  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How did my precious gith races fare in the transition to 5E?

[/Ayrik]
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Dargoth
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Australia
4606 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2019 :  01:49:49  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

How did my precious gith races fare in the transition to 5E?


Well their a player races in 5e

and in Ms Tome of Foes Neither of the Gith race stats are below level 10 for the various varients

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Emperor Sigismund

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Edited by - Dargoth on 17 Mar 2019 01:53:34
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sleyvas
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USA
7853 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2019 :  10:14:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
speaking of the gith... what exactly do we know of the githvyrik besides what I read on the FR Wiki (by that, I know of Vhostym/"the Sojourner" … though my memory of him is admittedly weak). Do we have any real details on them?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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LordofBones
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861 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2019 :  10:26:10  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess it's sort of like the yugoloths going from the NE fiendish exemplars to whatever the hell they are now.

Anthraxus must be sitting next to Primus at the hobo seats, musing wistfully on better days.
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Ayrik
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Canada
6752 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2019 :  17:59:32  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
what exactly do we know of the githvyrik besides what I read on the FR Wiki (by that, I know of Vhostym/"the Sojourner" … though my memory of him is admittedly weak). Do we have any real details on them?
I think the only "real" details we know about the githvyrik were discussed in this dusty old scroll. Vhostym the Sojourner is (thus far) assumed to be unique, apparently the last survivor of a racial offshoot/variant which once followed a different path than the Githyanki or the Githzerai.

Sad to see my giths nerfed in 5E. Though not unhappy that they're not as nerfed as wimpy drow.

I'm guessing we just gotta get with the times. Drow have lost the magnificently competent prowess they once had in Realmslore, they've become yet another playable demi-race option of fairly ordinary consequence.

[/Ayrik]
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 17 Mar 2019 :  21:17:40  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

quote:
what exactly do we know of the githvyrik besides what I read on the FR Wiki (by that, I know of Vhostym/"the Sojourner" … though my memory of him is admittedly weak). Do we have any real details on them?
I think the only "real" details we know about the githvyrik were discussed in this dusty old scroll. Vhostym the Sojourner is (thus far) assumed to be unique, apparently the last survivor of a racial offshoot/variant which once followed a different path than the Githyanki or the Githzerai.

Sad to see my giths nerfed in 5E. Though not unhappy that they're not as nerfed as wimpy drow.

I'm guessing we just gotta get with the times. Drow have lost the magnificently competent prowess they once had in Realmslore, they've become yet another playable demi-race option of fairly ordinary consequence.



Hmmm, so the githvyrik weren't intended to be a rogue tribe, but rather rogue individuals. Ok, good to know.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 18 Mar 2019 :  07:14:43  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally the idea was that there were no "common" drow. All of the drow you met were the survivors of dozens to hundreds of years of political infighting and training that honed them all into deadly weapons. If that is no longer the case then something's been lost in translation again.
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 18 Mar 2019 :  08:06:19  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think when it comes to 5e the saying should be that something was lost in conception because they evidently never look at the old stuff to translate it

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Diffan
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Posted - 19 Mar 2019 :  15:29:00  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Drow weren't scary in 3.5 either though, with Drow warriors at a whopping 4 hit points. Goblins had more HP than them, lol.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 19 Mar 2019 :  15:45:41  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

Drow weren't scary in 3.5 either though, with Drow warriors at a whopping 4 hit points. Goblins had more HP than them, lol.



True...very true.

I wonder if people who are new to all of this read the novels; then look at the monster stats of 5e and wonder "What the hells?"

AD&D for me!
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Diffan
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Posted - 19 Mar 2019 :  21:17:50  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

Drow weren't scary in 3.5 either though, with Drow warriors at a whopping 4 hit points. Goblins had more HP than them, lol.



True...very true.

I wonder if people who are new to all of this read the novels; then look at the monster stats of 5e and wonder "What the hells?"




Eh, I dunno? I've read the novels and what I surmise is that the novels depict drow of several levels of experience, power, and guile compared to your "common" drow found in more plethora at home. A drow raiding party is probably going to consist of stronger, more elite members with arcane and divine support. I personally wouldn't use the Drow stat-block in either the 3.5e Monster Manual or the 5e one, at least not during a surface raid encounter. For one where the PCs are delving into the Underdark and come across some house drow people, sure thing. It's what I believe these books are trying to accomplish.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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