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 What happens to the souls of powerful undead?
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mastermustard
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Posted - 15 May 2018 :  00:53:46  Show Profile Send mastermustard a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Once they're destroyed, I mean.

I know that in the vast majority of cases where priests and paladins of good-aligned deities have been made undead for whatever reason, their gods no longer answer their prayers or grant them new spells.

Does this mean that once they're destroyed, they won't accept their souls into their divine realms?

I was re-reading the Haunted Lands trilogy and was wondering if the tragic lovers depicted therein would find some peace in the afterlife.

Edited by - mastermustard on 15 May 2018 00:54:18

LordofBones
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Posted - 15 May 2018 :  04:40:38  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Unless the vampire lady in that trilogy converted to the worship of Evening Glory, she either ends up in the Wall of the Faithless or becomes a petitioner.

Greater undead, such as liches and willing vampires, probably end up as petitioners or are claimed by the evil gods they served in life; Bane, Velsharoon, Set, Talona, Kanchelsis and so on. Or the Wall, if you use that. Velsharoon probably claims the souls of arcane liches by dint of being deity of liches.

Forcibly-turned undead who redeem themselves return to their god. Those who don't are out of luck.
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TBeholder
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Posted - 15 May 2018 :  12:29:43  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Probably defined by whoever and whatever they follow at the moment, just like with everyone else.

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George Krashos
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Posted - 15 May 2018 :  15:23:10  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Do undead have souls?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 15 May 2018 :  15:28:02  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They are trapped in a box under the bed

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 15 May 2018 :  17:22:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Do undead have souls?

-- George Krashos



I would say the intelligent ones do. Liches are storing something in their phylacteries, after all.

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LordofBones
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Posted - 16 May 2018 :  11:52:59  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Do undead have souls?

-- George Krashos



Yes. Liches come to mind. Wraiths, ghosts, spectres and other forms of incorporeal undead seem to be souls tainted with negative energy and negative emotions.

Soul bind and trap the soul work on undead; the former requires a corpse, so I guess any undead that leaves behind physical remains qualifies.

Edited by - LordofBones on 16 May 2018 11:53:16
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Mi-Go
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Posted - 16 May 2018 :  13:23:16  Show Profile Send Mi-Go a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I do not recall where I read it from but many intelligent undead fear death because they are automatically sent to the Lower Planes, most likely even the Abyss due to Orcus being the founder of many types of sentient undead. So even if you were turned into a vampire against your will, you will soon have a very good reason to keep prolonging your unlife as the cosmos does not show you any mercy, no matter how you try.
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LordofBones
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Posted - 17 May 2018 :  01:53:34  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mi-Go

I do not recall where I read it from but many intelligent undead fear death because they are automatically sent to the Lower Planes, most likely even the Abyss due to Orcus being the founder of many types of sentient undead. So even if you were turned into a vampire against your will, you will soon have a very good reason to keep prolonging your unlife as the cosmos does not show you any mercy, no matter how you try.



Ghouls, vampires and liches all have deities of their respective kinds, so being sent to the Lower Planes probably isn't that big of a hassle.
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Storyteller Hero
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Posted - 17 May 2018 :  07:09:28  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It may be worth noting that the various gods of death may have different rules by which they judge souls, including the souls of undead.

An undead that is destroyed is typically no longer undead but simply dead, and undead are not necessarily evil creatures.

Kelemvor in his most current form would probably judge fairly rather than simply sending a soul to damnation for having experienced an unliving body.




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sleyvas
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Posted - 17 May 2018 :  13:24:58  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As I view it, yeah, their souls aren't destroyed (unless it says their souls are destroyed somehow in whatever way they're killed). In my viewpoint, actually DESTROYING a soul is near impossible, but rather say tearing down the connections its built to the negative material plane isn't as rough (in the case of some undead, this may be as simple as destroying its material body.... in the case of some incorporeal undead such as ghosts, its harder, which is why they tend to "reform"). The soul would go onto an afterlife just like everyone else; however, they may have gotten tainted by their time as an undead. Their whole lifeview may have shifted, and thus even if "when alive" they were wholesome people, but their actions as undead may have left them insane, evil, and/or simply unsuitable to go to the realm that they would have worshipped when alive. Much like demons and devils "perverting" humans to turn them evil so they can acquire their souls, such can be said for what happens to undead.

In fact, many demon lords may have becomes "gods of undead type X" or have created certain types of undead for this very reason (i.e. an alternate way of reaping souls). In fact, if we continue with the 4e logic that demons are tainted elementals turned to chaos and evil, it may be that these "elemental lords" who became "demon lords with ties to undeath" were tied to the "elemental plane of negative energy".

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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 17 May 2018 :  15:35:38  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm more interested in what happens to the souls of Drow when they die (in MTOF its said the Drow soul dies when they're body dies).
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 17 May 2018 :  17:11:05  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

I'm more interested in what happens to the souls of Drow when they die (in MTOF its said the Drow soul dies when they're body dies).



I will proclaim such a statement to be clear and obvious bunk. If drow souls did not go to an afterlife, there would be far less divine interest in them.

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LordofBones
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Posted - 17 May 2018 :  17:22:29  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

As I view it, yeah, their souls aren't destroyed (unless it says their souls are destroyed somehow in whatever way they're killed). In my viewpoint, actually DESTROYING a soul is near impossible, but rather say tearing down the connections its built to the negative material plane isn't as rough (in the case of some undead, this may be as simple as destroying its material body.... in the case of some incorporeal undead such as ghosts, its harder, which is why they tend to "reform"). The soul would go onto an afterlife just like everyone else; however, they may have gotten tainted by their time as an undead. Their whole lifeview may have shifted, and thus even if "when alive" they were wholesome people, but their actions as undead may have left them insane, evil, and/or simply unsuitable to go to the realm that they would have worshipped when alive. Much like demons and devils "perverting" humans to turn them evil so they can acquire their souls, such can be said for what happens to undead.

In fact, many demon lords may have becomes "gods of undead type X" or have created certain types of undead for this very reason (i.e. an alternate way of reaping souls). In fact, if we continue with the 4e logic that demons are tainted elementals turned to chaos and evil, it may be that these "elemental lords" who became "demon lords with ties to undeath" were tied to the "elemental plane of negative energy".



There aren't really that many demons with an affinity for undeath. Demogorgon created the most infamous of Oerth's death knights but has no particular affinity towards them, Thralhavoc lays claim to undead shadows, Zuregurex rules over undead that arise from drowning, Zivorgian is the demon lord of ghouls (which probably annoys Doresain), and Orcus was a human necromancer-priest.

Edited by - LordofBones on 17 May 2018 17:24:32
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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
207 Posts

Posted - 17 May 2018 :  21:24:16  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

I'm more interested in what happens to the souls of Drow when they die (in MTOF its said the Drow soul dies when they're body dies).


Do it say why?
I remember Cadderly summoned Drizzt Do'Urden's father so they could speak, and a google search and I found "Halisstra Melarn", from a book by Paul Kemp, Resurrection, where the Drow got turned into a demonic servant of Lolth after her death.
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sleyvas
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USA
7375 Posts

Posted - 18 May 2018 :  13:12:14  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

As I view it, yeah, their souls aren't destroyed (unless it says their souls are destroyed somehow in whatever way they're killed). In my viewpoint, actually DESTROYING a soul is near impossible, but rather say tearing down the connections its built to the negative material plane isn't as rough (in the case of some undead, this may be as simple as destroying its material body.... in the case of some incorporeal undead such as ghosts, its harder, which is why they tend to "reform"). The soul would go onto an afterlife just like everyone else; however, they may have gotten tainted by their time as an undead. Their whole lifeview may have shifted, and thus even if "when alive" they were wholesome people, but their actions as undead may have left them insane, evil, and/or simply unsuitable to go to the realm that they would have worshipped when alive. Much like demons and devils "perverting" humans to turn them evil so they can acquire their souls, such can be said for what happens to undead.

In fact, many demon lords may have becomes "gods of undead type X" or have created certain types of undead for this very reason (i.e. an alternate way of reaping souls). In fact, if we continue with the 4e logic that demons are tainted elementals turned to chaos and evil, it may be that these "elemental lords" who became "demon lords with ties to undeath" were tied to the "elemental plane of negative energy".



There aren't really that many demons with an affinity for undeath. Demogorgon created the most infamous of Oerth's death knights but has no particular affinity towards them, Thralhavoc lays claim to undead shadows, Zuregurex rules over undead that arise from drowning, Zivorgian is the demon lord of ghouls (which probably annoys Doresain), and Orcus was a human necromancer-priest.



Ereshkigal is also noted as a "lord of the abyss" in 2nd edition MM2. What is presumably her husband, Nergel, would also seem to have ties to death/undead.

I could also see beings like Bayemon of the unhealing wound (who severed but still living head is held by Kostchie) as having undead ties... maybe to Penangalan the weird bodiless vampires. There's probably others if I dig.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 18 May 2018 :  14:32:03  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I tend to view a soul as little more than an amount of positive energy that is imprinted with the memories of what it has achieved.
The positive energy allows things to live on the material plane.

When a creature dies that energy migrated (gradually and not altogether) to the outer planes where it is usually trapped.

Zombies and skeletons are long dead bodies animated by negative energy. Most of the positive energy is gone and the negative energy feeds off what is left.

Ghouls and ghosts are recently dead (killed by another ghoul) with a greater amount of positive energy remaining (enough to leave memory imprints).

Vampires are the result of negative energy infusing a host while it is alive, leaching off the positive energy. So the vampire has the memories and mannerisms of the living host but it is not the same as the original(I'm undecided if the positive energy is able to escape after being partially absorbed or if over time it is completely destroyed - and the vampire then becomes a vampire lord). The vampire of course supplements itself by draining energy from nearby victims.


Liches imprison the positive energy in a cage of sorts and gradually siphon it off to sustain themselves. Eventually the loch will have to murder other people and trap their "souls" thus becoming a demilich or turn to dust.


I don't think of the soul as anything special. It is just positive energy, which is the basic building block of life and can be used to make other living things (So demons and devils and angels take it back to their home planes to be transformed into other things or for other beings to consume and grow more powerful from it).
Gods gather these souls so they can gain power from them (the souls are gradually absorbed by the plane and thus the god).

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 18 May 2018 :  15:03:24  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The intelligent undead angle kinda precludes that approach, I think -- but if the soul was some sort of unaligned primal energy that could go positive or negative, that neatly fixes the issue.

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Storyteller Hero
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Posted - 18 May 2018 :  15:45:58  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

I'm more interested in what happens to the souls of Drow when they die (in MTOF its said the Drow soul dies when they're body dies).



I will proclaim such a statement to be clear and obvious bunk. If drow souls did not go to an afterlife, there would be far less divine interest in them.



Near the end of the War of the Spider Queen series, there's a procession scene of Drow souls heading off to the afterlife.




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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 18 May 2018 :  15:46:26  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't see a problem with intelligent undead. If positive energy (souls) can have intelligence and be reincarnated then why not negative energy (souls).

Living creatures have one kind. Undead creatures have another. The negative energy kind can feed off and absorb the positive energy kind, thus gaining some or all of its memories (depending upon the completeness of the absorption).

So a vampire inherits memories from its host but I'd tainted with negative energy and gradually becomes evil. A ghoul or ghast or shadow also inherits some memories from the host.

If there are any kind of spontaneously formed undead (ones that do not require a body) or undead that had no sentience but later acquire it then why could it not be that the connection to the negative plane is increased enough for it to become sentient (much like an awakened tree or fox).
Do trees have souls? If not because they are not intelligent then what about an awakened tree. If awakened tree has a soul then did one get stolen from somewhere or Is it that when the positive energy in a being becomes great enough they become self aware and intelligent and able to store memories like a human.

I'm fine with negative energy behaving like positive energy in every way except that it has to feed off positive energy when in the material plane (which is mostly positive aligned).

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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 18 May 2018 :  21:18:23  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

I'm more interested in what happens to the souls of Drow when they die (in MTOF its said the Drow soul dies when they're body dies).



I will proclaim such a statement to be clear and obvious bunk. If drow souls did not go to an afterlife, there would be far less divine interest in them.



Near the end of the War of the Spider Queen series, there's a procession scene of Drow souls heading off to the afterlife.



Yeah, the drow used to get an afterlife, then there was a rumor going around about MToF stating that drow souls basically "poof" when the body dies. That rumor has somewhat been quelled, but the statement I heard is vague, saying simply "they go to other planes", which to me is still lame, as that changes a lot of drow lore. The fate of Eilistraeens is "uncertain", and I haven't heard anything about Vhaeraunites. This changes things for Lolthites, too, as priestesses want to be rewarded in the afterlife as much as they do in their present life. I guess the default of "other planes" would be the planes of their respective gods, but it's still a lame explanation to me.

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TBeholder
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Posted - 18 May 2018 :  23:11:06  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

saying simply "they go to other planes", which to me is still lame, as that changes a lot of drow lore. [...] I guess the default of "other planes" would be the planes of their respective gods, but it's still a lame explanation to me.

Normally (Planescape) those not devoted to specific deities/religions/certain philosophical systems automatically become petitioners on the plane fitting their alignments.
Deities are more important in FR than on most Prime worlds. Presumably just Faerūn with its pantheon, not Realmspace or Toril, since we know in most other places people are more lax on this matter, and the locally worshiped gods don't raise this issue.
quote:
Originally posted by Mi-Go

I do not recall where I read it from but many intelligent undead fear death because they are automatically sent to the Lower Planes, most likely even the Abyss due to Orcus being the founder of many types of sentient undead.

Or simply because most undead are evil and if they have gods at all, often follow those that reside on Lower Planes anyway.
Again, there would be much more frantic motions if this was a big deal, especially among the elves who can revive the undead in a single step. And at very least Mystra would grant her priesthood a spell to this end, rather than only using it as a reward and to nudge a very surprised baelnorn to shake the dust off and become more politically active.

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LordofBones
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Posted - 19 May 2018 :  13:20:02  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's still not as bad as what happened to the poor gnolls.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 19 May 2018 :  15:50:33  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

That's still not as bad as what happened to the poor gnolls.



I still have issue with the Volo book saying that hyenas can spontaneously become gnolls.

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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 19 May 2018 :  18:10:37  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

saying simply "they go to other planes", which to me is still lame, as that changes a lot of drow lore. [...] I guess the default of "other planes" would be the planes of their respective gods, but it's still a lame explanation to me.

Normally (Planescape) those not devoted to specific deities/religions/certain philosophical systems automatically become petitioners on the plane fitting their alignments.
Deities are more important in FR than on most Prime worlds. Presumably just Faerūn with its pantheon, not Realmspace or Toril, since we know in most other places people are more lax on this matter, and the locally worshiped gods don't raise this issue.



Well, that is true on FR, too. A petitioner without a specific patron deity would go to the realm of the deity best aligned with their ethics and moral outlooks. But they seem to be intentional vague about the drow in MToF, at least from what I've heard. The fate of E's followers, for example, is "uncertain", whereas before, they of course went to Eilistraee.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 20 May 2018 :  11:59:39  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

That's still not as bad as what happened to the poor gnolls.



I still have issue with the Volo book saying that hyenas can spontaneously become gnolls.



Spin it... they're a kind of lyncanthrope which can only infect gnolls. So, the people that "saw" it happen were confused. Basically another variety of wolfwere.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 20 May 2018 12:01:36
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