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 Another alternate Abeir and the Spellplague...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  04:08:59  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So this idea occurred to me, recently...

What if everything we "know" about Abeir and the Spellplague is wrong?

What if, instead of the partial melding of two long-sundered worlds, the whole rot about the Sundering and the Dawn War and all that, are all just PR and mortal misunderstandings?

Here's the thought: The world known to sages of the Realms as Abeir is not really called Abeir, and it's never before had any connection to Toril.

Instead, Abeir is the remnant of a shattered world called Leivaroth (a word I just made up). Leivaroth was once an ordinary world, but a war among its nations became a war among the heavens, and eventually led to the destruction of much of the world. The surviving powers of Leivaroth have banded together, seeking to rebuild their sundered home, now adrift in the cosmos (from being another layer of the Prime, it became a demiplane adrift in the Astral, like Ravenloft).

As these primordial powers are somewhere between mortals and true deities, they lack the power to recreate what was lost...

After eons of building their strength, and stealing small pieces of many Primes (again, like Ravenloft), they decided it was time to merge Leivaroth with another world, and turn that world into a Reborn Leivaroth.

The Spellplague was not caused by the death of Mystra coincidentally occurring just as Abeir coming into phase into phase with Toril...

Agents of the primordials had found their way to the Realms, and one of them made contact with Cyric. They promised him aid in slaying Mystra, and power once it was done -- but the true goal was for her death to have enough of a destabilizing effect on Toril for the powers of Leivaroth to effect an incursion into this ripe new Prime.

It didn't go as planned, though; their grip on Toril was weak. They were strong enough not to be dislodged readily, but not so strong as to readily remake Leivaroth. The damage caused by the initial merging of worlds was enough to weaken Ao, who had to spend considerable effort keeping the powers of Leivaroth at bay.

After a century, Ao had recovered enough of his strength to throw Leivaroth off of Toril, causing the shattered world to once more become unmoored and adrift in the cosmos. He then set about restoring much of the damage caused by the incursion, restoring much of Toril to its prior state.

----

The idea could be taken somewhat further, too -- perhaps much of the pre-Spellplague turmoil in the Realms was caused by the primordial agents, stirring things up and destabilizing the world.

----

This is all just a rough idea, and I don't know that I'll do anything with it. But it does appeal to me... I've never liked the Abeir retcon, and it's long bothered me that one death of Mystra causes such a huge mess, while other deaths of Mystra were smaller in scope. It's also long bothered me the way the Spellplague was a lot of "This happened everywhere! Except it didn't, really, it was more a random effect here and there!"

In my opinion, if we retcon the nature of the Spellplague itself, then we can do away with the retcons caused by the Spellplague -- if it was always two disconnected worlds, we don't need to suddenly say that the Realms has an evil twin no one knew about. Instead, prior lore is preserved, and all misconceptions are the fault of the self-proclaimed evil twin. It was propaganda. And any weirdness could be explained by saying it was the imperfect joining of worlds and the background struggles this caused.

----

Thoughts?

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 03 Jan 2018 04:09:30

Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  05:40:32  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like the idea... but I feel that is lacking in something. Perhaps a little bit of development for this new world?

I mean, I do like the concept of Abeir, but this seems to be a good alternative for the people that don't like it.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

This is all just a rough idea, and I don't know that I'll do anything with it. But it does appeal to me... I've never liked the Abeir retcon, and it's long bothered me that one death of Mystra causes such a huge mess, while other deaths of Mystra were smaller in scope. It's also long bothered me the way the Spellplague was a lot of "This happened everywhere! Except it didn't, really, it was more a random effect here and there!"


Well, is that the Spellplague it wasn't only the death of Mystra and the destruction of the Weave. That was only one piece of the master plan developed by Shar. The other plan was to seize both Weaves (normal and shadow), but all went awry when the portal to the Far Realm in the Supreme Throne, that nobody cared about, contaminated the "void" left by the Weave and bolstered Cyric madness, creating a new power source for magic: the Spellplague.

In other words, the Spellplague is an energy that comes from the Far Realm. That is why it changed everything it touched. And why the aboleths and other Far Realm evils were interested in preserving it.

Too bad that the cause of the Spellplague was only revealed in an LFR adventure, because it wasn't that all known by people. But I guess they didn't wanted to put that in a novel... people hated 4e, it was understandable.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 03 Jan 2018 05:44:49
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe

Canada
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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  06:34:31  Show Profile Send Balmar Foghaven a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, is that the Spellplague it wasn't only the death of Mystra and the destruction of the Weave. That was only one piece of the master plan developed by Shar. The other plan was to seize both Weaves (normal and shadow), but all went awry when the portal to the Far Realm in the Supreme Throne, that nobody cared about, contaminated the "void" left by the Weave and bolstered Cyric madness, creating a new power source for magic: the Spellplague.

In other words, the Spellplague is an energy that comes from the Far Realm. That is why it changed everything it touched. And why the aboleths and other Far Realm evils were interested in preserving it.

Too bad that the cause of the Spellplague was only revealed in an LFR adventure, because it wasn't that all known by people. But I guess they didn't wanted to put that in a novel... people hated 4e, it was understandable.



It all makes sense now! That sounds much better than the official explanation in most of the sourcebooks, which basically stated how Shar was all like "Oh Cyric darling, please murder Mystra for me so that I might claim the - oh wait, she was the Weave and now everything is shattered..."

"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline."
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  10:06:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would tie Shar to what Wooly proposed - that Shar was either one of those 'primordial powers' from Leivaroth, or better yet, the plan is much more ancient then anyone realizes...

The Gods War happened, whether you buy the whole 'Dawn war' thing or not, and the multiverse was put into turmoil. We'll never know how far-reaching it was, or what worlds were completely destroyed, but what we do know (in this version, not canon) is that many of those worlds - or what was left of them - got shunted into other planes. Or rather, became other planes. Many melded together - worlds caught in a fiery conflagration became the hells, etc. Thus the planer structure was born, not out of any sort of 'divine plan', but rather, the chaos that ensued when all semblance of order was abandoned. And in that time, Leivaroth was forced into The Far Realms... just a decaying husk of a shattered world. Finding the Obyriths, the 'gods' (primordial spirits as Wooly called them) told them about the other universe from whence they came, and using their combined power managed to reach it, by pushing a Shard of Pure Evil through the veil between universes. The purpose was two-fold - first, it would destabilize the D&Dverse with corruption, and second, it would also corrupt other 'gods' that happened near the shard, allowing the primordials of Leivaroth to gain access to another Prime Material world that wasn't pushed out of their old universe.

And the first such god was Selūne. Bright & beautiful Selūne, who sensed the darkness, and was drawn to it like a moth to a flame. Not fully understanding what it was, she reached out and touched the shard, and was driven mad, her mind splitting into two distinct personalities. So full was her insanity that she would even talk and fight with herself, and such was her power that it would appear to others as if there truly were two separate entities interacting. Her dark side - Shar - began an unconscionable plan to 'end this world'. What she didn't realize is that she was being 'programmed' by the shard, which was causing her to do things that would destabilize the fabric of reality and allow Leivaroth (and parts of the Far Realms, including the Obyriths) to slip through. She had an early victory, destroying the first sun, but Selūne quickly recovered, and struck down shar. In that brief 'time of darkness' the obyriths managed to slip through the cracks.. some called them the 'Shadvari' - but Leivaroth itself could not enter, its mass still too big to violate the cosmic barriers. Years and years went by - countless millennia - and Shar continued to plot and plan against her 'sister' (really, her sane half), until finally all of her plans culminated in the Spellplague. What she hadn't realized in her madness is that when Cyric struck down Mystra, she would also be struck down (she became temporarily depowered). The Weave (and Shadoweave) collapsed, leaving the universe vulnerable to outside incursions. Leivaroth would finally be able to come through, and merge with Toril, creating the Abeir-Toril ("Toril reborn" in Leivarothan). However, all did not go as planned. Without Shar pulling it through from her side, only bits and pieces of the world managed to make it over. And so, the legend of the 'world of Abeir' was born.

Some 'heroes' claim to have been to Abeir. Some claim to even have interacted with dead gods. Rather than allow any others to know what was truly going on (that the entire universe came to the brink of destruction because of one mad goddess), Ao sent those people to Untamo in his realm of dreams, where they dreamed fanciful stories that never truly happened. And when the dream was over, they returned home, thinking all had really occurred. Now that Ao has repaired the world (mostly), Leivaroth sits... and waits... it will have another opportunity. Selūne's madness will manifest yet again, and the work toward entropy - the decay of the 'universal barriers' - will continue.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jan 2018 19:52:56
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  13:55:36  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Love the concept, but the question in my head becomes does this truly and effectively get us what we want? I know at the same time, me personally asking that question can be a bit odd, as I've been proposing a lot of changes (i.e. putting cities in the Eastern Shaar that got built while in Abeir, restoring Soorenar, Cimbar and Akanax but with differing populations, turning the wizard's reach into a somewhat unified group, Ulgarth expanding while in Abeir, restoring numerous old archmages who have been presumed dead or who did die, etc...).

So, in saying the above, the one thing I am trying to do is restore a bunch of the previous, but changed somewhat. For instance, having Cimbar have a bunch of dragonborn as well as humans, but still an elevated city focused on freedom and enlightenment... having Soorenar become a polyglot of cultures and less "Chessentan" and more "power hungry"... having Akanax becoming warlike again, but with a mix of races and strong devotion to Ramman and Inanna (and there's already the city of Pandrick right next to it for those who want a humanocentric warrior city, which may hold to the old Assuran worship of Akanax... so religious conflict there). the Peleveran piece will be a little different in that I'll be trying to restore an OLD version of Unther kind of, mixed with arcane strength, but it will be in the Shaar and a polyglot of cultures there too, but at the same time, I feel like the eastern Shaar had nothing going for it and needed some development rather than just being blown up.

So, I guess the main question before pursuing down this path would be... other than an interesting change of story, how would you want to use this to improve the realms, because that's the main thing... not trying to fix the past history or doing an insta-retcon, but moving it forward as if something happened with those things that disappeared for a while.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  15:24:21  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To me, it improves the Realms by removing a retcon and making the Spellplague make more sense. The reason I can't stand the Spellplague as written is because it relies on a retcon that changes the history of the entire setting, and because there are so many inconsistencies and plotholes that it is utterly non-sensical.

I'm trying to put an alternate spin on it that keeps the changes to the setting without breaking the history and internal logic.

It is, admittedly, kind of a moot point, now, but all the recent talk about Laerakond and Maztica spawned this idea in my head.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 03 Jan 2018 15:31:31
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  20:13:25  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From an 'in-setting' standpoint, it changes almost nothing. It just makes it more palatable for some. I did use parts of the 4e/5e lore just so that other things would continue to make sense (else, we'd have to rewrite EVERYTING concerning the new lore).

If we leave out the Far Realms and just say its in some other plane (not sure which - maybe the ethereal would be best? It had no lore at all in 4e... I think it was retconed out completely... which we can use and tie it to the story), then we can do a 'conjunction' thing, like they did with the Grand Conjunction in Ravenloft, or what one of the most basic premises of the Eberron setting is.

Then we can use this 'destroyed world' as a basis for other things, like Sunderings, ToT's, Dawn Cataclysm. As a big fan of Flash Gordon and the (rogue) planet Mongo, I personally love this idea - a world that 'swings by' every so often and raises a ruckus. Of course, at that point its almost identical to the canon lore...

Except that we get to picture it as something a bit more complex (ie., 'interesting') then just some 'self-storage of the gods'. The Primordials of Leivaroth become very much like RL's 'Dark powers', which I believe is what Wooly was going for. It also means that when they work together (probably an extreme rarity, fortunately) they can pull things back & forth even without a conjunction, very much like Ravenloft.

So between RL, Leivaroth (Abeir), and maybe Fairie (which I still consider just a 'realm' within the Feywild, very much like how Ravenloft is a realm within the Shadowfell), we have three such possible 'fallen worlds'. Could Eberron maybe be another? Perhaps EB isn't getting 'revolved around' like the nucleus of an atom*, maybe Eberron is floating in its own planer fluid (Astral?) and is becoming coterminous with other planes? In other words, those other 'mini-planes' aren't moving around Eberron at all, but certain points of them (or rather, their 'parent planes') keep coming into contact with EB as it flys by. These 'collision points' will have then spawned their own demi-planes (I had to add that, because there is no way of aligning EB's planes with the known planer model - its too weird). The crazy thing is, some of this sounds a lot like Quantum physics theories about planer collisions (they cause 'Big Bangs' and spawn universes).

Athas could possibly be another. Any 'godless' world could work. Once the life-energy of a Crystal Sphere has been damaged beyond repair, the Gods of the sphere go from true deities to 'Dark Powers' (like EB's 'concepts', rather than actual, physical gods).


*EDIT:
As I was typing that, an odd thought struck me - what if Eberron's planer structure doesn't just look like an atom? What if it IS an atom?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jan 2018 20:29:13
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Lord Karsus
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USA
3166 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  21:00:42  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, is that the Spellplague it wasn't only the death of Mystra and the destruction of the Weave. That was only one piece of the master plan developed by Shar. The other plan was to seize both Weaves (normal and shadow), but all went awry when the portal to the Far Realm in the Supreme Throne, that nobody cared about, contaminated the "void" left by the Weave and bolstered Cyric madness, creating a new power source for magic: the Spellplague.

In other words, the Spellplague is an energy that comes from the Far Realm. That is why it changed everything it touched. And why the aboleths and other Far Realm evils were interested in preserving it.

Too bad that the cause of the Spellplague was only revealed in an LFR adventure, because it wasn't that all known by people. But I guess they didn't wanted to put that in a novel... people hated 4e, it was understandable.


-Wait, this is something that actually is said somewhere?

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  21:36:05  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

From an 'in-setting' standpoint, it changes almost nothing. It just makes it more palatable for some. I did use parts of the 4e/5e lore just so that other things would continue to make sense (else, we'd have to rewrite EVERYTING concerning the new lore).

If we leave out the Far Realms and just say its in some other plane (not sure which - maybe the ethereal would be best? It had no lore at all in 4e... I think it was retconed out completely... which we can use and tie it to the story), then we can do a 'conjunction' thing, like they did with the Grand Conjunction in Ravenloft, or what one of the most basic premises of the Eberron setting is.

Then we can use this 'destroyed world' as a basis for other things, like Sunderings, ToT's, Dawn Cataclysm. As a big fan of Flash Gordon and the (rogue) planet Mongo, I personally love this idea - a world that 'swings by' every so often and raises a ruckus. Of course, at that point its almost identical to the canon lore...

Except that we get to picture it as something a bit more complex (ie., 'interesting') then just some 'self-storage of the gods'. The Primordials of Leivaroth become very much like RL's 'Dark powers', which I believe is what Wooly was going for. It also means that when they work together (probably an extreme rarity, fortunately) they can pull things back & forth even without a conjunction, very much like Ravenloft.

So between RL, Leivaroth (Abeir), and maybe Fairie (which I still consider just a 'realm' within the Feywild, very much like how Ravenloft is a realm within the Shadowfell), we have three such possible 'fallen worlds'. Could Eberron maybe be another? Perhaps EB isn't getting 'revolved around' like the nucleus of an atom*, maybe Eberron is floating in its own planer fluid (Astral?) and is becoming coterminous with other planes? In other words, those other 'mini-planes' aren't moving around Eberron at all, but certain points of them (or rather, their 'parent planes') keep coming into contact with EB as it flys by. These 'collision points' will have then spawned their own demi-planes (I had to add that, because there is no way of aligning EB's planes with the known planer model - its too weird). The crazy thing is, some of this sounds a lot like Quantum physics theories about planer collisions (they cause 'Big Bangs' and spawn universes).

Athas could possibly be another. Any 'godless' world could work. Once the life-energy of a Crystal Sphere has been damaged beyond repair, the Gods of the sphere go from true deities to 'Dark Powers' (like EB's 'concepts', rather than actual, physical gods).


*EDIT:
As I was typing that, an odd thought struck me - what if Eberron's planer structure doesn't just look like an atom? What if it IS an atom?



I was indeed going for a kind of Ravenloft thing. The word Leivaroth was, in fact, created by starting with the words Ravenloft, Torg, and leech, and moving letters around. Leech because it's leeching off of other worlds, Torg because of the Possibility Wars RPG, and of course Ravenloft for it's established habit of stealing pieces of worlds.

You are correct that it changes nothing in-setting, it's just to make everything more palatable (particularly to me) and smooth out some of the many lore conundrums that the Spellplague created.

And the angle that this could be used for other RSEs and such was also deliberate. Who knows just how long the powers of Leivaroth were working on their incursion?

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  19:55:29  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, is that the Spellplague it wasn't only the death of Mystra and the destruction of the Weave. That was only one piece of the master plan developed by Shar. The other plan was to seize both Weaves (normal and shadow), but all went awry when the portal to the Far Realm in the Supreme Throne, that nobody cared about, contaminated the "void" left by the Weave and bolstered Cyric madness, creating a new power source for magic: the Spellplague.

In other words, the Spellplague is an energy that comes from the Far Realm. That is why it changed everything it touched. And why the aboleths and other Far Realm evils were interested in preserving it.

Too bad that the cause of the Spellplague was only revealed in an LFR adventure, because it wasn't that all known by people. But I guess they didn't wanted to put that in a novel... people hated 4e, it was understandable.


-Wait, this is something that actually is said somewhere?

I know, right?

That's pretty wonky. The whole reason why the Cerulean Wave was blue is because it was 'weave energy'. Although, I suppose we could respin it such that thats the color of Weave Energy as its burned-off (which even works for spellcasting and prior lore regarding the 'colors of magic').

In other words, as the Weave 'burned up' (picture the way a fuse burns, except add blue), the Xaos flowed in behind it and filled the gaps. Still not loving it though. The Spellplague was supposed to be about the return of the primordials - what did that have to do with the Far Realms?

Unless... the Weave was MUCH MORE than just a magical GUI... what if it was a containment field?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  20:08:01  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Unless... the Weave was MUCH MORE than just a magical GUI... what if it was a containment field?


-I'm pretty sure 4e retconned this, and I have no clue about 5e, so I'm just going to talk in 1e/2e/3e parlance, and if something needs to be corrected, go ahead and highlight it.

-Anyway, I mean, the Weave always kind of was a containment field of sorts. Raw magic was too powerful to be interacted with without frying yourself, so it was needed as an intermediary. All that pure magical energy was held back so that magicians didn't blow themselves up. If something existed that was as powerful and primal as raw magic, in theory, the Weave would've/could've prevented it from interacting with the material world. Could the Far Realm qualify? I mean, it is supposed to defy all logic and physicals and whatever else, so maybe?

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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1072 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  21:39:13  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Wait, this is something that actually is said somewhere?



In an LFR adventure named "The End and the Beginning". It was the last adventure of the Living Forgotten Realms program, and basically, canonically the last adventure released in 4e for the Forgotten Realms. The adventure takes place at the same time of the final battle between Netheril and Cormyr, and the fall of Mythdrannor (so, the events of the Herald novel).

In that adventure, when the characters defeat a Far Realms-warped Cyric (with the help of a weakened Mystra) and destroy the Order of the Cerulean Flame for good, the characters learn the truth of the Spellplague.

An excerpt from the adventure:

"Unfortunately, the opening of the Supreme Throne also releases Cyric. The true origin of the Spellplague is now revealed. It is Cyric’s madness made manifest, corrupted by the energy of the Far Realm, bathed in the release of all the world’s magic when the Weave was destroyed. Cyric’s murder of Mystra was abetted by Shar, who opened the way to the Far Realm at the crucial moment to ensure Dweomerheart’s destruction (believing that she could control the resulting cataclysm). Because the Far Realm is completely outside of creation, not even Ao’s power could have prevented the Spellplague once Shar’s plan was carried out.

A sharn is present to serve as a guardian of Cyric and tender of the gate to the Far Realm (unknown to the gods who created this prison), and several Thoon hulks are present as well. The Supreme Throne acts as a trap."

(Thoon hulks means the mind flayers of Thoon—a faction in the 3.5 Monster Manual 5—were involved in all of this)

Then, after Cyric and the sharns and mind flayers are defeated, the characters can decide if they want to restore the Weave and end the Spellplague once and for all, or allow the Spellplague to remain as the magical power source for Toril. The answer was left for the individual groups to choose in the adventure, the ending depending of that decision, but we know the canon answer... (if you chose the Spellplague, Mystra just disappears entirely, if you wanna know the alternative ending).

Some people say that the LFR adventures are not canon, though. But that adventure doesn't contradict with anything written in previous canon lore.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

The Spellplague was supposed to be about the return of the primordials - what did that have to do with the Far Realms?



Nope. The return of Abeir and the primordials was just the result of an ill-timed coincidence.

Even the FRCG (pp.50-51) says it outright:

"Some sages suggest that the two worlds have undergone periodic conjunctions ever since they diverged, but that these were too subtle for most creatures to notice. By an accident of timing, the Spellplague occurred during just such a conjunction, which caused the briefly overlapping lands to run athwart each other instead of passing in the night as before."

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 04 Jan 2018 21:48:47
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  22:06:09  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Conjuction or not, I always got the impression that the Spellplague resulted in collusion of Abeir and Toril. It could have been due to ill-timed coincidence, but the Spellplague could have influenced the severity of the collision, moreso than in the past, especially if the previous collisions were too subtle to be noticed. The collision that happened during the Spellplague was *not* subtle LOL.

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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
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Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  22:58:44  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My own personal take on the Spellplague (as how I use it in my Neverwinter campaign, that is), is that the Spellplague it was just a huge magical explosion that only would have blasted Halruaa, if not for the timing stuff and the portal stuff (it seems the Spellplague traveled across Toril, and perhaps affected Abeir as well, because some network of portals).

Without the conjunction of worlds, the Spellplague would only have affected Toril.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 04 Jan 2018 23:00:15
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sleyvas
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Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  00:39:27  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

My own personal take on the Spellplague (as how I use it in my Neverwinter campaign, that is), is that the Spellplague it was just a huge magical explosion that only would have blasted Halruaa, if not for the timing stuff and the portal stuff (it seems the Spellplague traveled across Toril, and perhaps affected Abeir as well, because some network of portals).

Without the conjunction of worlds, the Spellplague would only have affected Toril.



You just hit on something I was developing. Essentially, portals between Thayan enclaves daisy-chained many of the effects of the spellplague. Also, in my version, it wasn't JUST Halruaa that was casting the ritual that helped forestall the spellplague's damage. They were just the largest number of spellcasters to gain "sudden" knowledge of the ritual from Savras. Some of the other spellcasters involved were the Farseer (a 28th level mystic theurge of Savras) in the House of the All-Seeing Orb in Tashluta. Another was the Zulkir of Divination, Yaphyll Sirtula, who had split herself and sent a portion of herself into the future (due to a magical command from Szass Tam) where she foresaw the spellplague due to Savras and transferred herself to the city of Soorenar and began casting the ritual necessary to transfer that city (and Velsharoon's Tower Terrible within it) safely to Abeir. I placed a Thayan enclave in Tashluta and there's already one in Soorenar, and I setup a linkage from Tashluta's portal to Balduran Bay some other Chultan Peninsula red wizard enclaves, and back into Soorenar's, Cimbar's, and Hlath's enclaves.

I have included a non-official ruling in my games that shorter jump portals are more stable and cheaper to make than long-jump portals, and thus many red wizard enclaves would have these short-jump portals within a region. So, like Hlath, Cimbar and Soorenar had red wizard enclaves and were close, so they kept a "portal ring" between them. Similarly, up near Mulmaster there were several enclaves. I did the same with Samargol, Lundeth, and Tashluta on the Chultan peninsula.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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LordofBones
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Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  01:29:48  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
See, this is why Cyric should have been shanked by an angry coalition of greater deities. It's amazing that Faerun's greater powers let him get away with as much as he did, including letting him create a book that could make even gods believe that he's the greatest thing since sliced god-bread.
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Markustay
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Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  01:37:49  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

In an LFR adventure named "The End and the Beginning". It was the last adventure of the Living Forgotten Realms program, and basically, canonically the last adventure released in 4e for the Forgotten Realms. The adventure takes place at the same time of the final battle between Netheril and Cormyr, and the fall of Mythdrannor (so, the events of the Herald novel).

In that adventure, when the characters defeat a Far Realms-warped Cyric (with the help of a weakened Mystra) and destroy the Order of the Cerulean Flame for good, the characters learn the truth of the Spellplague.

An excerpt from the adventure:

"Unfortunately, the opening of the Supreme Throne also releases Cyric. The true origin of the Spellplague is now revealed. It is Cyric’s madness made manifest, corrupted by the energy of the Far Realm, bathed in the release of all the world’s magic when the Weave was destroyed. Cyric’s murder of Mystra was abetted by Shar, who opened the way to the Far Realm at the crucial moment to ensure Dweomerheart’s destruction (believing that she could control the resulting cataclysm). Because the Far Realm is completely outside of creation, not even Ao’s power could have prevented the Spellplague once Shar’s plan was carried out.
Myrkul: "Okay, Cyric, here's the last of my stuff. I'm going to be gone or awhile - I really needed this vacation. Don't touch anything, don't break anything, and don't forget to feed Cerberus. And whatever you do, don't touch my crown! ESPECIALLY the Black Diamond in the center of it. Cyric... CYRIC?! Are you listening to me? Don't touch the... Oh... crap. Whelp.... I'm outta here... good luck everyone."

No need to involve the Sharn (the Sharn and Phaerimm aren't supposed to be from the Far Realms, as far as I know).

I DO like the idea that the spellplague was more like a massive 'power surge', and the surge was carried through the portal network (the Road of Stars and Shadows), much like an electrical short-circuit. that makes a lot of sense. When such things happen in real life, it travels along, literally blowing-up transformers on poles. Its a really good analogy.

What I don't like is that Far Realms energy pouring in behind it. Can we just ignore the LFR stuff? WotC does. Considering the nature osf some of the 4e lore, it would be simpler just to say Cyric somehow interacted with the shard of Pure Evil (maybe he found that 'crack' in the universe those other three gods did).

Although I thought Matt Smith had fixed that... back on Tanzilor...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 01:39:10
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  02:09:53  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Sometimes LFR is/was canon and other times it isn't/wasn't. I'm pretty sure that during the 4e period, it was considered canon (I remember a lot of "it matters now" was used during the early campaigning to get people to sign up/play). Some 2e stuff, like Raven's Bluff and Malatra, also is, but I don't know if there was more stuff. During 3e, I have no clue, but I am leaning no.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  02:13:37  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Along those lines (the portals and power surges), the portals I'm talking about creating between enclaves would all be "young"/"fresh" portals. Comparing the concept to power surges is apt, and considering these portals kind of like "fuses".... these were brand new "fuses" with little "wear and tear" like many OLD portals of Faerun. So, as a result, they carried more load and still survived despite the surge. Many old portals however... many of which were already "faltering" mind you... they simply "popped" as a result of the spellplague.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  08:41:22  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Unless... the Weave was MUCH MORE than just a magical GUI... what if it was a containment field?


-I'm pretty sure 4e retconned this, and I have no clue about 5e, so I'm just going to talk in 1e/2e/3e parlance, and if something needs to be corrected, go ahead and highlight it.

-Anyway, I mean, the Weave always kind of was a containment field of sorts. Raw magic was too powerful to be interacted with without frying yourself, so it was needed as an intermediary. All that pure magical energy was held back so that magicians didn't blow themselves up. If something existed that was as powerful and primal as raw magic, in theory, the Weave would've/could've prevented it from interacting with the material world. Could the Far Realm qualify? I mean, it is supposed to defy all logic and physicals and whatever else, so maybe?
I was thinking more in terms of the Primordials there - I was thinking The Weave may have been an Uber-powerful Force-Field that Ao erected (around Realmspace) to keep the primordials 'locked away' (buried, comatose, trapped inside an asteroid in space, etc.) I always thought the runes written all over the inside of the crystal Sphere was the 'code' of Arcane Magic (so that was the physical manifestation of The Weave lining the Crystal Sphere), but now I'm thinking they were some primal runes or some-such that Ao himself put in place (and that Mystra may have added to later). Thus, the 'Weave' becomes the wall of a vast prison, and Ao, its Warden.*

Abeir-Toril was the original Hell. Or rather, Tarterus, where the 'Titans' were locked away by 'the gods'.
We don't have gods, we have jailers.


And another idea just slammed into my brain (its getting late, and I am SOOOO tired) - what if Sigil was supposed to be a prison for Estelar, except the Gods WON? Thus, the LoP is just another warden like Ao, except her prison - The Cage - was never filled.

*DAMMIT! I want to go to sleep, but another intriguing notion hit me as I was rereading the stuff above - what if the RAW Magic we are always hearing about is the energy of the Primordials? What if the Weave is designed to siphon-that-off, keeping them weak and contained? We are told The Weave is some sort of filter, because mortals can't handle 'RAW Magic'. Its not a damn filter - its a siphon!

The entire system of magic - the basis for the D&Dverse itself - is reliant upon keeping a race of ancient beings imprisoned, and using them as 'batteries' to power everything. It puts a VERY dark spin on all things religious, eh? So instead of jailers, now I've gone a step darker and I'm painting the Gods as 'overseers' on a cosmic slave plantation.

And when you are falling asleep, or just waking up, when you are in that in-between state of the land of the woke and the realm of dreams, sometimes you can hear the primordials screaming....

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 08:50:05
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  08:54:15  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ive already pegged the gods as parasites that use the souls of dead worshippers to feed themselves. The afterlife is a con. You die, your soul goes to their domain and it sits there being slowly drained until there is nothing left of you.

The weave is a containment field, but it is meant to protect those inside it (or at least it was). Without the weave, lesser beings are just burned up by contact with raw magic. Of course it also drains raw magic to feed itself (and that include primordials). I theorise that in modern faerun (1370) the weave has begun to drain more raw magic than can be replenished naturally. If the situation continues then the weave will collapse and faerun will become a dead magic world like earth.

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Bladewind
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Netherlands
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Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  10:36:05  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have heard several years afore that Cyric had some tentative connection to the Far Realm; I recall there was mention that he was talking to aberrant entities on his Throne prison, raving on about control of the power cosmic.

What's a new theory to me is that parts of the origin of raw magic/power cosmic are the emanations of primordial engines. This does work well for my cosmologic views, as it points to the reason Abeir/Leivaroth has such powerful spellcasting traditions; their natural world radiates the essence of magic outward from its primordial core, while Torils system captures the radiance from outside worlds into a life-giving weave.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  13:48:12  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was thinking more in terms of the Primordials there - I was thinking The Weave may have been an Uber-powerful Force-Field that Ao erected (around Realmspace) to keep the primordials 'locked away' (buried, comatose, trapped inside an asteroid in space, etc.) I always thought the runes written all over the inside of the crystal Sphere was the 'code' of Arcane Magic (so that was the physical manifestation of The Weave lining the Crystal Sphere), but now I'm thinking they were some primal runes or some-such that Ao himself put in place (and that Mystra may have added to later). Thus, the 'Weave' becomes the wall of a vast prison, and Ao, its Warden.*

Abeir-Toril was the original Hell. Or rather, Tarterus, where the 'Titans' were locked away by 'the gods'.
We don't have gods, we have jailers.


And another idea just slammed into my brain (its getting late, and I am SOOOO tired) - what if Sigil was supposed to be a prison for Estelar, except the Gods WON? Thus, the LoP is just another warden like Ao, except her prison - The Cage - was never filled.

*DAMMIT! I want to go to sleep, but another intriguing notion hit me as I was rereading the stuff above - what if the RAW Magic we are always hearing about is the energy of the Primordials? What if the Weave is designed to siphon-that-off, keeping them weak and contained? We are told The Weave is some sort of filter, because mortals can't handle 'RAW Magic'. Its not a damn filter - its a siphon!

The entire system of magic - the basis for the D&Dverse itself - is reliant upon keeping a race of ancient beings imprisoned, and using them as 'batteries' to power everything. It puts a VERY dark spin on all things religious, eh? So instead of jailers, now I've gone a step darker and I'm painting the Gods as 'overseers' on a cosmic slave plantation.



Yeah, that fits in with a lot of the ideas we've been positing of like the "artifact" beneath Amruthar that was being used by the red wizards until the ToT if it were some kind of primordial/god/fiendish lord/aberration/trapped archfey, etc.... It fits with the whole Glantri/Mystara model even though that was in theory some kind of nuclear reactor type scenario. I guess one thing that might be a good question is do the various "types" of magic come from different "types" of sources. For instance, is drow Faerzress from say earth primordials, whereas say whatever the artifact was in Thay was drawing off say a fire primordial or maybe a trapped fiend from fiery hell or something else. What about the "plangent crystal" or special Curna emeralds in Durpar related to Pandorym? What about Felliron? Is there some secret behind Adamantine/Mithril/etc... or certain trees... or King's Tears or bloodstone or other gems?

Hmmm, and one thing does come to mind in regarding the special artifact beneath Thay.... it was the Zulkirs of Evocation and Conjuration that in 1357 that opened up a portal to the plane of fire and allowed salamanders and efreeti through. Then the salamander war happened starting in 1357. The Salamander war took "OVER A YEAR" so it definitely extended into 1358. The Time of Troubles was in 1358, and that's when the artifact disappeared, and its also when we have documented that Kossuth appeared down in Chult using a firenewt as his avatar. Its also when Kossuth was involved with Zulkir Aznar Thrul (the new Zulkir of Evocation) in stopping the salamander war. I had previously wondered if said artifact had ties to Kossuth (and many other things mind you), and possibly the simplest answer is the easiest.

From 2e Spellbound
The struggle for the Priador (which came to be called The Salamander War) lasted over a year, pitting the ferocious salamanders against Thayan humans, gnolls, goblins, and Tam#146;s undead forces. The war (in which Hargrid Tenslayer perished) finally ended when the elemental tyrant Kossuth sent his own elementals at the request of the up-and-coming Red Wizard Aznar Thrul to drive out the salamanders. As a result, worship of Kossuth reached an all-time high in Thay, and the nation#146;s political face was changed forever.

For those not familiar with the artifact beneath Thay, noting its information, little that there is, below

From 2e Forgotten Realms adventures, page 127
Prior to the Time of Troubles, the Red Wizards wielded greater magical power than they do now. This was due in part to a magical artifact operating within the depths of Amruthar that extended power
to those pledged to the Red Wizards (this artifact became just one more pawn in the massive human chess games engaged in by the Zulkirs and Tharchions). During the magical chaos of the Godswar the device
was either deactivated, stolen, or destroyed; in any event, its benefits to the Red Wizards were lost.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
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Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  19:59:40  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I was thinking more in terms of the Primordials there - I was thinking The Weave may have been an Uber-powerful Force-Field that Ao erected (around Realmspace) to keep the primordials 'locked away' (buried, comatose, trapped inside an asteroid in space, etc.) I always thought the runes written all over the inside of the crystal Sphere was the 'code' of Arcane Magic (so that was the physical manifestation of The Weave lining the Crystal Sphere), but now I'm thinking they were some primal runes or some-such that Ao himself put in place (and that Mystra may have added to later). Thus, the 'Weave' becomes the wall of a vast prison, and Ao, its Warden.


Well, in fact the idea of using the Weave to trap the primordials was Ed's, just that is not canon. Is an idea he gave us to use Laerakond without all the Abeir shenanigans (also to explain why Laerakond was unknown until this time without using the Abeir stuff). Is in his "Questions" post for 2009, but I don't remember the exact page.

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Markustay
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Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  20:10:55  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The more I think about 'magical energy' like electrical energy, the more all of this makes sense. I mentioned yesterday (here or in another thread - they're staring to all blend together again) that the Spellplague was a 'cosmic energy surge', and just like a lightening-strike travels along electrical poles (and blowing out transformers along the way), so, too, did the Spellplague travel along it's own 'grid' - the Road of Stars and Shadows. Its just a Realms-specific variation on the idea of Leylines.

Now, when I said that, I hadn't really given much thought to the 'transformers' part, aside from saying that's why Halruaa blew-up (everytime the 'power surge' hit a node, there was an explosion - Halruaa was siting on top of the equivalent of a magical nuclear power plant).

But do you know what transformers do? I do - I took a year of computer electronics in BOCES. Transformers increase or decrease the voltage/amperage of the energy so that it can be used by smaller (less powerful) devices. You CAN'T plug your laptop directly into a nuclear power plant because it would fry. Computers use microamps. Between the power-station and the outlet you have transformers, which regulates the power into 'usable chunks'*. Ya know... just like The Weave does with RAW Magic.

The 'electrical grid' of Toril is the Road of Stars and Shadows, the 'poles' are the Gates and Portals (which act as transformers for the local power-grid), and the nodes below ground (Elemental, Faerzress, Chaos, etc) are also part of the grid, like we have areas where we have underground lines.

And just like electricity, where we have a negative and a positive, we have that with the Weave and Shadoweave, and just like with electricity, they are NOT two different things/energies, they are two sides of the SAME COIN (its actually cyclic, and positive is the 'in' and negative is the 'out', but this isn't the time or place for an electrical engineering lessen LOL). But you can get power to 'back-feed' through a negative (ground), and ground itself has current (something the gov't doesn't want you to know BTW - you can literally power devices just by sticking a wire into the ground - its about 3V, IIRC). Thus, the analogy remains intact, because Shar created a ground-fault and is back-feeding energy through the negative end (which is stupid - that causes 'decay' on everything else connected to the same circuit).

I can't believe I hadn't seen all this before - I was dancing around the perimeter of it for years. My eyes have been opened, all because of a story in a novel I never read. The primordials are being used as 'power plants' (like humans in The Matrix), and 'the Gods' are really just parasites... and so are we.

When someone 'travels' along a gate/Portal pathway, its like what happens in Star Trek - your are converted to ENERGY. Then you move-along the grid, and come out where you are supposed to (like making a call on a landline). Or like how The Atom presumably traveled through phone lines in old DC comics (impossible, BTW, and I knew that even as a child - I wonder if they ever retconned it to say he was becoming energy when he did that?) Elminster was one of the rare few who could 'move sideways' along the grid and come out somewhere else (so he was like one of those old-school phone operators you see in old B&W movies, where they pull plugs out of one hole and stick them in another).

So now we know why both Larloch and Halaster were studying the Gates (magical grid-system) - he who who controls the grid controls the power.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 20:15:30
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 06 Jan 2018 :  20:14:11  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I was thinking more in terms of the Primordials there - I was thinking The Weave may have been an Uber-powerful Force-Field that Ao erected (around Realmspace) to keep the primordials 'locked away' (buried, comatose, trapped inside an asteroid in space, etc.) I always thought the runes written all over the inside of the crystal Sphere was the 'code' of Arcane Magic (so that was the physical manifestation of The Weave lining the Crystal Sphere), but now I'm thinking they were some primal runes or some-such that Ao himself put in place (and that Mystra may have added to later). Thus, the 'Weave' becomes the wall of a vast prison, and Ao, its Warden.*

-Some of them exist outside of Realmspace, so that'll have to get a getaround.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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