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 Velsharoon vs. Mellifleur
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Nodwick
Acolyte

2 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2018 :  09:56:50  Show Profile Send Nodwick a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
There seems to be the consensus that Mellifleur is one and the same as Velsharoon in the Realms.

However, when looking into how Velsharoon became a god, it seems that he used, in a modified Ritual of Endless Night
* the gizzard of a gold dragon
* blood of the Karsestone
* blood and bile of the avatar of Tiamat
* bone powder of the former avatar of Mellifleur
* Phylactery of Mellifleur
* Skull Staff of the Necromancer

If Velsharoon and Mellifleur are one and the same, how can there have been an avatar of him before he ascended to godhood?

Alternatively, is there an error in the list of components?

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 05 Dec 2018 :  10:04:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Velsharoon has taken Mellifleur's place. It's not an uncommon thing, among deities of the Realms, to assume the name of a fallen power and answer prayers in that fallen power's name.

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Nodwick
Acolyte

2 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2018 :  11:23:52  Show Profile Send Nodwick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Did Mellifleur cease to be a god the moment Velsharoon became one, or did that happen earlier? Are there any sources of Mellifleur before he was superseded by Velsharoon?
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7593 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2018 :  12:49:24  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Nodwick

There seems to be the consensus that Mellifleur is one and the same as Velsharoon in the Realms.

However, when looking into how Velsharoon became a god, it seems that he used, in a modified Ritual of Endless Night
* the gizzard of a gold dragon
* blood of the Karsestone
* blood and bile of the avatar of Tiamat
* bone powder of the former avatar of Mellifleur
* Phylactery of Mellifleur
* Skull Staff of the Necromancer

If Velsharoon and Mellifleur are one and the same, how can there have been an avatar of him before he ascended to godhood?

Alternatively, is there an error in the list of components?



The list of components you show above are from myself. I wholesale created such. My take is that Velsharoon replaced Mellifleur, and you will find many a thread around here wherein I discuss some on this process.

On this, its my take that Mellifleur arose early on in the deification of Bane. I'd also prefer it that this rise of the dark three occurs BEFORE Karsus' Folly, and if we can work it such that Mellifleur's rise is a draining of power from all of the dark three as they rose to power....(or rather a drain off of Jergal as he dispensed his power... never thought about it, but what if Mellifleur had been a mage-priest of Jergal??? What if he mixed both divine AND arcane procedures in his rise to lichdom and he was calling on Jergal AS Jergal was giving his power elsewhere?) that would make the most sense.

By the "if we can work it" I mean with meeting proper dates of things that have been released. The actual date of the rise of the dark three is probably one of the most contested things around here, but I believe we had it down to occurring in the mid -300's.

Why am I interested in getting it around then? I want Karsus to have HEARD of the rise of Mellifleur and the Dark Three involving arcane power used to steal the power of the gods, and his attempt was his own Hubris thinking he could recreate Mellifleur's accident in a rushed attempt. I also like the idea that Mellifleur was from Narfell, and that Larloch's enclave of Jiksidur was above Narfell because he ALSO was trying to discover information about the lich creation ritual that Mellifleur enacted that made him become a god. Just to throw out an idea here Possibly Larloch was even sent to research this ritual by Mystryl herself, since he is possibly a chosen of hers, and possibly he himself is either a reason that the weave held/recovered so fast (possibly involving draining his own mythallar into himself as part of recreating his own lich creation ritual at the same time or something equally interesting). This may be why Larloch has such particular control over other liches even, as perhaps he tied himself as a chosen to both Mellifleur and Mystryl... not sure if I like that.


Below are some threads dating before 2014 where we were discussing many different options, and I pulled this list from THIS thread


http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18871

below from that thread

there's been some research around the keep in the last 5 or 6 years devoted to when Bane himself came around as a deity. I want to say that we got really narrowed in to the years just preceding Karsus' Folly OR just after it (and my preference was just preceding, so that Mellifleur's and Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul ascension could make Karsus jealous). I can't find the reference we used in the 300's DR, but I want to say it was a reference around either Bhaal or Myrkul rather than Bane.

I also theorized that perhaps the formation of Mellifleur the lich deity by accidentally drawing from Bane's power happened at the same time as the dark 3... and possibly he drew from all 3 of them, but his entry only happened to list Bane... it would fit if a god of liches also drew from Myrkul as well as Bane, as well as the lord of the instance of death <I.e. Bhaal>) or just following it.

A link to some discussions about Bane's ascension. Main note: the dark three slew Borem of the Boiling mud in -359 DR
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9985&whichpage=1

Here's a link that talks about Bane and trying to nail down his date of ascension
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8431&whichpage=2

Here's a link that talks about some ideas with Bane and Mourktar
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17887&whichpage=1

A discussion on possible early history for Myrkul
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18348&whichpage=3

Here's a link to some of my suppositions on Mellifleur, Velsharoon, and Orcus
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17205

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7593 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2018 :  13:11:52  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, also, one thing that we "know" is that the dark three were wandering around "destroying" the beings tied to "the Hills of the Seven Lost Gods", which is ALSO some kind of power source for the "dragon laser" that shot "something" in the sky. It may very well have been that the dark three were basically severing the links of these beings to a powerful power source... some kind of artifact buried beneath the hill of the seven lost gods... so that they themselves could use it for their own ascension. Maybe said artifact was essentially a naturally occurring thing SIMILAR to arcane Mythallars and psionic Udoxias.

Which just to throw out there even more... maybe there's a fact that Manshoon himself doesn't know yet regarding his clone that was in Westgate (the city with the Hill of Seven Lost Gods) and WHY Mystra was interested in making him a chosen? What ELSE did that vampire do to his body (if anything)? Might we find that there was something implanted in him? Is whatever that WAS now drained? I don't consider this a strong possibility mind you, but something to possibly tinker with.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 05 Dec 2018 14:28:45
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 05 Dec 2018 :  17:18:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Nodwick

Did Mellifleur cease to be a god the moment Velsharoon became one, or did that happen earlier? Are there any sources of Mellifleur before he was superseded by Velsharoon?



Mellifleur is a deity, but he's not a deity in the Realms. He's a lesser power of liches in the pre-3E core material; I don't know of any specific worlds he's associated with. He's got about half a page in Monster Mythologies and that's about all I know of.

In the Realms, Velsharoon answers any prayers to Mellifleur. Since Mellifleur is himself not present in the Realms, there's nothing that keeps Vellie (or anyone else) from claiming his name.

So Mellifleur is himself a deity. He's likely not fond of Vellie, but there there's nothing Mellie can do about Vellie within Realmspace.

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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4207 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2018 :  17:39:10  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Or as an alternative ignore what the deity dictates and instead mellifleur may or may not have had a cult following in the realms I'm the past. Now there is a cult that venerates being that resembles mellifleur in appearance and outlook, but it either calls that being velsharoon or acknowledges and also venerates velsharoon as the patron and superior of mellifleur. So whenever a cultist of this group invokes mellifleurs name they also invoke velsharoon.

Of course the above is only relevant if you don't have gods directly interacting with the material plane (talking, sending friends.to rough people up, dropping round for tea and to divulge the latest stages of your secret plan and declare who is really a traitor to the faith and what the new years tenets of the faith should include.)

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AJA
Learned Scribe

USA
80 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2018 :  18:11:56  Show Profile Send AJA a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

there's nothing Mellie can do about Vellie within Realmspace.


They could form an R&B duo. Call it Melli Velli. Have hits like Ghoul You Know It's True and Blame It On The Revenant.

(have Finder lip-sync for them)




AJA
YAFRP
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Bragi
Seeker

USA
55 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2018 :  21:16:36  Show Profile  Visit Bragi's Homepage  Send Bragi an AOL message  Send Bragi an ICQ Message  Send Bragi a Yahoo! Message Send Bragi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sleyvas, I'm using much of your work in my home campaign because I think it is excellent work. My campaign is set during the Time of Troubles and my group is following in the footsteps of Velsharoon. I have a question about something that you posted.

In this thread
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13671

quote:

1356 DR - Mythrell'aa, Zulkir of Illusion, assaults a Halruaan exile, rumored to have been amongst the original red wizards who helped rise up against the Mulhorandi centuries ago. The female had been employing spies and peering too closely into Thayan business ventures surrounding the formation of a Thayan enclave in Soorenar. The woman manages to escape through the aid of another renegade red wizard and Halruaan exile, the archmage Velsharoon the Vaunted. From the history books left behind by woman, Mythrell'aa reads of a "flying city which could make itself invisible which aided the Netherese diaspora in finding a new homeland to the south".


Who is the female that you're refering to?


I have developed some lore around the birth of Velsharoon and his early days in Halruaa that I'm waiting to divulge once my campaign is completed.

In Pursuit of Better Worlds,
Bragi of Erin

Edited by - Bragi on 05 Dec 2018 21:17:36
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7593 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2018 :  00:15:58  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Nodwick

Did Mellifleur cease to be a god the moment Velsharoon became one, or did that happen earlier? Are there any sources of Mellifleur before he was superseded by Velsharoon?



Mellifleur is a deity, but he's not a deity in the Realms. He's a lesser power of liches in the pre-3E core material; I don't know of any specific worlds he's associated with. He's got about half a page in Monster Mythologies and that's about all I know of.

In the Realms, Velsharoon answers any prayers to Mellifleur. Since Mellifleur is himself not present in the Realms, there's nothing that keeps Vellie (or anyone else) from claiming his name.

So Mellifleur is himself a deity. He's likely not fond of Vellie, but there there's nothing Mellie can do about Vellie within Realmspace.



Mellifleur IS specifically mentioned in relation to the realms, in that he's specifically tied to Bane.

Also, one of the things we've discussed in the past was the idea that "Mellifleur" is a collective entity, and that at different times he may have absorbed a lich from a given world. In other words, his story says he's associated with stealing power from different gods in different worlds. The idea would be that there is a specific twist on a ritual of lichdom that triggers and let's "Mellifleur" take over a wizard becoming a lich AND draw on the god power of another deity to become divine at the same time. In this instance, it may be something like High Magic where the offending wizard's entire name is erased (like Orcus, the Raven Queen, and other death gods have had done) and they take on the name Mellifleur. In essence, they lose their own identity in the transferal. If this were the case, it would appear as though Velsharoon saw this trap and somehow bypassed it during his own ascension, BUT he chose to accept the worship power of the name Mellifleur as well.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7593 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2018 :  00:44:53  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bragi

Sleyvas, I'm using much of your work in my home campaign because I think it is excellent work. My campaign is set during the Time of Troubles and my group is following in the footsteps of Velsharoon. I have a question about something that you posted.

In this thread
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13671

quote:

1356 DR - Mythrell'aa, Zulkir of Illusion, assaults a Halruaan exile, rumored to have been amongst the original red wizards who helped rise up against the Mulhorandi centuries ago. The female had been employing spies and peering too closely into Thayan business ventures surrounding the formation of a Thayan enclave in Soorenar. The woman manages to escape through the aid of another renegade red wizard and Halruaan exile, the archmage Velsharoon the Vaunted. From the history books left behind by woman, Mythrell'aa reads of a "flying city which could make itself invisible which aided the Netherese diaspora in finding a new homeland to the south".


Who is the female that you're refering to?


I have developed some lore around the birth of Velsharoon and his early days in Halruaa that I'm waiting to divulge once my campaign is completed.




Thanks. I've wanted to have it that Velsharoon and the "red wizards" of Halruaa were an eclectic group of social outcasts in Halruaa. In doing this, I developed him having a small group of friends that focused on "ignoble" magic work. For instance, I wanted one person who was into conjuring fiends and far realm entities. Another would be socially inept and brilliant but awkward, but having broken the mysteries of chronomancy. Velsharoon himself I was having focused on not only necromancy but also pact magic as a binder. I was having him in love with a female follower of Leira (a mage-priestess) by the name of Alyria Mendacitus. In my thoughts, its Alyria Mendacitus that had the book with Nimbraii and Halruaan lore, faced off against Mythrell'aa, and was rescued by Velsharoon.

I'd started a short story a long time ago to go into his early years, and this is what I'd written up of her history. Its not much info, and honestly I never developed her much beyond this concept. I was having Velsharoon meet her there when she was an orphan, but he himself was from a rich noble family. His father was on the council of elders and his mother was a Mystran priestess. His older brother was a proper Halruaan, and his sister had "gone rogue" by choosing to have Azuth as her patron instead of Mystra.

Velsharoon himself had not discovered the temple. No, in truth he owed all the credit for that to his fellow Red Wizards. First and foremost, he owed the discovery to his wondrous and beautiful lady friend, Alyria Mendacitus. Alyria's mother had been a Nimbraii spy sent to seduce her father and spy upon the council of elders through him at a time when the Nimbraii feared an invasion from their mother country. The mission was to be a short one, however, her mother had not counted upon her spells of contraception failing. Nor had she foreseen herself falling for the most basic illusion of them all, love.
Of their union, Alyria was born. She was a beautiful, red-haired, green eyed, youth. There was no doubting she was the spitting image of her mother. Both her parents loved her enormously, even moreso when she showed a talent for wizardry. Even as a young girl, she showed an amazing gift for illusion magic, and her mother ensured that she was given the training with which to refine her skills. However, it was in her early teens that her life took a drastic turn.
Alyria's mother was caught by a magehound being contacted by another Nimbraii spy on a mission to steal a minor artifact kept in a Mystran temple. Though she had refused to aid the spy, the true story of her origins came out. The council of elders was furious that they'd had a spy in their midst for over a decade. Their ruling was both vicious and swift, calling for her execution to be meted out the following day. Alyria's father was furious at his wife's deception, but he would not stand idly by and watch her be slain. His actions, though valorous and foolishly noble, simply left his daughter to be an orphan.
The state could not punish the child for the sins of her parents, and as a result Alyria was placed in a state run orphanage for the magically inclined. It was here that she met Velsharoon

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7593 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2018 :  00:51:46  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You know... just because as I reread that portion of the short story, and I realize I never posted it anywhere... gonna just post it and see what people think. I'm pretty certain it could use some work, and its only 1 of the 7 pages I wrote, but still...


The Conjurer's Conclave was an upper echelon club that catered to the rich and decadent upper class of Halruaa, or those from other countries who had the money and willingness to spend it. Unfortunately, Halruaa being the prim and proper place that it was, that usually meant that the inhabitants of the bar were outlanders. Which was fine by most Halruaans, since it contained the outland "element" to an area outside the normal flow of Halruaan life, but far enough inland that it wasn't a cheap dive on the docks. Also, being in a relatively clandestine location meant that those visiting "the 'Clave", as it was known locally, stood a fair chance of not being seen.
The club was known as a place primarily where one could get any kind of food, drink, or pampering one wanted. If you wanted to try gorgon steaks along with a bottle of Tethyrian apple wine, the Conjurer's Conclave was the place to go. If you wanted to try baked wyvern tail cooked with glazed Calishite fig preserves, that was also on the menu. The chef's most well known dish was his stuffed roast harpy, but this was more for its presentation than any particularly amazing feature of its taste. This enormous menu was possible due to the magically chilled extradimensional space kept by the proprietor and his box of instant thawing. For those not interested in a good meal, there were the public pools, a popular past time for young and old alike. A sauna heated through the ministrations of a minor fire elemental, also proved a draw for some businessmen. Finally, for those seeking to beautify themselves, a team of barbers and hair stylists were available to trim, style, or color an individual as necessary. For an extra fee, these same individuals offered an unadvertised service to provide temporary magical enhancements aimed at disguising an individual's true nature.
The secondary but more illicit thing that the club was known for was its "second floor" brothel, which was also in an extradimensional space. It was only enterable through a portal requiring an entrance fee which was tossed into a fountain near the portal, and the speaking of a certain passphrase. The "second floor" was known as a special brothel due to the unusual services it offered. The entry fee granted access to the waiting area, where illusory presentations of an erotic nature were provided. For a minor fee, those with a fetish for public displays of themselves could be allowed to interact with these illusions, with or without their identities hidden by real and/or illusory disguises. However, given that illusions could easily be disbelieved in the throes of passion, after only a few sessions most frequent visitors found themselves unable to enjoy themselves with illusions any longer
There were of course the normal ladies and men for hire, though unbeknownst to most of the clientel, at least half of these ladies and gentlemen were in fact simulacrums created from exotic dancers found throughout the world from numerous cultures and races. To allay suspicion, true individuals were rotated in from the outside to mirror constant change of staff, as well as some simulacrums being retired as time or skepticism required. However, truthfully, the simulacrums were amazingly realistic to most visitors, most of whom never even noticed their lack of knowledge. Still, even these
Another alternative, one more commonly chosen by female clientel with a fear of disease, the Conjurer's Conclave offered the assistance of specially designed golems meant to provide erotic pleasure in somewhat mechanical and repetitive measures. However for those with truly kinky tastes and the money to go with it, the proprietor, Karsend Danovar, was able to provide the services of extraplanar beings who were under his thrall due to his magical skills. The succubus and erinyes were natural draws, but several genies captured while on an expedition in Zakhara were also popular. It was a bit of a stretch of the local laws against slavery, but nothing was ever enforced against him because his club technically didn't exist within the confines of Halruaa.
What was not known about The Conjurer's Conclave was that it was a secret meeting place for the "Red Wizards' Society". Not even the proprietor knew that his portal had been tampered with to allow a secondary destination to be chosen. Due to the societal stigma associated with visiting brothels in Halruaa, it was not unheard of for those headed to the portal entry to employ means to make themselves invisible or change their appearance. So long as the entrance fees were obtained, Karsend Danovar didn't spend an enormous amount of time tracking the comings and goings of individuals, and his customers preferred it that way. Thus, the members of the Red Wizards' Society simply added an additional requirement of bearing a small porcelain charm with the symbol of a red outlined hand positioned with all fingers extended. Performing all the actions to reach the "second floor" while invisibly bearing the charm redirected the individual to an old Leiran temple somewhere in the mountains on the border between Dambrath and Halruaa.
The temple had been emptied millenia before when the Leiran mage-priests had left Halruaa for Nimbral, taking with them anything of value. However, they had left behind something of immense value to the members of the Red Wizards' Society. They were given a place where they could all gather clandestinely and perform research into magics that their elders would consider too dangerous to even contemplate. In the old Leiran temple, they were allowed to openly discuss topics with their peers which would have had them shunned in Halruaans society, or possibly worse, hunted by the magehounds. In this refuge from their masters, they were able to gather and share spellbooks and rituals captured from their enemies which normally would have been relegated to the confines of the dark magic section of the Mystran and Azuthan temple libraries.
Velsharoon himself had not discovered the temple. No, in truth he owed all the credit for that to his fellow Red Wizards. First and foremost, he owed the discovery to his wondrous and beautiful lady friend, Alyria Mendacitus. Alyria's mother had been a Nimbraii spy sent to seduce her father and spy upon the council of elders through him at a time when the Nimbraii feared an invasion from their mother country. The mission was to be a short one, however, her mother had not counted upon her spells of contraception failing. Nor had she foreseen herself falling for the most basic illusion of them all, love.
Of their union, Alyria was born. She was a beautiful, red-haired, green eyed, youth. There was no doubting she was the spitting image of her mother. Both her parents loved her enormously, even moreso when she showed a talent for wizardry. Even as a young girl, she showed an amazing gift for illusion magic, and her mother ensured that she was given the training with which to refine her skills. However, it was in her early teens that her life took a drastic turn.
Alyria's mother was caught by a magehound being contacted by another Nimbraii spy on a mission to steal a minor artifact kept in a Mystran temple. Though she had refused to aid the spy, the true story of her origins came out. The council of elders was furious that they'd had a spy in their midst for over a decade. Their ruling was both vicious and swift, calling for her execution to be meted out the following day. Alyria's father was furious at his wife's deception, but he would not stand idly by and watch her be slain. His actions, though valorous and foolishly noble, simply left his daughter to be an orphan.
The state could not punish the child for the sins of her parents, and as a result Alyria was placed in a state run orphanage for the magically inclined. It was here that she met Velsharoon.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

837 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2018 :  14:32:30  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It should be noted that the Bane connection was made by a dev not overly familiar with the Realms. It's likely that Mellifleur usurped Kyuss.

Mellifleur himself is not worshiped in the Realms, specifically because he has no priesthood anywhere. Velsharoon and he may just be allies of convenience, since they share the same realm; the necropolis city of Hopelorn is Mellifleur's domain while the vast crypts beneath belong to Velsharoon.

Edited by - LordofBones on 08 Dec 2018 14:40:09
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7593 Posts

Posted - 09 Dec 2018 :  04:35:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

It should be noted that the Bane connection was made by a dev not overly familiar with the Realms. It's likely that Mellifleur usurped Kyuss.

Mellifleur himself is not worshiped in the Realms, specifically because he has no priesthood anywhere. Velsharoon and he may just be allies of convenience, since they share the same realm; the necropolis city of Hopelorn is Mellifleur's domain while the vast crypts beneath belong to Velsharoon.



It was specifically stated that Mellifleur pulled from multiple deities in different worlds and that this was a bit of confusion for people. This is why I developed the idea that it was true on the pulling from multiple deities, but what was untrue was that it happened all at once. Basically, the idea would be that new "Mellifleurs" were caused in different worlds, but with an overarching sentience taking over as new mortals rose to godhood. The "god-sentience" then works to erase the name of the being that arose and "overwrite" it with its own.

So, to give an example here, for realmspace, there may have been... let's say a Narfellian spellcaster... for arguments sake let's call him "Mellarfell" (yeah, I know its corny)... and he invades the God-Tomb of Nergal (a now supposedly dead power in the Great Barrow in a Ziggurat in the nearby Great Dale). He uncovers this "ritual" that details a "better" way to become a lich. He decides to follow it, and lo and behold he usurps power from another god (possibly Bane... possibly Jergal as he was feeding it to the dark three). This ritual then calls upon "Mellifleur" the divine sentience, which overwhelms the fledgling power of "Mellarfell", and overwrites his name and history such that noone even recalls "Mellarfell" and only recalls "Mellifleur". For those paying real close attention here, they might also notice similar things with the name of Nergal and Jergal, which might actually be worked into things as well if one wanted to ultimately make Jergal the source of this power, but that the dark three were the ones impacted, and thus they have a beef with Mellifleur.

As to Mellifleur having worshippers in the realms, one thing I'd note is that I don't believe Mellifleur survived the Time of Troubles in the realms. This could be how Velsharoon got ahold of his phylactery. His survival would have been dependent on A) him having actually survived his avatar state and B) him being able to maintain enough worshippers to FUEL him given the changes wrought by Ao. Thus, he's presented in a 2e resource after the ToT and noted in said resource as to be "always on the run and hiding", so in the ten years following the ToT what few worshippers he had may have been in despair until Velsharoon used one of Mellifleur's phylacteries to ascend (and took on a much broader portfolio). In essence, prior to the ToT, the "Mellifleur collective" could exist in the realms with relative ease, because once you became a god, maintenance was easier.

The big difference I make is that when Velsharoon arises, he's prepared for the "trick" and doesn't lose himself. He also pulls a trick of his own and begins working through Mellifleur's name (which actually probably tickled Ao "to death" to see someone turn Mellifleur's game on himself somewhat).


You will note that in all of the above, rather than trying to say "this or that developer got it wrong", the goal is to make it all correct, except for the one idea that all the Mellifleurs arose at once. The illithid sages are the ones who note the link in various worlds, its just they may not notice the time discrepancies (as nailing down WHEN a god appears exactly IS particularly hard as we've all seen). In fact, in this idea, Mellifleur appears very similar to the concept behind Tenebrous (which is oddly enough another undead god which involved a being's name being erased). Not saying that this is the case that they're the same being, but it may be that many beings trapped in the place where Vestiges go use similar tricks to escape in usurping another god's name.... <cough Amon... recently released as Amaunator usurping Lathander.... cough Amon + At'ar>

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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LordofBones
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Posted - 09 Dec 2018 :  04:40:40  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think Mellifleur has worshipers at all. He and Kanchelsis subsist on the proliferation and empowering of their respective undead subordinates, not on worship.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 09 Dec 2018 :  12:12:51  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

I don't think Mellifleur has worshipers at all. He and Kanchelsis subsist on the proliferation and empowering of their respective undead subordinates, not on worship.



Kanchelsis' entry indicates that he "has no priesthood", and that becomes debatable with later lore. Mellifleur's does not state anything like that, and being a lesser god implies he has more than enough power to establish worshippers, and the organizational skill to use such. Dragon #359 gives him domains for clerics listed The only thing that might indicate no worshippers is the WAL entry that says n/a, but there are good liches, and they might give him worship. I grant you, its debatable, but when given the choice of deliberately limiting something without a reason or allowing the option of using something in an unforeseen way, I will typically try to opt to give flexibility.

Now, do I picture him having a huge priesthood? Absolutely not. This is even why I state that in my version, he didn't survive the ToT. In fact, Ao probably would have looked at him as exactly one of those deities shirking his portfolios (after all, being a lich isn't exactly pushing the portfolio of lichdom). Thus, when Velsharoon uses his phylactery to ascend, he does so with an expansion of portfolios (i.e. venturing into necromancy and undeath in general). Even so, where Mellifleur was a lesser god, Velsharoon is still just a demipower… a demipower for whom the Zulkir of his school of chosen magic is his documented enemy.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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USA
7593 Posts

Posted - 09 Dec 2018 :  12:14:26  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

I don't think Mellifleur has worshipers at all. He and Kanchelsis subsist on the proliferation and empowering of their respective undead subordinates, not on worship.



Kanchelsis' entry indicates that he "has no priesthood", and that becomes debatable with later lore. Mellifleur's does not state anything like that, and being a lesser god implies he has more than enough power to establish worshippers, and the organizational skill to use such. Dragon #359 gives him domains for clerics listed The only thing that might indicate no worshippers is the WAL entry that says n/a, but there are good liches, and they might give him worship. I grant you, its debatable, but when given the choice of deliberately limiting something without a reason or allowing the option of using something in an unforeseen way, I will typically try to opt to give flexibility.

Now, do I picture him having a huge priesthood? Absolutely not. This is even why I state that in my version, he didn't survive the ToT. In fact, Ao probably would have looked at him as exactly one of those deities shirking his portfolios (after all, being a lich isn't exactly pushing the portfolio of lichdom). Thus, when Velsharoon uses his phylactery to ascend, he does so with an expansion of portfolios (i.e. venturing into necromancy and undeath in general). Even so, where Mellifleur was a lesser god, Velsharoon is still just a demipower… a demipower for whom the Zulkir of his school of chosen magic is his documented enemy.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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