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Celephais
Acolyte

USA
9 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2019 :  21:24:44  Show Profile Send Celephais a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hi, guys. I know I'm an infrequent poster but I really love this website. I have another dumb question. The next leg of my campaign will be in Thay and I've come across the term "tharch" a number of times. Is that "ch" on the end hard or soft?

Death's so quick but it can last so long.

roninshadow
Seeker

Australia
15 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2019 :  23:13:20  Show Profile Send roninshadow a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thay was divided into 11 tharchs, each ruled by a separate tharchion. these are states or reigns in thay
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31913 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2019 :  03:08:15  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Celephais

Hi, guys. I know I'm an infrequent poster but I really love this website. I have another dumb question. The next leg of my campaign will be in Thay and I've come across the term "tharch" a number of times. Is that "ch" on the end hard or soft?



My entirely unofficial take is that tharch rhymes with march.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7853 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2019 :  15:16:26  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Based on how its spelled with other things, I've always assumed the ch is a K sound, like in oligarch or hierarch, both of which are "government" words. For instance, a plural of arch is arches, and when I add an S sound to march its marches. But more than one tharch is tharchs. Tharchion also for instance sounds more correct to my ear with a K sound than a soft ch. It evokes more of a "power" feel to me. Similar to how Zulkir has that sharp K sound in it.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2082 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2019 :  17:20:32  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is tricky. The reason originally comes from Dreams of the Red Wizards.

'' A Tharchion or Autharch is a leader of the bureaucracy and the equivalent of a civil servant. They are the working nobility. They are referred to as "Lord" or "Lady" or "Your Eminence." ''

My conclusions all start with the assumption that both words share a common pronunciation. This section, in addition to the reasons he mentions, suggests Sleyvas' reading as correct; "autharch" is clearly a modification of autarch that has the hard k sound at the end (ōtärk).

The next paragraph threw me for a loop though and turned this on its head:

'' ...Higher ranking nobles (the Tharchions and Autharches) rarely bother with such formal titles when talking to lower-ranking nobles.''

This has the "es" plural form that Sleyvas mentioned, suggesting that it does have the "CH" (ōtärCH).

For this reason, I think the answer lies somewhere in between. For those of you familiar with Slavic languages, you'll be familiar with the idea that there are multiple pronunciations of the CH sound: c with an accent; and c with an inverted carrot. (sorry - I cannot type the language specific accents here). Finding examples of the difference in English only leads to confusion because we don't have the second sound in any word. Also - it varies in the different languages - being a kind of hard CH in Serbian and almost a T sound in Croatian.

I digress.

Basically, my conclusion is that in the words tharchion and autharch it has BOTH the hard K and the soft ch - or really - a K with a glottal CH on it. This would account for the various spellings noted above.

I'm guessing this will only be more confusing than before I started, but I tried

Edited by - The Masked Mage on 22 Feb 2019 17:24:46
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6752 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2019 :  22:32:02  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think "Tharchion" should rhyme with "march-ion".

With a soft "ch" you'd get something more like "Tharshion" (rhyming with "martian") ... which doesn't seem consistent with other examples of Thayan language, nor of the Mulhorandi language from which it derives. Although Rashemi language does seem more sibilant ... and it's partly influenced by elven, I think ... so if it's had much influence on Thayan then "Tharshion" could be possible. Perhaps Thayan accents and dialects vary across Thay (and surround regions) - Red Wizards have magical communications and itinerant travellers/traders are always everywhere, they'd speak a uniform language - but the vast majority of peoples and populations in Thay will hardly wander (or even dare to wander) farther than the neighbouring villages, they'd end up diverging into all sorts of regional dialects.

[/Ayrik]
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2082 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2019 :  09:42:32  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I think "Tharchion" should rhyme with "march-ion".

With a soft "ch" you'd get something more like "Tharshion" (rhyming with "martian") ...




Not sure if you were responding to me, but what I was suggesting was a hard K and soft ch - so Kch... the ch more of a throat sound after the k then a pronounced ch. So hard to explain
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31913 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2019 :  15:27:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My understanding is that a soft ch is what you have in the words march or starch. A hard ch is the k sound like alchemy or anchor.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6752 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2019 :  18:04:02  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

"A Tharchion or Autharch is a leader ..." etc

"Tharkion" and "Tharchion" and "Tharshion" all make sense if the title is a variation of autarch, although "Tharkion" will likely be more common if Thayan has anything in common with English (and Greek, and Germanic, and Latin), lol.

[/Ayrik]
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