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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1061 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2018 :  16:02:37  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hey guys, I need a help with something you were talking about in other topics. Besides the Old Empires and the Lost Empires of Faerûn sourcebooks, which other sources exists about Thayd?

Thanks

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2018 :  21:58:12  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think any.

I see people bringing him up all the time, and I am always like, "who the hell is that?"

Unless I have a HUGE, gaping hole in my Realmslore, I think the guy was always meant to be 'a footnote' in history, and people keep trying to make him out to be so much more.

But then again, Thay isn't one of my favorite subjects. I never kept up with any of the lore on the place. I just got that whole 'Mordor' vibe right at the beginning and then just ignored it, because I found so many other things so much more interesting.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7063 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2018 :  02:15:01  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Hey guys, I need a help with something you were talking about in other topics. Besides the Old Empires and the Lost Empires of Faerûn sourcebooks, which other sources exists about Thayd?

Thanks



There's some stuff in the Ask Ed scrolls that I've tried to give pointers to over time. Basically, there was a handout he gave at a gen con about Escalthar and the formation of the Zulkirate. Then, there was some other ask ed that I can't find the original for, but here's what thehoodedone said

Originally posted by The Hooded One

Hi again, all.
Thauramarth, Thayd survived as an undead sentience (perhaps unique; Ed hasn't said) that could possess living bodies (mammals of all sorts), but "burned them out" rapidly (a matter of two tendays at most). He clung to the company of his lieutenants . . . but eventually vanished, either destroyed by one of them or "lost" when a body burned out "under him" when he couldn't reach another to attack it...or for some other reason or cause, that PERHAPS has him lurking to this day, awaiting a chance to rise again...

So saith Ed, paraphrased by me.
love,
THO


That almost sounds like a Suel Lich, except that its burning through bodies FAST (I think a Suel Lich burns through bodies at triple the aging rate.... which would mean he should have been able to exist in bodies for years). However, a Suel lich must possess a body at least 15 levels less than his own.... so, if we were to guess that Thayd was maybe 35th level, that would mean he'd have to possess a level 20 character. Maybe this is why he was burning through bodies. It should be noted that these bodies could be anything according to the description (so he could possess a 20 hit die dragon, etc...)..... hmmm, in fact, that adds an interesting idea to the one Zulkir that betrayed him who is known as "the Dragondevoured" now.

Beyond that... there's the entries in GHotR. I think that's it.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7063 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2018 :  02:51:13  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and I just found both of those original quotes from thehoodedone from Ed on this page

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13186&whichpage=80

I should note that usually "new lore trumps old" and in dragon 339 they update the suel lich to 3rd edition (or 3.5) and its a LOT less forgiving on the level difference. However, let's keep the nasty nature and force Thayd into a dragon.

Huh, and thinking about the above got me looking into rules for dragons in 2nd edition. I never realized that blue dragons had more base hit die than reds in 2nd edition. I could definitely see Thayd in either a blue or red dragon.... however, he could take over an even younger gold dragon to survive.... but let's say it was a red... and let's pretend he was say a level 33 wizard in 2nd edition... so he'd need a Very Old Red or an Old Blue.

Now, I'm going to throw some spin on that because of something I'd been looking into. In 1018 DR, the Cult of the Dragon turned on one of their own and attacked Peleveran. Seemingly this same year, dragons went nuts all over Faerun. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say there was a Rage of Dragons caused by the King Killer Star in 1018 DR. What if Thayd were possessing a dragon when the dragon rage hit? What if he were drawn to Peleveran? What if he died there and had to possess a human which he was rapidly burning out.... and he sought out the dark pit of maleficence in Peleverai.... because he knew that he could make the pit open onto the place known as the Wells of Darkness and Shattered Night (i.e. he could get BACK to where he was a vestige.... better trapped than destroyed).

Why do I like this idea so much? Because I was trying to figure out some way to have Jorgmacdon Odesseiron, the first Zulkir of Conjuration, be entrapped in Peleverai and get freed by red wizards on Abeir. I kept picturing him and Thayd both coming here together. However, if he came here to "rescue" Thayd... its even better. Even moreso if I make Jorgmacdon both warlock and wizard and use my own rules for warlocks known as "Occultist Binders"... and thus have Jorgmacdon know that Thayd is a vestige because he contacted him as a vestige.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1061 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2018 :  10:23:54  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I was asking because I'm searching sources to create an article about him in the wiki, so, at least for that purpose I must stick to canon. However, I do like the ideas of the suel lich for my personal take on the Old Empires (I'm about to end my take on Tymanther in the 1491... I'm just struggling with the war with Unther).

I guess I can use Ed's stuff, because is canon until proven otherwise.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7063 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2018 :  12:38:47  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, I was asking because I'm searching sources to create an article about him in the wiki, so, at least for that purpose I must stick to canon. However, I do like the ideas of the suel lich for my personal take on the Old Empires (I'm about to end my take on Tymanther in the 1491... I'm just struggling with the war with Unther).

I guess I can use Ed's stuff, because is canon until proven otherwise.



When you do mention Suel Lich, perhaps make sure to say "like a", because we don't necessarily want to tie him to the Suel (and Suel liches actually timeline wise come much later than the destruction of Imaskar).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1799 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2018 :  13:50:48  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thayd is mentioned in the following sources:

Old Empires: P.3 / P.5
Lost empires: (same information regurgitated)

GHOTR -1087 DR, -1081 DR (straight from old empires)
Note: There were multiple versions of this. In 1 there is also an expanded description of Thayd that has him looking pretty damn undead and not even a little human at that time too. This is what that says (Note the format is a Mulhorandi history so one could argue this is Mulhorandi propaganda, not "truth", I would argue this because it makes Ed's history VERY hard to work in.:

–1081: The Capture of Theurgist Adept Thayd
The following excerpt is taken from the Book of Ratep, First and Only Incarnation of Great Pharaoh, First Words of the Holiest of Holies.

The Theurgist Adept Thayd studied the lore of the Great Enemy Enslavers and armed himself with their arcane weaponry, hoping to use their wicked power against us. But in so doing, he himself became enslaved to their blasphemous powers, and he began to commit atrocities as horrid as any of theirs. Mayhap a time had existed when he could have been redeemed from the wickedness that ultimately consumed him, but he soon began infecting his followers with his heresies, and he freely shared the secrets of the Enslavers with them. Their spells of thunder and lightning laid many of our glorious servitors low and left even more maimed, blinded, and deafened. Such was the merciless evil of the profane Thayd and his arcane disciples. Left to his own devices, he would surely have enslaved the righteous and put our people in shackles once again. Eventually Thayd’s wanton disregard for the power of life and the divine made it clear that his evil had to be vanquished so that maat could be restored.

It was the divine that ultimately saved the Mulan from the arcane evil of the Imaskari. The power of our gods hardened our muscles into steel and made our khopeshes shine with holy brilliance. With such weapons were the blasphemers laid low and brought to justice, proving that faith in the divine can always overcome trust in the arcane. Thus it was and shall be for all time—a truth as eternal as our empire under the sun. — TC

Edited by - The Masked Mage on 21 Jan 2018 14:06:49
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1799 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2018 :  14:04:00  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In the OLDER histories (Ed's) Thayd was part of the creation of Thay. You mentioned our discussions so I assume you've seen what I have to say about that. I know of two times this has been referenced here, but can only find one, included below. Perhaps Wolly knows where the other hides.

quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

TIYARRA ZULKIRATE (= Of the History/Lore of the Zulkirs)
{Ed Greenwood, 1991}

The zulkirs began as Thayd’s inner circle of trusted “loyals” (in their hearts, most of them were anything but, but only one—Ilkrim Hlannadar, better known to Thayan folklore as “the Dragondevoured,” thanks to Thayd’s swift and ruthless reaction to his treachery—ever dared defy him openly). These “loyals” served the founder of Thay as his personal lieutenants, who led Thayan warbands, acted as his messengers, enforcers, and assassins, and helped keep Thayd the dominant wizard in the northern lands wrested from Mulhorand and Unther, and home to many independent mages of power, until the realm of Thay was consolidated.
Originally there were seven zulkirs, then six and five through battle losses. It was only after the death of Thayd that their numbers became set, and linked to specific “schools” of wizardry.

When Thayd fell, a bitter struggle for power followed, in which scores of ambitious wizards perished. Eventually the survivors, brought to reluctant obedience by threat of being trapped in the “Escalthar’s Everlasting Curse” spell that would shapechange them every few breaths, uncontrollably, for the rest of their lives, met with the wizard Escalthar (who had devised that spell, and cast it upon most of those survivors) atop Laltharr, a bare crag (later blasted to rubble in a spell-duel) in southwestern Thay.
This moot later became known as the Council of the Black Star (after the black star mage-sigil used by Escalthar). At the Council it was agreed that there would eight zulkirs, each of them a master of a school of wizardry: Abjuration, Conjuration, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, and Transmutation. (Over the years, the zulkirs of Thay have been almost exclusively Thayan, and male humans, but no zulkirate has any formal requirements of residency, race, or gender.)

Outsiders have been told different wild tales about this or that zulkir, or how the ruling structure of Thay came about, but this is—so far as Mystra has confirmed—the truth.

Elminster and Khelben believe they have uncovered evidence that Escalthar—who mysteriously vanished, shortly after the Council, and has never been seen since (though there are many rumors and fear-whispered tales, down the years since, of his being seen by dying Red Wizards or watching crucial events in the unfolding governance of Thay) was either the god Azuth in disguise, or a pawn of Azuth at the time of the Council, but neither Azuth nor Mystra will confirm this. According to the Old Mage, the two deities, whenever asked about such matters, “merely smile.”

Only Szass Tam has held office (formally, “zulkirate,” though this term has been rarely used in the last two centuries) among the zulkirs in any consistent manner since 1300. The “First Zulkirate” or initial eight zulkirs, appointed at the Council in the autumn of 1030 DR, were:

Hahlomede Teeos (Abjuration): known as “Blackwyrm” for his everpresent tattered black robes and cloaks, that rendered him immune to dragon attacks and made dragons actively avoid him, Teeos loved to act mysterious and to track down lost treasures, old magics, and deceptions, this last sort of hunting quickly making him very unpopular with many Thayans; he became the feared, tireless, and increasingly hated “investigator” of the First Zulkirate

Tlantros Tulhoond (Conjuration): an aloof, private man who feared attack at all times, and was therefore always ready for battle, with schemes and “hanging” spells galore ready as both defenses and deterrents, in addition to the monsters he could magically whisk from elsewhere to his side; a sophisticated lover of music, wines, subtle behaviour, and “refinement” who opposed Thay’s ever-greater reliance on slavery and the plundering of its resources at the expense of rejuvenating the land (he hated mines and quarries, preferring that Thay take what it needed from other lands by conquest or magical seizure and transportation)

Zarhandro Laeluth (Enchantment): a fat, jovial man who deceived his fellow zulkirs—and everyone else he had any contact with, in life—as much as possible; made frequent use of doubles to make it appear that he was in one place while he was busy in another; often bubbled with gleeful laughter as he tricked or slew or took cruel revenges; trusted by very few, and feared by many, especially tharchions (whom he was known to have personally slain scores of, over the unfolding years, many by torture); a hedonist who loved exotic foods and long, gluttonous feasts

Dlueae Sharshyndree (Evocation): the first female zulkir, Dlueae [pronounced “Dul-LOO-ay”] was a curvaceous woman with a melodious voice and alluring walk—who also had a coarse-featured and mannish face; she “had to shave like a man” and had acquired several disfiguring facial scars in her youthful adventuring career, and as a result customarily hid her face behind full head masks, which she sometimes augmented with a warrior’s battle-helm; a bold and calm battle-leader and a good tactician, she served Thay well in warfare and built ever-increasing influence over her fellow zulkirs, both by taking them as lovers and befriending them with aid and assistance for their personal projects, and by often stating and refining successful policies for Thay that she got her fellow zulkirs to support (and that they therefore took pride in); a mediator and peacemaker among her fellow zulkirs

Yaerind Mahl (Illusion): an inscrutable man of few words and fewer direct answers, stances, or clear statements, who customarily cloaked his true appearance with magical disguises, and preferred to spend much time roaming Thay appearing as various creatures, to spy and learn (and sometimes strike down treachery—which he widely defined as “anything he disliked”—where and when he found it); was the first zulkir to force many apprentices and dupes to pretend to be him, so they perished in attacks meant to slay him, so he could strike down those who’d thought they’d killed the Zulkir of Illusion; possessed a pair of golden lions (figurines of wondrous power) that hunted and slew at his command

Tarabbas Mroound (Necromancy): a tall, sardonic, cadaver-thin man who “disappeared into bones” at will, and apparently did so permanently, soon after being named zulkir, apparently of his own volition and not due to any attack launched by a rival or would-be successor; many Thayan night-rumors insist he lives on, still, watching over Thay and covertly bringing misfortune to those he dislikes, whilst aiding those he favors

Kulvur Naraelond (Transmutation): a sly, witty, smart-mouthed trickster of a man, handsome and acrobatic, who was trusted by few; most men loathed him, and most women found him irresistible; a hedonist who seemingly cared more for enjoyment of food, drink, lovemaking, and diversions—even elaborate pranks—more than anything else in life; made many foes very quickly, and did not last long in office (or life)



The only complete roster of the zulkirate known to outlanders (non-Thayans) after the First Zulkirate but before the 1350s DR, comes from an anonymous slave’s account, TWELVE WINTERS UNDER THE LASH, that was smuggled out of Thay in late 1300 DR. It gives a partial roster of the zulkirate, as follows:

Eldryn Lammaraster (Abjuration): an old, bitter, grim pessimist who saw treachery and would-be successors around ever corner, in every shadow, and behind every door—and prepared himself accordingly, between manyfold layers of defensive magics; his specialty was spells—many of which died with him—that had nasty counter-attacks built into them, triggered by their defensive activation and not by the caster having to trigger them

Balineth Skroun (Conjuration): a toad-faced, forbidding man who used intimidation and prepared “stage tricks” of magic to cow many a rival or defiant underling, Skroun hid well his deep love of Thay and his real loyalty to his fellow zulkirs; over time, became as trusted by his fellow zulkirs as any holder of a zulkirate has ever been, and with good reason; a true “team player” who looked ahead and acted for the betterment of Thay, beneath a surly public mask

Iyrith Telgahlagar (Enchantment): described as a darkly handsome, bearded man who was urbane, soft-spoken, and a master strategist and diplomat, the most dominant of the zulkirs through his skilled forging of alliances with his fellow zulkirs and among the tharchions and tharchionesses; ruthless in slaying rivals who act against him, often through spells delivered by bats that fly under his direction; once described by a Red Wizard as “Asmodeus among us,” and probably the closest of any individual to being the true ruler of Thay, at the time

Uldreth Korroth (Evocation): a grossly fat, lewd, aggressive man known for having layer upon layer of backup spells and schemes, and for being a jovial friend to all zulkirs, and a cruel, ruthless trickster to tharchions, tharchionesses, and all Thayans of lower station whom he had contact with; enjoyed frequent personal slayings of the “spectacular butchery” sort

Mahlind Yarrr (Transmutation): a short, dark-haired, slender man of very few words, who always dressed in crimson robes and was very efficient and a master of foreseeing or anticipating events, treacheries against him, and likely outcomes, and preparing for them; almost always on the “winning side” in policy disputes among the zulkirs, who made few fierce foes and enriched himself greatly with trade outside Thay involving manipulated agents and dupes, in sales of drugs and gems, and prostitution


So saith Ed. His mention of the 1350s DR of course refers to all the published Realmslore (FR6/DREAMS OF THE RED WIZARDS, RED MAGIC, and everything since) that has made the identities, activities, aims, and roster changes of the zulkirs of that era clear to all interested scribes.
So here you are . . . enjoy!
love to all,
THO

Hi again, all.
Thauramarth, Thayd survived as an undead sentience (perhaps unique; Ed hasn't said) that could possess living bodies (mammals of all sorts), but "burned them out" rapidly (a matter of two tendays at most). He clung to the company of his lieutenants . . . but eventually vanished, either destroyed by one of them or "lost" when a body burned out "under him" when he couldn't reach another to attack it...or for some other reason or cause, that PERHAPS has him lurking to this day, awaiting a chance to rise again...

So saith Ed, paraphrased by me.
love,
THO



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