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Corruption
Seeker

19 Posts

Posted - 13 Jan 2018 :  11:41:21  Show Profile Send Corruption a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Is it possible for members of a current Pantheon to make a small sub-pantheon away from their main one.
For example, could Bane and his followers take over an area, and worship him and his servants under different names, as a closed Pantheon? This would possibly mean expanding their Domains. For example: Bane would be the God of Rulers.
Hoar could be the God of Judgement.
Beshaba would be Luck as a whole.
Loviatar could be a range of things, from Punishment, Labour, and pushing someone to their limits to improve them.
Talona could have Potions as a whole.
Abbathor as the God of Riches
Kuraulyek could have Underdark, or Fliers

This would allow them to use the new identies to gain more Domains, which could then be used to re-enter the Furian Pantheon a few generations down the line as some Masks of theirs.

It would also secure a worshipper base for them that others don't know about. After a few generations, the people being forced to worship them won't even know who their Gods really are.

When all, even Gods, must die, then live a life worth living

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6988 Posts

Posted - 13 Jan 2018 :  15:33:54  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The question is kind of misleading, because it wouldn't be in the hands of the gods. It would be in the hands of the mortals. THEY are the ones with free will. So, if some mortals chose to say ONLY worship Bane and forced all other priests out of their area OR slew them, then yes, in that area in theory Bane could setup another aspect of himself IF he could convince the mortals somehow that his name was now different. The problem then becomes that he has separated out this area in the name of Bane, and NOW he tries to institute a heresy within his own church, which will inevitably split his church into say the Orthodox Church of Bane and the Transformed Church of Baene (sound familiar?), and the two sides will try to kill each other off (now this kind of holy war sacrificing his own worshippers will give him temporary power boosts but are not good long term).

In fact, looking at the above example, we have that whole thing with there being a LOCAL Bane and the Bane that's from the dawn wars time period..... that whole concept that we came up with the "Mellifleur" collective would very much fit with both Bane and Bhaal... as both are DEFINITELY names that we're seeing in similar types or roles in the multiverse (Baal being presented as a demon in some lore.... but in other lore he's also equated to Hadad who is equated to Ramman, who is essentialy a storm and fertility god). So, by that I mean, ritual is performed to elevate them to godhood, but said ritual is corrupted by an entity which tries to absorb this beings powers unto itself and change its name so as to transfer any worship energy they create unto itself. So, in essence, maybe Bane wasn't called Bane... maybe his name was Ganaestehl (just for this argument), and he performs a ritual to draw down the power to transform himself into a demigod of Tyranny.... and the ritual reaches out to the multiversal "god collective" named Bane.... and that "Bane Collective" reaches in and absorbs the power that Ganaestehl has collected, absorbs Ganaestehl's intellect and memories, and then performs an epic piece of magic that makes everyone in the world remember Ganaestehl as being named Bane (as well as changing any written word to the same effect). Just to note, we've seen two instances of similar effect with Orcus and Kiaransalee (both intended to remove them). This might be a danger for mortals who try and raise themselves up to godly status, and one not well known, and perhaps some gods absorb the intellect but allow the name to foster (similar to what Talos did to Malyk and possibly TRIED to do to Velsharoon.... in fact, Velsharoon using artifacts of multiple gods of undeath in HIS ritual may have been why no one deity could claim him... they all tried to swarm him and jammed each other up)

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 13 Jan 2018 :  15:53:21  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The question is ill-defined as to what in this context counts as "pantheon", "make", etc.
E.g. does count as an example, and why:
- the "Dark Seldarine"?
- Durparian sub-pantheon (Curna is Selune, Zionil is Gond, Torm is the same, and Waukeen probably came from there)?
- League's Pantheon in Al-Qadim (4 common Enlightened gods + 1 local, but the rest are banned)?

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Corruption
Seeker

19 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2018 :  02:42:34  Show Profile Send Corruption a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'll rephrase it:
Here are the basic ideas:
A Closed Pantheon has the people worshipping just those Gods, unlike an Open Pantheon where people can worship many Gods.
No two full Dieties in a Pantheon can have Portfolios that are too similar.
Gods can use Masks and Aspects

What if a small group of Dieties established a colony of people who honored Aspects of the Gods under the Aspect's name? Have the stories interlinked, to make a Pantheon in it's own right, and let the old names be forgotten.
For example, Bane's aspect would easily be the God of Leadership and Rulers, as Tyrants are Leaders and Rulers.
The majority of the people taken there could be slaves who are under a spell not to preach of other Gods.

The reason I am saying a small pantheon instead of a sub-pantheon is because this way they can expand the closed pantheon's Domains without running afoul of the rule that prevents any 2 full dieties in a pantheon having too similar Portfolios. They could get their own Diety of Magic. Hoar could become a God of War again if he chose. (He used to be one under another name long ago) Bha'al might join and become the God of Death as a whole, not just murder.
On a side note, it is intereting that the Dark Seldarine does not possess Portfolios very similar to those of the Seldarine. This may indicate they are actually a sub-pantheon.

When all, even Gods, must die, then live a life worth living
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3141 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2018 :  04:08:01  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-So, basically your situation is this:

A group of people worship what they think are different deities, but in actuality, it's just one deity. XYZ is a seen as a wise warrior king deity, but instead of worshiping him as XYZ, they think he is multiple deities. Their god of leadership is just XYZ, unbeknownst to them, with an emphasis on his leadership qualities. Their god of wisdom is just XYZ, unbeknownst to them, but with an emphasis on his wisdom. Their god of war is just XYZ, unbeknownst to them, with an emphasis on his his blood-thirst. And so on.

Would that deity then gain the portfolios of leadership, wisdom, and war if he didn't have them already? The way I see it, you could go about it two ways.

Situation A: No, XYZ does not gain those portfolios. Even though the people think they're worshiping various gods and goddesses, at the end of the day, they're still just worshiping XYZ. His qualities as XYZ are close enough to the specific things people are worshiping that he wouldn't gain those portfolios.

Situation B: So many people worship XYZ as different gods and goddesses that XYZ actually begins to break apart, "giving birth" to those deities. In that case, XYZ is forgotten and his "children" take his place, forming an actual pantheon in which they would gain those portfolios.


Personally, I would say no. Even though people are worshiping different qualities he has, XYZ is still XYZ at the end of the day.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Corruption
Seeker

19 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2018 :  10:32:14  Show Profile Send Corruption a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Isn't situation B like what happened in Chult with Ubtao?
One god faking being an entire pantheon would be a bit much. There are many small pantheons. The orcs have only 5 Dieties.
Just get a small number of Dieties, and they can expand among their followers without competition.
For example, imagine a minor Demi-God of, let's say, Runes. The God may know a lot of other magics, but is limited to Runes. In the mini-Pantheon, it may become the God of Magic as a whole.
A Demi-diety of cats may become the Diety of Hunters.
A Demi-Diety of Illusion may become the Diety of Deception.
Hunters and Magic are clearly taken in the main Pantheon.

An Exarch may become a Diety, or a mortal may be raised up to fill an opening.

The position of one Diety in a Pantheon does not determine it's role in another Pantheon. However, there are ways around this. That allows the Dieties who made the mini-Pantheon to compete for Domain they could not before.

Of course, I am not even getting into if a Diety created a race, and made other Dieties for it, like the Halflings and others were.

Can anyone find anything that would stop the plan from working. I thinking of working into a game.

When all, even Gods, must die, then live a life worth living
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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
191 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2018 :  19:34:48  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Anything is possible, but is "closed and open" mean for people believing there is many gods outside it? Or closed "religiously?"

There is no compulsory belief others gods might be real, if one belong to an small secluded religion. Some versions of gray dwarves depict them as not believing the Moradinsamman have anything with them to do, that the other "dwarves" isn't related, just creations of "gods" envying the perfect creation of Deep Duerra! That belief would find the moradinsamman, imho, as deeply inferior as "gods". Possibly, not even gods? Just fakes? (Think how we understand Sauron's creation of the Orcs in Lord of the Rings!).
In a "limited number of real gods" pantheon belief, imho, no one would know their deities(s) even got other names or roles.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2018 :  20:04:11  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think there already ARE 'mini-pantheons' - the groups of like-minded gods we see working (and pictured) together in the old 'god' sourcebooks. I have dubbed these 'Karass' - a term stolen from Kurt Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle novel. A group of people (gods or not) that are connected together in some sort of cosmically significant way.

Homebrew:
These actual form the basis of pantheons - think of them as 'proto-pantheons'. Over time they grow, as the member-gods (think of them like 'private clubs') get more powerful, and gain underlings (like exarchs, who then join the Karass themselves). Eventually they become full-blown pantheons unto themselves (so long as they can convince people within certain geographic areas to worship the whole group, which is something these groups - even the 'good' ones - tend to always work towards. This is because they are stronger together, because there is a lot of cross-pollination of faith working in this manner. Also, just like RW clubs, you can be part of more than one, so long as the rules of any one doesn't forbid joining the other (Ya know, like a group called 'The Friends of Shar', and someone decides to go to a 'Mystra party' and hangout with the cool kids).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1243 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2018 :  11:34:52  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Domains and portfolios can be shared by multiple deities, as long as only one greater god holds sway over the others within that portfolio. So a mini pantheon can border themselves off of a divine realm as long as they reduce themselves to intermediate or lesser divine rank within that geographic area.

Creating a separate pantheon with aliases may work out for such deities if they can steadily grow their worship base. An renamed god could then eventually challenge the greater deity that holds greater power over the domain that the isolated one envies.

This is practically not done often, because the degree of insulation from the greater gods schemes required is nearly unobtainable because of a deities near omniscience. A greater deity hears, feels and remembers (more than lesser deities) through their faithful and has a sense for most of what happens pertaining to their portfolio several months before they happen. Greater gods don't hesitate to send their minions through vision and edicts to convert any wayward heretics in border lands seeking to isolate. So gods trying to fend off for themselves within small geographically isolated regions tend to have to deal with evangelist missionaries sent by their rivals.

My campaign sketches

Druidic Groves

Creature Feature: Giant Spiders
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6988 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2018 :  14:43:47  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd also note that while we think of the faerunian pantheon as one big whole, in truth it is kind of regionally separated. For instance, Savras is relatively unknown in Northwestern Faerun. Meanwhile, Lurue is generally not heard of south of say the inner sea. Talos and Bhaelros are supposedly the same individual, yet one is specific to Calimshan and its surroundings and appears to look like a genie with 2 eyes. I note here that I'm saying "generally", as there WILL be exceptions. Leira is strong in some areas and next to unknown in others. Velsharoon's worship would be similarly accepted in some cultures and not in others. Auppenser is generally only known in the areas that were once near Jhaamdath. Cyric is worshipped generally in some areas, Bane (or previously Xvim) in others. Worship of the elemental lords is common in some cultures and unheard of in others. Nobanion is little heard of outside of the western sea of fallen stars. Uthgar is confined to the north. Gwaeron Windstrom is seen little beyond northern faerun. Ulutiu is little known outside the frozen north. Siamorphe is little known outside of say Tethyr, Cormyr, and Waterdeep. Shiallia is confined mostly to the High Forest. Garagos is generally confined to the southern parts of Faerun.

I mention this because in these other areas, the people of Faerun hearing about some deity that we think of them "all as offering lip service to" may be entirely false, because the common person doesn't even KNOW about this deity in that region. This is kind of what was happening in Unther, Thay, and Chessenta for a while, because deities of multiple pantheons were accepted.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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