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Valen
Acolyte

USA
9 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2019 :  20:42:09  Show Profile Send Valen a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hi all!

I'm new to Candlekeep, but have been reading lots of forums since I found you all. I have a question, as a lover of all things elvish, about mythals. Is it possible to create new mythals? I'm been searching other threads to try for a little insight, but I'm not finding what I'm looking for. I've been in love with the Realms for ages, but I'm only getting back into playing and am thinking about tinkering with a little fan fiction just for fun. I'd appreciate any insight that those of you who are more learned that I might have to give.

Thanks in advance!

Edited by - Valen on 17 Jan 2019 20:42:37

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4533 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2019 :  21:15:24  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the original idea of mythal is that they were a lost art of the elves, now long forgotten. The ruins that possessed mythal served as adventuring sites that would serve to warp the normal rules of magic that players would be used to.

In 2e that idea held true and mythal could not be created by any but the most powerful and ancient of individuals, and they would be unlikely to cooperate on such a risky and costly project (mythal creation tends to kill the creators).

3e started twisting many of Eds creations and misusing them, making portal creation, mythallar, enclaves, etc as common as muck. Indeed a mythal was created at the end of 3e to found the city of hope in the high moor.

In 4e and 5e I've no idea where mythal stand. I wouldn't be surprised to read of a magic wand that creates mythals like a pez dispenser gives out sweets.



If it's a story then you can do whatever you want. If it's for a game then I would have the creation be an endgame scenario for a campaign in which the pcs sacrifice themselves for the greater good.

But that's just my opinion.

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Valen
Acolyte

USA
9 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2019 :  21:49:28  Show Profile Send Valen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for that. I appreciate the insight!
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1817 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2019 :  03:38:29  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Valen

Is it possible to create new mythals? I'm been searching other threads to try for a little insight, but I'm not finding what I'm looking for.

FRwiki (currently) gives a decent summary. https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Mythal

It is possible to make a new one, but...
Wizardly ritual requires extremely rare level of competence in arcane magic to even plan, a small crowd of secondary and tertiary casters (able and willing to work together and sacrifice some of their lifeforce), and approval of the gods of magic (as any spell stronger than 9 level).
High Magic ritual requires a bunch of High Mages, who are kind of uncommon, though tertiary casters may be normal elven wizards.
Either way, the primary caster is likely to suffer total lifeforce drain - stop living and not even make it to the afterlife, but stick around indefinitely as a ghost in the machine mythal.
Which is a part of the problem, since wizards whose work is likely to be approved by the gods of magic are unlikely to take this lightly, while most High Mages already have Call of Arvandor playing in their ears non-stop, and stave it off only with dedication to "a job that needs to be done". Mythanthar was an unusual case in unusual circumstances.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

Edited by - TBeholder on 18 Jan 2019 03:39:58
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BrennonGoldeye
Seeker

33 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2019 :  22:28:06  Show Profile Send BrennonGoldeye a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison


3e started twisting many of Eds creations and misusing them, making portal creation, mythallar, enclaves, etc as common as muck. Indeed a mythal was created at the end of 3e to found the city of hope in the high moor.



Oh yeah, one new Mythal in 1000 years, thats common as muck.
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
625 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2019 :  01:59:26  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lost Empires of Faerun has the epic level info on creating mythals, see p. 44-50, but you need the Epic Level Handbook to make full use of this information.
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2127 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2019 :  10:07:18  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mythals are NOT a common creation as their costs are high and High Mages are few in number. That said, since the Weave is now repaired, I would assume there would be no reason why a Mythal could not be created. One would simply need to figure out how and gather the magical support to do the casting.

I myself have no problem with the creating of the high moor mythal - all the rest of it I had issues with... dozens of powerful NPCs who had been hiding or sleeping for centuries just to do this one thing that all these various gods wanted to do that basically accomplished nothing but eliminating one of the best NPCs in the Realms... not a fan of that choice.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6820 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2019 :  11:22:28  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
2E Ancient Empires indirectly stated that the creation of permanent mythals/mythallars involved 11th level spells. So lots of mythals across early Realms history because 1E Mystryl apparently didn't restrict spell levels.
But no more mythals after the Avatar Crisis (1358DR) brought 2E Mystra because she "changed the rules of magic" and only allowed up to 9th level (or sometimes 10th level) spells to be cast.
My understanding is that this maximum spell limit then persisted in later editions (with later Mystras).

(Not saying this is necessarily the real answer for the mythal question - because D&D rules/lore is never designed to be upward-compatible with future iterations of D&D rules/lore, lol - but a weak explanation is still better than no explanation at all if you seek to maintain continuity and reinforce self-consistency in your Realms.)

[/Ayrik]
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1817 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2019 :  12:27:55  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison


Indeed a mythal was created at the end of 3e to found the city of hope in the high moor.


quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I myself have no problem with the creating of the high moor mythal

I do: High Moors are the wasteland left by Dark Disaster.
Things like trolls, Dragonspear with its gates and the nice folk of Serpent Hills make it a dubious choice for a settlement, but those are mere berries on the terrible cake.
IMHO for most barbaric "proper" elves, let alone High Mages, the notion of settling or trying any grand magic in THAT place should be unthinkable, and invoke quiet icy horror if someone else tactlessly drops it within hearing.
Though maybe it could be eventually bargained down to as much as "fine, why won't we clean up the consequence of that mess for, oh, say, the next 4-5 centuries first?"
And if weren't... that's where the Weave was violated so thoroughly that >11 millennia (!) later... There are not only wild magic zones including at least one (but who can tell?) mobile and (unlike Ravens Bluff and Guardian's Tear "bubbles") actively attracted to spellcasting.
No, that's "rotten mythal" level stuff. High Moors got places where bubbles of swamp gas cause spontaneous fire conjurations. Or (in the Undermoor) rivers flow uphill.
It just looks weird to the point of complete OOC for a bunch of elves to go settle there, much less make a mythal.

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

2E Ancient Empires indirectly stated that the creation of permanent mythals/mythallars involved 11th level spells.

So mythals or mythallars? And what is "2E Ancient Empires"?
quote:
But no more mythals after the Avatar Crisis (1358DR) brought 2E Mystra because she "changed the rules of magic" and only allowed up to 9th level (or sometimes 10th level) spells to be cast.
Uh, ban above 10th level was set after Netheril's fall.
10th level became "only if allowed" at some time before ToT (out-of-'verse, the Avatar Crisis is AD&D to AD&D2, and there weren't 10th level spells published before, so...), but after Myth Drannor's fall.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

Edited by - TBeholder on 08 Jun 2019 13:44:31
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