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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1092 Posts

Posted - 10 Jan 2019 :  01:55:25  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hey folks!

I just released a product on the Dungeon Master’s Guild revising the Fifth Edition sorcerer to try and recapture some of the unique flavor the class had when it was first introduced in 3E. I also tried to make the class less of a limited wizard and more of its own class.

I’m also trying out something new, where I’m offering the initial product for just $2. As we collect feedback from readers, the book will be expanded with more player options, refined rules, more artwork, better layout, and an editing pass by an actual, honest-to-goodness, qualified editor.

Over time, the price of the book will increase as the length and quality go up, until we hit a final price point of $5.99. Since I’ll be updating the initial product, anyone that buys in at a given point will get the current version—and then automatically get every update for free.

If you’re interested, check out The Sorcerer and the Weave by clicking the link, and let me know what you think.

TL;DR: Buy my book!

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32072 Posts

Posted - 10 Jan 2019 :  14:48:23  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wasn't planning on getting this one... No disrespect intended; I've not bothered with anything based on 5E rules.

But then I saw this blurb, on the Fans of Ed Greenwood Facebook group:

quote:
Realms lore veteran (and pre-eminent expert on Cormyr) has something new offered at the DM's Guild that I highly recommend. Not just a really playable class, this release explains spellfire and silver fire and the Weave better than I've ever seen it set down in print before! So, ESSENTIAL Realmslore as well as fun for your gaming table...


That makes it more than just rules -- and that sounds quite intriguing. This is what sold it.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1092 Posts

Posted - 10 Jan 2019 :  16:00:41  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I wasn't planning on getting this one... No disrespect intended; I've not bothered with anything based on 5E rules.
No disrespect or offense taken! I am purposefully adding in Realmslore and world material to make the product worthwhile for folks that have no interest in the 5E rules. It is a rules supplement, without question, but that doesn't mean it's useless for fans of the Realms that just want a good chunk of lore.

Of course, not everyone's going to want to pay for it, or pay the asked price, and that's an individual decision. I'm not here to argue with or convince anyone, except to say that the book will go up in price over time, and people that buy in now will be pleasantly surprised at the value for money on their lore.
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3585 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2019 :  05:08:48  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

Hey folks!

I just released a product on the Dungeon Master’s Guild revising the Fifth Edition sorcerer to try and recapture some of the unique flavor the class had when it was first introduced in 3E.



Pardon my inquiry, but what unique flavor did it possesse in 3E? If I remember correctly the Sorcerer was added because they felt 1/3 if the entire PHB shouldn't be dedicated to one class (wizard) so they threw in the spontaneous caster to be different. I do think they sort of came into their own later one with the Bloodline feats (which blossomed into a stronger theme with Pathfinder and 4e) but....initially it was "wizard-lite".

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8008 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2019 :  13:16:26  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just wondering... the one thing I found in 5e that didn't work well was multiclass spellcasting, especially when mixing multiple spellcaster types. I see your stuff says this

Revised rules for multiclass spellcasting


Can you reveal some of what you were looking to do in that? If it sounds intriguing enough, I may be interested. For myself, I created these feats that for the most part just allowed a character to memorize/know more spells of a higher level in their other spellcasting class. The idea that you could have a mage-priest and have them be near or at full progression in one class and still able to cast some say 4th or 5th level spells in their other progression was where I was going. It was still going along with the 5e concept that you didn't get more spell slots, just more options of what you can use when you use those spell slots. I won't say its elegant or anything, but its relatively simple and I don't think game breaking, but I would like to hear other people's ideas as well. For instance, when I heard the concept someone had for exchanging hit die using blood magic, I got the idea of giving up daily hit dice for feats, etc...

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1092 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2019 :  15:22:42  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Just wondering... the one thing I found in 5e that didn't work well was multiclass spellcasting, especially when mixing multiple spellcaster types. I see your stuff says this

Revised rules for multiclass spellcasting


Can you reveal some of what you were looking to do in that? If it sounds intriguing enough, I may be interested. For myself, I created these feats that for the most part just allowed a character to memorize/know more spells of a higher level in their other spellcasting class. The idea that you could have a mage-priest and have them be near or at full progression in one class and still able to cast some say 4th or 5th level spells in their other progression was where I was going. It was still going along with the 5e concept that you didn't get more spell slots, just more options of what you can use when you use those spell slots. I won't say its elegant or anything, but its relatively simple and I don't think game breaking, but I would like to hear other people's ideas as well. For instance, when I heard the concept someone had for exchanging hit die using blood magic, I got the idea of giving up daily hit dice for feats, etc...
Right now, the core multiclassing rules use a fractional system that don't do the best job of reflecting how each class contributes to the character's total spellcasting ability (the problem is especially apparent with the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster archetypes). The current version does some stuff to streamline that calculation.

What you're describing in terms of the mage-priest might be better represented, in this case, by a limited multiclassing (say, "dipping the toe" into the cleric class for a level or two), and then having a feat that allows the sorcerer to swap out a sorcerer spell for a spell in the other class of the same or lower level. I am working on something like that, but it's for a later iteration of the book, since we need to nail the core design first.
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1092 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2019 :  15:38:23  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Pardon my inquiry, but what unique flavor did it possesse in 3E? If I remember correctly the Sorcerer was added because they felt 1/3 if the entire PHB shouldn't be dedicated to one class (wizard) so they threw in the spontaneous caster to be different. I do think they sort of came into their own later one with the Bloodline feats (which blossomed into a stronger theme with Pathfinder and 4e) but....initially it was "wizard-lite".
The flavor I'm referring to was both in relation to other classes and to previous editions. Outside of psionics, there had never been a class before that could simply just do magical or mystical things: not through training or study or focus or dedication to a higher being or philosophy. The cleric is granted magic. The bard sings magic. The wizard studies magic. The sorcerer is magic.

But more than that—and perhaps in this case the word "flavor" isn't the right one to use—the transition to 5E has taken away the thing that was most unique about the sorcerer in spontaneous spellcasting. Now, everyone picks what spells they're going to cast at the time of casting. The only difference is whether they're picking from a list of known spells or prepared spells.

In 3E, the sorcerer had a lesser selection of spells to cast, but could cast more of them in a day. The sorcerer was limited in focus, but could hurl more of those needed spells.

In 5E, not only is that no longer the case, but you can easily build a wizard that does exactly what the sorcerer does, but more efficiently. Unless you somehow build a wizard with an Intelligence of less than 14, you'll always have at least one more spell prepared than a sorcerer of equivalent level knows. With Arcane Recovery, the wizard actually gets more spell slots per day than the sorcerer (and that's before you factor in the free spellcasting from Spell Mastery). And it doesn't get better as you go up in level: a 20th level wizard with a 20 Intelligence can have 27 different spells prepared, as compared to the sorcerer's 15 spells know. That same wizard has unlimited castings of a 1st level and a 2nd level spell, as well as one free casting of two different 3rd-level spells.

For a class that's supposed to be about innate spellcasting, the 5e sorcerer spends a lot of time watching the wizard class eat the sorcerer's lunch.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8008 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2019 :  17:09:32  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Just wondering... the one thing I found in 5e that didn't work well was multiclass spellcasting, especially when mixing multiple spellcaster types. I see your stuff says this

Revised rules for multiclass spellcasting


Can you reveal some of what you were looking to do in that? If it sounds intriguing enough, I may be interested. For myself, I created these feats that for the most part just allowed a character to memorize/know more spells of a higher level in their other spellcasting class. The idea that you could have a mage-priest and have them be near or at full progression in one class and still able to cast some say 4th or 5th level spells in their other progression was where I was going. It was still going along with the 5e concept that you didn't get more spell slots, just more options of what you can use when you use those spell slots. I won't say its elegant or anything, but its relatively simple and I don't think game breaking, but I would like to hear other people's ideas as well. For instance, when I heard the concept someone had for exchanging hit die using blood magic, I got the idea of giving up daily hit dice for feats, etc...
Right now, the core multiclassing rules use a fractional system that don't do the best job of reflecting how each class contributes to the character's total spellcasting ability (the problem is especially apparent with the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster archetypes). The current version does some stuff to streamline that calculation.

What you're describing in terms of the mage-priest might be better represented, in this case, by a limited multiclassing (say, "dipping the toe" into the cleric class for a level or two), and then having a feat that allows the sorcerer to swap out a sorcerer spell for a spell in the other class of the same or lower level. I am working on something like that, but it's for a later iteration of the book, since we need to nail the core design first.



Hmm, that may be a simpler method rule wise, and I am interested in making the rules easier. But I can see folks saying that it becomes too powerful of a feat. Maybe some tinkering with levels, or the need to use a higher level slot than it would be to cast it as a cleric, etc... (noting divine soul sorcerers do what you're describing, but they give up other stuff and that won't work for wizards anyway).



Just for the sake of discussion, here's what I made up (two of the feats) that would aid multi-class mage-priests. Posting it also so that I read through it myself again to see how wordy it is. I fully admit to not being happy with the wordiness, but the results don't seem too bad. Looking at it, if the character took both feats and went 16 wiz/4 cleric they'd be able to cast 9th level wizard and 7th level cleric spells.... but again, spending 2 feats to do so, and having to meet the requirements of both. I also have a ruling in place that essentially lets someone trade in 5 daily hit dice for a feat, such that feats are at least a little more of an option.

Multiple spellcaster classes
Prerequisite –
the character must have at least two levels in two classes providing the Spellcasting feature or Pact Magic feature. The spellcasting classes involved must be ones that provide full spellcasting levels for adding up available spell slots when multi-classing (i.e. Bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard, but not paladin, ranger, eldritch knight or Arcane Trickster). The character must have a 3rd level spell slot and be at least a 6th lvl character.
Due to his study of multiple spellcasting traditions, the character has learned to prepare higher level spells than the number of levels he has in his current spellcasting classes would allow.
When this feat is taken, the character must choose two classes which allow her to qualify for this feat that the character possesses. For both of his classes, the character is treated as though two levels higher in regards to “spells prepared or known” for spellcasters. If one of the classes is a pact magic class (i.e. warlock), the character is treated as two pact magic class (i.e. warlock) levels higher in regards of the slot level, but in addition the character's “spell slots per level” on the Multiclass Spellcaster table are increased by two (such that a 6th level wizard / 6th level warlock would have the spell slots of an 8th level multi-class spellcaster). If the character reaches 16th level and more than 10 levels separates his two spellcasting classes, the bonus levels in his lesser class increases from two to four. If the character reaches 20th level and more than 12 levels separates his two spellcasting classes, the bonus levels in his lesser class increases from four to six.
It should be noted that this feat is intended to be combined with similar feats, such as “Mystic Hierophant”, “Theurgist Adept” , “Mage-Priest of the Magic Deities”, “Fochluchan Lyrist”, “Song Mage”, and “Nature Priest”. It is the only feat meant to be able to combine with such feats.


Mage-Priest of the Magic Deities
Prerequisite:
requires either the knowledge domain or the arcana domain (Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide pg 125) . The character must be at least 8th level and multiclassed in the cleric class and either the bard, sorcerer, or wizard class.
You serve a deity whose focus in on some aspect of magic (Mystra, Azuth, Savras, Leira, Velsharoon, Corellon, etc.. )or knowledge (Deneir, Oghma, Milil, Gond, etc...), and you seek to improve your spellcasting in both fields. As a result, you are able to prepare higher level spells
The character's understanding of multiple arcana allows them to improve their ability to prepare higher level spells. The exact mechanics of this depend on how many class levels of difference separate their cleric and their bard, sorcerer, or wizard levels (whichever of the three is the lowest if the character has levels in more than one of these, or chosen by the character if they are equal). If four or more levels separates the two classes, then the lesser of the two classes is treated as though it were four levels higher in relation to its “spells known or prepared” (this does not affect the number of spell slots available). If three levels separate the two, then three levels are added to the lesser and one to the greater. If two levels or less separate the two classes, then both classes are treated as though they were two levels higher in relation to its “spells known or prepared” . This number changes as the character levels and changes this difference between his cleric and other arcane classes. Thus, a cleric 4/wizard 4 would prepare spells as a 6th lvl cleric and as a 6th lvl wizard, but if he went on to become a cleric 4/wizard 7 then it would be preparing spells as a 7th lvl cleric and an 8th lvl wizard, and cleric 4/wizard 8 would be preparing spells as an 8th lvl cleric and an 8th lvl wizard. Similarly, a cleric 2/wizard 10 would be preparing spells as a 6th lvl cleric and a 10th lvl wizard, but such a character would be losing his 4th lvl clerical ability increase/feat.
In addition, the character learns the thaumaturgy cantrip and has the below spells prepared and/or known in each class that can prepare spells of that level, even if that spell isn't normally on their spell list.
1st level – Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic
2nd level – arcane lock
3rd level – counterspell



Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8008 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2019 :  17:47:36  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Pardon my inquiry, but what unique flavor did it possesse in 3E? If I remember correctly the Sorcerer was added because they felt 1/3 if the entire PHB shouldn't be dedicated to one class (wizard) so they threw in the spontaneous caster to be different. I do think they sort of came into their own later one with the Bloodline feats (which blossomed into a stronger theme with Pathfinder and 4e) but....initially it was "wizard-lite".
The flavor I'm referring to was both in relation to other classes and to previous editions. Outside of psionics, there had never been a class before that could simply just do magical or mystical things: not through training or study or focus or dedication to a higher being or philosophy. The cleric is granted magic. The bard sings magic. The wizard studies magic. The sorcerer is magic.

But more than that—and perhaps in this case the word "flavor" isn't the right one to use—the transition to 5E has taken away the thing that was most unique about the sorcerer in spontaneous spellcasting. Now, everyone picks what spells they're going to cast at the time of casting. The only difference is whether they're picking from a list of known spells or prepared spells.

In 3E, the sorcerer had a lesser selection of spells to cast, but could cast more of them in a day. The sorcerer was limited in focus, but could hurl more of those needed spells.

In 5E, not only is that no longer the case, but you can easily build a wizard that does exactly what the sorcerer does, but more efficiently. Unless you somehow build a wizard with an Intelligence of less than 14, you'll always have at least one more spell prepared than a sorcerer of equivalent level knows. With Arcane Recovery, the wizard actually gets more spell slots per day than the sorcerer (and that's before you factor in the free spellcasting from Spell Mastery). And it doesn't get better as you go up in level: a 20th level wizard with a 20 Intelligence can have 27 different spells prepared, as compared to the sorcerer's 15 spells know. That same wizard has unlimited castings of a 1st level and a 2nd level spell, as well as one free casting of two different 3rd-level spells.

For a class that's supposed to be about innate spellcasting, the 5e sorcerer spends a lot of time watching the wizard class eat the sorcerer's lunch.



Another big difference, the wizard can CHANGE his spells day to day still, but the sorcerer cannot. Also, this has been significantly enhanced since 2nd edition when it took hours to memorize a spell, such that now its just rest and spend a few minutes to change your whole spell list. Granted, I know that sorcerers weren't around in 2e, but if wizards truly had to spend HOURS memorizing spells to change them then they wouldn't be near as flexible.

To give a comparison, back in 2nd edition, I actually created a spell so that wizards could instantly refill spell slots with spells that they used the prior day without having to restudy. This was because it could take an archmage something like a week to rememorize ALL the spell slots that they had available and could expend in a single day. I also made another spell that let a wizard once a day gain a full rest with just something like 2 hours of sleep. This was so that they could get back 6 hours during which they could study spells. People just glossed over this rule in 2e and just didn't realize how much it truly should have affected gameplay. Yes, back then wizards were powerful in a flurry, but if you caught one AFTER they had released all that magic, they were in a bind if they didn't have significant magic item resources to call upon, and again, it could take DAYS of pretty much not moving around much to restudy it all.

In 2e, wizards had more spell slots, but if we simply said wizards took the 10 minutes per spell slot to rememorize spells in 5e, for a 20th lvl wizard to renew all his slots in a day would take 890 minutes, or almost 15 hours, if he'd used them all. Now, its just right around a half hour. Granted, the sorcerer doesn't even have to do a half hour, but he can't ever change his list up.

From the second edition PH below for noting

A spell book contains the complicated instructions for casting the spell -- the spell's recipe, so to speak. Merely reading these instructions aloud or trying to mimic the instructions does not enable one to cast the spell. Spells gather and shape mystical
energies; the procedures involved are very demanding, bizarre, and intricate. Before a wizard can actually cast a spell, he must memorize its arcane formula. This locks an energy pattern for that particular spell into his mind. Once he has the spell memorized, it
remains in his memory until he uses the exact combination of gestures, words, and materials that triggers the release of this energy pattern. Upon casting, the energy of the spell is spent, wiped clean from the wizard's mind. The wizard cannot cast that spell
again until he returns to his spell book and memorizes it again.

<snip>
Memorization is not a thing that happens immediately. The wizard must have a clear head gained from a restful night's sleep and then has to spend time studying his spell books. The amount of study time needed is 10 minutes per level of the spell being memorized. Thus, a 9th-level spell (the most powerful) would require 90 minutes of careful study. Clearly, high-level spellcasters do not lightly change their memorized spells.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 11 Jan 2019 18:10:17
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1312 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2019 :  15:20:49  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, god. I really want this one, and right now I cannot buy it. I hate you, Beshaba. I really do.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1092 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2019 :  16:05:58  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Oh, god. I really want this one, and right now I cannot buy it. I hate you, Beshaba. I really do.
The good news, Zeromaru, is that the title isn't going anywhere. I plan to leave it up on the DMs' Guild for as long as they'll let me.

The perhaps-bad news is that, eventually, the price will go up as text and artwork are added and editing and layout improve. Which may make it more difficult to obtain.

I do hope whatever obstacles to getting your hands on the book are cleared for you soon, though.
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1312 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2019 :  18:35:30  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have asked a friend to buy it for me, so I hope I can read it soon. The sorcerer is one of my favorite classes, and I feel they deserve better than to be "the poor's man wizards" they seem to be in 5e. I'm also hyped by that lore Wooly mentioned (connecting them to the silver fire and stuff).

Even if I haven't read it yet, I have my first feedback (?): I hope you expand on the metamagic feature they originally have in 5e. While underpowered in the actual official form, it does have a lot of potential, and thematically it fits with the sorcerer's being "one with magic". I also like to see more of the 4e approach for the class. While wizards are all controlled results and precise effects, in 4e sorcerers were more like raw magic fonts. Like, their spells were burst of energy instead of controlled explosions, and they had to use their willpower to control their magic, usually released accidentally even when they were not casting spells.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1092 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2019 :  22:58:47  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I have asked a friend to buy it for me, so I hope I can read it soon. The sorcerer is one of my favorite classes, and I feel they deserve better than to be "the poor's man wizards" they seem to be in 5e. I'm also hyped by that lore Wooly mentioned (connecting them to the silver fire and stuff).
I'm confident you'll enjoy it. I hope you get to read it soon!
quote:
Even if I haven't read it yet, I have my first feedback (?): I hope you expand on the metamagic feature they originally have in 5e. While underpowered in the actual official form, it does have a lot of potential, and thematically it fits with the sorcerer's being "one with magic". I also like to see more of the 4e approach for the class. While wizards are all controlled results and precise effects, in 4e sorcerers were more like raw magic fonts. Like, their spells were burst of energy instead of controlled explosions, and they had to use their willpower to control their magic, usually released accidentally even when they were not casting spells.
Oh, there are definitely some expansions to metamagic. A few new options, at least, but also in how metamagic (and its alteration of spells) is tied more closely into the sorcerer's spellcasting.

I can't say more without spoiling the book, but feel free to ask whatever you like once you pick it up!
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1312 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2019 :  22:15:05  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I got it at last. I have to say that I enjoyed the lore so far. I like what you did with the spell points.

I'm to use the system with my sorcerer these days, and share here my experiences.

I have to ask, tho. Why there is no way to create 9th level spell slots?

EDIT:

If I'm understanding this (had to re-read, to not get lost in translation), you have a single spell slot for every spell level you can cast. Is that right?

If so, disregard mu earlier question. I was assuming that in your version, the sorcerer didn't had any spell slots at all.



Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 07 Mar 2019 23:22:52
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1092 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2019 :  23:42:09  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I have to ask, tho. Why there is no way to create 9th level spell slots?

EDIT:

If I'm understanding this (had to re-read, to not get lost in translation), you have a single spell slot for every spell level you can cast. Is that right?
This reading is correct. You get one "free" (cast without spending spell points) slot of each level you can cast, plus can build additional slots using your spell points, subject to the limits in the book.
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