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Wenin
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548 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2018 :  01:32:02  Show Profile Send Wenin a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
This past week I took the time to give a shot at scaling the currency images from the Waterdeep Heist. I really liked how it came out. A few things.

The Harbor Moon's depiction must be wrong. The hole in within the coin is supposed to be the size of a Nib. In order to blow that image up to that size the coin ends up being over 5 inches wide. That doesn't match the description. The metal coins that are sold online for the Waterdeep Boardgame are however appropriately scaled. The coins themselves are too small, but if you blow an image of one up to the proper size, it ends up being just over 3 inches.

The Dragon, I had to take a real swing at. The images I used had all the common coins at the same sized images, which really helped with the scaling. So for the Nib, I reduced the size of the image by 35%. So I'm thinking mathematically, the the Dragon should be 52%. That resulted in a coin that visually looked twice the size. I ended up adjusting it to 48% the image size.

Another thing, the Nib is square, however the images had it standing on a point. This made the Nib's image larger, while the coin was smaller. Shrugs.

So now looking at the images I'm wondering how much the Harbor Moon and Taol weigh. Due to their size they can't keep to the 50 coins to a pound. In fact the coins themselves are likely too small for the 50 coins to a pound.

I once calculated the approximate sizes of all the coins if they were all to keep to the 50 to a pound ratio. Using the size of US currency to determine a diameter.


US Currency Dimensions  for Comparison
Type	Weight (g)	Weight (lbs)	Diameter 	Thickness 
Quarter	   5.67	         0.0125	        24.26 mm	 1.75 mm
Nickel	   5	         0.011	        21.1 mm	         2 mm
Penny	   2.5	         0.0055	        19.05 mm	 1.52 mm
Dime	   2.27	         0.005	        17.9 mm	         1.35 mm


Platinum Piece the size of a quarter would be 1.01 mm thick
Gold piece the size of a penny would be 1.82 mm thick
Silver piece the size of a nickle would be 2.72 mm thick

Some reason I didn't extend the math to the copper piece. =) likely due to the work was for sizing up trade bars. =)


So how much do you think a Harbor Moon and Taol would weigh?


Link to the Waterdeep Coins to Scale
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ree5vru9thnftc0/Coin%20Set%20to%20Scale.jpg?dl=0

Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR.

Edited by - Wenin on 29 Oct 2018 01:33:42

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 29 Oct 2018 :  01:53:39  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am not aware of anything that says the hole in the harbor moon is the size of a nib.

In fact, there is this quote from Ed:

quote:
NOTE: the “standard” (as opposed to “special”) coins of Silverymoon are all about the same size, whereas the nib and sun of Waterdeep are noticeably larger than other Waterdhavian coins.

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Wenin
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548 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2018 :  02:25:20  Show Profile Send Wenin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Text from waterdeep heist specificallystat that the hole is that size.

Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 29 Oct 2018 :  04:05:49  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd disregard that, then, since no prior lore says that *and* because it doesn't match their own description.

Also, that's in the section written by Volo, so just say he got it wrong)

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Wenin
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548 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2018 :  11:51:19  Show Profile Send Wenin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I am not aware of anything that says the hole in the harbor moon is the size of a nib.

In fact, there is this quote from Ed:

quote:
NOTE: the “standard” (as opposed to “special”) coins of Silverymoon are all about the same size, whereas the nib and sun of Waterdeep are noticeably larger than other Waterdhavian coins.




I've been thinking about Ed's information. While coins of different nations would vary in shape, for the standard coins (cp, sp, gp, pp) they should all be the same weight. If they aren't then that would introduce an exchange rate, which I don't believe Ed has ever introduced. So while Silverymoon's coins could be all the same diameter (or approximate shapes that are about the same size) for Waterdeep to have differences from Silvermoon the thickness of the coins would vary greatly between the cities.


Then factor in the coins per pound. How long has that factor been in place? Just since 3.5?

Coins can also change over time, so what time period is Ed's response tagged with, if any?

Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 29 Oct 2018 :  14:59:04  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One thing to bear in mind when comparing to prior quotes is that the harbor moon has changed with this iteration. The Lords of Waterdeep game... while not necessarily "canon" I'd still consider canon, and the imagery I'd put for those coins is prior to the spellplague since said game revolves around Lords that were no longer around AFTER the spellplague. So, during that era the coins were stamped with a different image, and perhaps most interestingly, the hole in the coin was round and not square. That tells me that not only did the imagery change, but so may have the consistency of the metals used and the size of the coin. Anyway, on to the comparison.

First, let me say thank you for doing this. I hadn't actually thought to compare physical size, but now I realize that harbor moons are BIG. I state this because page 169 in Dragon Heist says that they're "about three inches long". So, when I look at what's on screen from what you did and hold up a tape measure, I get a little over 3 inches (bearing in mind, screen size varies and I have a 27" monitor). I then took a quarter from my pocket and held it up to the screen, and I am surprised at the physical size difference. Its significant. I also agree that the description says that a nib can fit into a harbor moon AND the description of a nib also says its "about the size of a thumbnail". The nib in your picture is SMALLER than my fingernail, and I'd take the "about" to mean that it "might" be BIGGER than MY fingernail since I have small hands . Why? Because you can't make out any of the imagery on the other coins. Based on this, I'd say that your nib should be just a bit bigger, to the point that it actually is ABOUT the same size as that on page 169 of Dragon Heist (I'm thinking maybe 15% smaller on each side or 72% of the surface area). This might be a little bit bigger than my thumbnail, but not by much, whereas the current picture from your website is smaller than my thumbnail. This would also allow for the detail on the coin to be more, and it would make the picture of the dragon coin to be about the right size. This in turn would allow for the detail on ALL the coins to be more, since all the other coins are all referenced in comparison to the nib in SOME form.

That being said, the reference to the idea that the pictured harbor moon should be able to hold a nib in its hole. To THAT, I'd say that would be a heck no. I see no way for that to happen without that hold in the pictured harbor moon from the module being twice as big. Rather than screw with the picture though, I would state that the reference was "misstated" and it was "supposed" to say "half the size of a nib"... or remove that reference entirely. I will also say that the Taol also says it can fit a nib, yet its hole, like the one in the harbor moon during the years prior to the spellplague, is STILL round and if blown up to two inches just might hold the nib we're talking about. So, MAYBE a way to "spin" this is that the OLD harbor moon COULD fit a nib, and they've since made this hole smaller and square instead of round.


This site has a decent picture of the paper coins from Lords of Waterdeep which look significantly different from the current harbor moon.
http://www.pairofdiceparadise.com/upgrades-for-paper-game-coins-a4.php
https://www.pubmeeple.com/review-lords-of-waterdeep/

Hmm, and I hadn't recalled that Silverymoon also has a blue crescent shaped coin called an "electrum moon" and another coin which combines an electrum moon with a piece of darker silver called an "eclipsed moon". Do we have any imagery of them? I note that they don't say that they have a hole in them like the harbor moon.
From Waterdeep and the North, page 29
Silverymoon mints a crescent-shaped, shining blue coin called an Electrum Moon. These are worth 2 ep in Alustriel’s lands and 1 ep elsewhere.

From City of Splendors, page 32
Silverymoon mints a crescent-shaped, shining blue coin called an #147;electrum moon.#148; These are worth 2 electrum pieces in Alustriel#146;s lands and 1 electrum piece elsewhere. Recently, they began making a larger, round coin called the #147;eclipsed moon#148;; they stamp the shining blue crescent of an electrum moon together with a darker silver wedge to complete a round coin, and it is worth 5 electrum pieces within the city, 2 electrum pieces without.

Also, just because in my being interested in searching on this... I found another company besides "Fantasy Coins" that's apparently making Fantasy Coins. Given that one of the little side projects I'm about to do is to take some shadow boxes and mount coins in them to display
https://campaigncoins.com/coins/collector-packs/

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7509 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2018 :  15:31:21  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
BTW, wasn't there something where we could get those Waterdeep coins? I'd love to actually have some physical ones corresponding to what they've made for display (even if they're plastic and not metal).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7509 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2018 :  15:39:23  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and on THIS thread about a year back, we were discussing what the harbor moon looks like and we got the following for all the coins of waterdeep

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22017

WATERDEEP (no coins of current minting, except the specials, are pierced):
Copper: nib (large slender oval with a tail [tall, narrow, filled-in letter “Q,” so, a thinnish oval with a curving “ell” at one end] stamped on one side with the arms of Waterdeep, and on the other with a stylized Mount Waterdeep [triangle rising from wavy line representing the sea])

Silver: shard (“thin, long” arrowhead-shaped silver-hued coin stamped with the same markings as a nib)

Electrum: sambar (tadpole-shaped [oval with a wide three-bend-wiggle serpentine tail] silvery-blue-hued coin stamped with the same markings as a nib)

Gold: dragon (oval with four in-curved talons protruding from one arc of its edge [curved back inwards to minimize catching on things] in shape, gold-hued coin stamped with the same markings as a nib)

Platinum: sun (large round shiny-metallic ale-brown-hued coin stamped with the same markings as nib)

NOTE: the “standard” (as opposed to “special”) coins of Silverymoon are all about the same size, whereas the nib and sun of Waterdeep are noticeably larger than other Waterdhavian coins.

Nib: arms of Waterdeep face (the “front”) is “the blazon” and the stylized Mount Waterdeep face is “the mountains”

Shard: faces and their names are the same as the nib

Sambar: faces and their names are the same as the nib

Dragon: faces and their names are the same as the nib

Platinum: faces and their names are the same as the nib

Taol: (varies by minting) any face that has the moons and stars around a central ring (around the central piercing) is the “front,” and known as “the worth” (it may or may not have a “one” numeral), and the obverse (“back”) usually has a pattern of parallel wavy lines (the waves in Waterdeep harbor) and is known as “the wet”

Harbor Moon: (varies by minting) the face that has two figures (which vary by minting, but are often two ships, of the heads of two walking statues) facing inwards, towards each other and the central piercing hole (and its ring surround), is the “front” and is known as “the splendor,” whereas the obverse or “back” face usually has a radiating-rays “sun” circle surrounding the central piercing hole and its ring, often with mint marks (writing) on it, the rest of the crescent being filled with a “50” marking and with either waves or tentacles to denote the sea, and is known as the “fair sailing” (Waterdeep’s prosperity being built on its harbor and shipping, and the sun shining on the sea denoting good conditions for voyaging)


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 29 Oct 2018 :  18:00:47  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

BTW, wasn't there something where we could get those Waterdeep coins? I'd love to actually have some physical ones corresponding to what they've made for display (even if they're plastic and not metal).



My post in the thread you linked to has a link to the Fantasy Coin "Water Helm" coins. They're obviously not official, but thinks I that they are nifty.

Now, if you're wanting official Waterdhavian coins... I can't help, but I'd buy some if I could!

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Great Reader

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7509 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2018 :  21:41:43  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

BTW, wasn't there something where we could get those Waterdeep coins? I'd love to actually have some physical ones corresponding to what they've made for display (even if they're plastic and not metal).



My post in the thread you linked to has a link to the Fantasy Coin "Water Helm" coins. They're obviously not official, but thinks I that they are nifty.

Now, if you're wanting official Waterdhavian coins... I can't help, but I'd buy some if I could!



No, I could have sworn I heard something about a limited run of plastic ones being made (it may have just been the dragon coins though). I'm tempted to buy the broken token ones, but $50 dollars for basically me only using 4 of them to display seems overkill.

https://www.amazon.com/Broken-Token-Deepwater-Metal-Coins/dp/B011W955QG


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wenin
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548 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2018 :  21:31:46  Show Profile Send Wenin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It would be best if you printed out the image I created. It will fit nicely on a sheet of paper and then you'll be seeing the same sizes that I do when I print them out.

The way I crawled through the sizing was that I started with the Taol. It is 2 inch square. So I sized that so it was exactly as stated. I then went to the Nib, for it was to be able to fit within the Taol. It's pretty close, a pixel or two perhaps off. I then went to the Harbor Moon, which is when I ran into the issue with the depicted Harbor Moon being to large, and for it to match the description. I just excuse that with it being a mistake on the artistic rendering.

When doing my search for good picture copies (I only have a black and white copier) I kept coming across the Harbor Moons from I think Fantasy Coin. I went ahead and sized the hole in the coin to fit the Nib and its size was right on. The Shard, Dragon and Sun I simply eyeballed since those descriptions were simply approximates.

The whole "size of a thumbnail" I keep thinking back to how we came about the measurement of a foot. =) Everyone's thumbnail will differ in size.

Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR.
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

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Posted - 03 Nov 2018 :  22:59:14  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Coin mints change all the time in real life, no need to say its wrong, especially after the corrupt Open Lord Neverember.
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