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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1153 Posts

Posted - 10 Sep 2017 :  17:59:46  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
If the Mulan had to aquire iron knowledge from the Gold Dwarves, doesn't it suggest that the Imaskari didn't have that technology for the Milan to inherit.

So could Imaskar be a bronze, not iron age type civilization?

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 10 Sep 2017 :  18:10:12  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Im not sure the mulan were able to inherit from the imaskari.

The mulan were slaves and probably not well treated slaves. They may not have been educated or given anything but the most menial of tasks.

Then the godkings come along and shatter imaskari civilisation by destroying the capital. Chaos and rebellion ensue in almost all imaskari provinces and what is left are ruins and barbarian peoples.

So the mulan have to start from scratch and what they can learn from the imaskari (who may not have taught the mulan to read and write) ruins and left over scrolls of wisdom.


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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
659 Posts

Posted - 10 Sep 2017 :  18:16:02  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess that the Mulan didn't wanted to use whatever stuff the Ismakari had. Because Imaskar seems to be highly advanced civilization to be just bronze age.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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sleyvas
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USA
5818 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2017 :  13:02:17  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bear in mind too, bronze is easier to work as I understand it (could be wrong). The Imaskari could have been simply supplementing with magic.

That being said, I don't necessarily like that idea.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 11 Sep 2017 13:03:58
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14037 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2017 :  15:20:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In my musings (mostly the ones regarding the theoretical 'Dathites'), I have it where there were several other groups brought into The Realms, and the Mulan were treated like 'the bottom of the barrel'. Basically, they were used for manual labor, and not much else. And nothing technical - the Imaskari would not have wanted the largest group (by FAR) they brought in to have any sort of advantage if they revolted. Basically, they worked the farms in the Mulhor Marches, and not much else.

So the pecking-order would have been something like this

1) Muhjari-blooded Imaskar citizens
2) Anoque (theoretical) Imaskar citizens
3) all conquered, 'native' humans
4) 'Imported' humans and native humanoids
5) Imported humanoids

Of course, as in any slave-situation, you had some being treated way better than others, from 'favored pets' to a resource to be used up, even less important than farm animals, depending upon how 'enlightened' the owners/overseers were. Also, if my Dathites did exist (and that one piece of lore hints that they did), then perhaps some groups of slaves were used as the overseers for others, which could have created a lot of animosity post-Imaskar between groups (and why they broke off into several different nations, and why the Chondathans {Chessentans} felt they needed to travel so far west, away from the others). Thus, different groups may have different levels of 'expertise' (tech) than others.

Side Thoughts
So this got me thinking: In my Dathite musings I have it where the Imaskari were looking for a 'warlike' culture to import to do their fighting for them (kind of like the Unsullied of GoT - slave soldiers). The Dathites did not work out so well (a non-docile culture is NOT going to make for very good slaves). The people of Mesopotamia made excellent slaves because their own leaders were already treating them that way. In fact, when you think about it, their lot didn't really improve all that much even after the revolt. They just traded one set of owners for another.

So the thought just hit me - what if the Imaskari had opened Gates to other worlds, ones with even more warlike cultures? And what if they decided it was too risky to bring in large numbers of those, so they sealed those Gates? And what if Thayd knew about the gates, and opened a few of them later on?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Sep 2017 03:19:56
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1177 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2017 :  16:04:45  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the OP is on to something though, I see the scepter of the lord general of the Imaskari, the Fifth Imaskarcana, is a bronze scepter with a an emerald the size of a fist topping it (as the striking surface?).

Other tools of the Imsakari are described are an obsidion(!) greatsword, a lavender tinted metal crown, a shadesteel automaton.

Clearly the Imaskari worked metals magically, but they still used stone weapons enhanced with sorcery too. Some of the ironworks are done by neighbouring dwarves, such as Gate of Iron, but the scarcity of the metal made that gate an exeption to all the stonework that was usually done.

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Edited by - Bladewind on 11 Sep 2017 16:08:31
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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
127 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2017 :  23:13:16  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bronze & Iron age? Hmmm.
Depending on the origin of the Mulan. The Untheric Enlil is mostly rl bronze age, Marduk the Iron age replacement of Enlil, and Inanna is Bronze age. Several known Egyptian pharaos in real life, as Tut Ankh Amun, was too Bronze Age, and the gods Amun and Ra were still separate in the end of Egyptian Bronze Age. The Mulan could, if they were from an Earth clone, be lacking knowledge of Iron from before the slavery.

Dazzlerdal: you have no idea how menial and dirty it would be to do early Iron age or Bronze age smelting. What's more usual in the real life, is the knowledge is safeguarded and all is lost in big famines or wars. Both is wery good examples of work for slaves! (and Historians/Archaeologists!)

Interesting idea, though I do not know much about Imaskar, the images in Lost empires of Faerun seems to show iron weapons.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14037 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2017 :  03:39:28  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, look at it this way - it may NOT have been a 'tech' thing. We are talking about a group of people who could go all over Faerûn, and to OTHER WORLDS, all of which had other races that had been working other metals for thousands upon thousands of years. The idea that Imaskari couldn't use metals beyond bronze is preposterous, considering everything else they accomplished.

So two caveats, and I personally think the second one is more important:
1) When you are THAT GOOD at magic, the material actually doesn't matter. You could probably craft a dagger made of jello that would be better than anything a blacksmith could make. The Imaskarkana are ARTIFACTS - what they are made of is inconsequential. Maybe they just liked the way bronze looked (or had developed a magical technique for making it better than steel). There does seem to be far more copper available in the Taan region than Iron, which brigs me to #2...

2) I hate to bring this up yet again (NO I don't LOL), but the Imaskari seem to have gotten at least a portion of their magical tech from The Fey... a race that iron is anathema to. Now, it could just be a cultural thing; the fey teaching the early Imaskari, "Iron = BAD", and they stayed with that, finding alternatives (magical metals, or common metals treated magically). However, I am still very much convinced that the Taan region is the old Fey stomping grounds, before they left for the Feywild. Now, it could be they chose that region because it was lacking in iron, buuuuuut... I believe they somehow had all the iron removed. I haven't come up with the who or how yet (waiting on some brilliant inspiration ), but I do know WHERE - there is an entire mountain of IRON way north of the Taan region. And it highly magnetic (and THAT is canon, from The Horde boxed set).

I think by the time the Imaskari settled in that once-fertile region, the Fey had already been long-gone, but they had 'cleansed' it of all the offensive iron that could hurt them (and disrupt their magic). Some of my Fey theories have to do with them manipulating time (changing one teensy, tiny thing in the distant past, and using the Butterfly Effect to make sweeping changes in the present). Time travel has to do with hitting the correct electromagnetic frequency (and now I've moved out of FR theory into some of my RW theories) - if you can alter the field around and object, you can move it through time. The one thing that would interfere with that sort of 'magic' (and what is magic, other than 'super-science'?) is another strong electromagnetic field like one given off by a powerful magnet... or an entire mountain of iron.

Harry Potter was an idiot. I could have beaten Voldemort with a refrigerator magnet.

EDIT:
Oh, and this harkens back to OD&D lore and rules - its why wizards CAN'T wear armor. The iron in it disrupts magic. Its also why magic users (Runelords) in the Runsquest game wore Bronze armor. At some point, someone must have figured out how to enchant iron (the dwarves, with runes?), and after that, everyone would have been able to do so. I bet extremely early elven/fey weapons would not have been made from iron/steel either (Hence, glassteel).

I had much more here, but I ventured deep into esoterica which revolved around some RW theories of mine that are pretty far 'out there' by anyone's standards. Thus, I thought better of it, lest ye be driven mad by the Markonimicon.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Sep 2017 15:12:38
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5818 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2017 :  12:39:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I'd pretty much go with Markustay's last statements, which kind of goes along with what I said earlier. It probably came down to local resources, the ability to supplement with magic, and possibly even just that they found that copper/brass/bronze was prettier. Similarly, their use of obsidian could simply be that the Maztican crafting of obsidian into "plumastone" wasn't a purely Maztican crafting secret. The Imaskari artificers may have used magic like the pluma and hishna crafters of Maztica do to make mundane items into perfectly usable metals and stones that perhaps even are sharper than those of steel or hold their edge better. You could also throw in the fey stuff as well, and following magical traditions, it could make sense, but that's not necessary. You can simply say that the region was richer in one resource. It may even be that the people who would become the Raumathari did have iron (maybe not steel), but since the two cultures were only held together by portals, then the Mulans never interacted with said metal.

I will also note, this may be one of several reasons why the Imaskari were "more prone" to work with devils over demons (since demons are prone to cold iron like fey are). Of course, devils are also more likely to honor a contract, etc... so it definitely wouldn't just fall to available metallurgy.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5818 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2017 :  13:25:30  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In fact, the more I think on it, I can definitely see the Imaskari culture and their artificers as being focused on the elements in a way similar to pluma and hishna crafters. However, Pluma crafters were generally focused on peaceful pursuits and hishna crafters were focused on taking an items latent "savagery" and enhancing it much like totemists. I see the Imaskari artificers as more neutral to evil, in that their focus would have been on enslaving elementals towards the purpose of transforming materials for them. In fact, their use of brass/bronze/copper may actually stem from consulting with the efreeti (who don't have a city of steel... they have a city of brass).

It should be noted that brass is easier to cast, less likely to break when bending, is anti-corrosive and does not rust easily (and thus would be better for say piping water or other things), and threaded parts made with brass tend to be stronger (this I didn't know until I just read it), brass handles extreme weather conditions better, and brass is a better electrical conductor (which may equate to a better magical conductor much as silver is).

So, I'm kind of seeing the Imaskari artificers as experts in stone, metal, and fire "crafting"... with possibly some water and air crafting specialists as well.... but with a primary interest in the first three. Maybe they even had an interest in the elemental lords or geniekind, and from them they learned a disrespect of "gods".

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14037 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2017 :  15:23:24  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And as we all know (thanks to GoT), Obsidian is very useful for killing the Walking Dead.

Except for Tan Chin (and he's a pretty damn big exception), and the drowned city of Bhaluin, necromancy doesn't seem to have been a very big field of study for the Imaskari. In fact, it looks like most of them may have avoided it (and given some of the stuff we now know about the Raumvari - that their magic was originally druidic in nature - this all lends itself to the Taan having been the primal Fey Lands). I had always assumed Bhaluin was a 'survivor state' thing, but now I'm thinking about connecting it to Halaster (the only Imaskar that seems to have dabbled in 'shadow magic', at least, that we know of). Spin it like, "It started out innocently enough, as just another interesting branch of magic to explore, but its dark nature had a corrupting effect, and soon the 'School of Umbral Arcana' turned to evil, and became a school of necromancy as the age of Imaskar drew to a close". Perhaps this is where Myrkul Bey al-Kursi, Crown Prince of Murghôm, first learned of the 'Dark Arts' (forbidden by all non-priests among the Mulan).

EDIT:
Man, can I veer off-subject quickly.
But I do like the 'Obsidian is useful against undead' angle for building a list of 'magical material' the Imaskari would have used. Maybe they took normal obsidian and bathed it in some sort of magical radiation - something pertaining to 'life'. Of course, on Toril, that would be nearly all weave-based magics. Maybe they had something akin to a Moonwell ('Pools of Power') that they soaked obsidian weapons in (probably for the three days of the full moon, just to keep it all 'mystical').

When I do eventually write-up Imaskar, I'm not sure I would want to include such a blatant GoT derivation. Maybe to make it more D&D-ish, I could say by placing them in a Moonwell they get the properties of Star Silver (but this only works for obsidian, for some reason). If I wanted to get into RW geology, maybe say it has something to do with Chondules existing in star (meteoric) metal and volcanic rock (although, from what I understand, they'll only form at great pressure, so a planet-based obsidian would have had to have been retrieved from a very deep underwater volcanic region).

And THAT made me think maybe they retrieved some from Yal Tengri, the Great Ice sea, which made me immediately realize Yal Tengri is yet another crater.
One with an island dead-center (with some crazy-arse gnomes, IIRC).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Sep 2017 15:40:41
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1177 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2017 :  17:18:46  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
At the height of their empire the Imaskari were of near Magi-Tech level of competence in the engineering department, seen in the deviously designed defenses of their purple stone fortresses. The Bhukara Portal Network linking them are also massive bronze spires, etched by the Imaskari with Batrachi runic designs (GHotR, pg18).

Oh and MT, in that passage on the same page the signs point to Madryoch of the Ebonflame to have been among the first imaskari wizards (if not THE first) to have been known to catalogue the secrets of the Plane of Shadow. A very young and talented sorcerer prodigy, Hilather/Halaster later confronted Madryoch and trapped his soul, and probably stole all his research of the 'Dark Art' and the Shadowstone.

Shadesteel Golems (MM III) are made of quite interesting metal that is mined on the plane of shadow and tempered on the primes. The shadesteel in the golem has a visual distortion effect (allows blending into shadows) and can absorb positive and light energy (healing or hasting the golem).

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Edited by - Bladewind on 12 Sep 2017 17:19:21
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14037 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2017 :  19:33:48  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I seem to have missed that - good catch. I have to link the school of Bhaluin to Madryoch instead (with maybe two of his students being Tanchen and Hilithar.

After Tanchen left to travel the planes (to further his studies), thats when Hilithar probably seized what he could from Madryoch. The then leaderless school fell into less savory hands and began its steady decline into evil (so we can blame Halaster for causing this indirectly). I'm just wondering at what point did they start worshiping death gods (which is a very un-Imaskari thing to do). Hmmmm... just re-read the entry - it doesn't say they worship a god, it just says they are cultists who revere death. Interesting. Almost sounds like Orcus could be involved... or no-one. Just a creepy old school with creepy old students (many of which have passed into unlife; its specifically avoids saying 'undead'). So we are looking at some form of intelligent zombies, similar to the Animus of GH. They also all wear masks (both the dead and the living), and since they are on an island, this sounds very similar to the Undying of Eberron as well.

Ummmmm... and Moon-blessed obsidian should work on them, because, ummmmm... thats what the thread is supposed to be about.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Sep 2017 19:35:45
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5818 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2017 :  22:28:46  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I seem to have missed that - good catch. I have to link the school of Bhaluin to Madryoch instead (with maybe two of his students being Tanchen and Hilithar.

After Tanchen left to travel the planes (to further his studies), thats when Hilithar probably seized what he could from Madryoch. The then leaderless school fell into less savory hands and began its steady decline into evil (so we can blame Halaster for causing this indirectly). I'm just wondering at what point did they start worshiping death gods (which is a very un-Imaskari thing to do). Hmmmm... just re-read the entry - it doesn't say they worship a god, it just says they are cultists who revere death. Interesting. Almost sounds like Orcus could be involved... or no-one. Just a creepy old school with creepy old students (many of which have passed into unlife; its specifically avoids saying 'undead'). So we are looking at some form of intelligent zombies, similar to the Animus of GH. They also all wear masks (both the dead and the living), and since they are on an island, this sounds very similar to the Undying of Eberron as well.

Ummmmm... and Moon-blessed obsidian should work on them, because, ummmmm... thats what the thread is supposed to be about.



Madryoch was in Metos in the Methwood, which is in southern chessenta / western unther.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1153 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2017 :  00:13:32  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Im not sure the mulan were able to inherit from the imaskari.

The mulan were slaves and probably not well treated slaves. They may not have been educated or given anything but the most menial of tasks.

Then the godkings come along and shatter imaskari civilisation by destroying the capital. Chaos and rebellion ensue in almost all imaskari provinces and what is left are ruins and barbarian peoples.

So the mulan have to start from scratch and what they can learn from the imaskari (who may not have taught the mulan to read and write) ruins and left over scrolls of wisdom.



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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1153 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2017 :  00:14:38  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Im not sure the mulan were able to inherit from the imaskari.

The mulan were slaves and probably not well treated slaves. They may not have been educated or given anything but the most menial of tasks.

Then the godkings come along and shatter imaskari civilisation by destroying the capital. Chaos and rebellion ensue in almost all imaskari provinces and what is left are ruins and barbarian peoples.

So the mulan have to start from scratch and what they can learn from the imaskari (who may not have taught the mulan to read and write) ruins and left over scrolls of wisdom.





They would have worked in mines and other dangerous jobs so if the Imaskari had iron, the Milan would have known about it.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1153 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2017 :  00:19:11  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

In my musings (mostly the ones regarding the theoretical 'Dathites'), I have it where there were several other groups brought into The Realms, and the Mulan were treated like 'the bottom of the barrel'. Basically, they were used for manual labor, and not much else. And nothing technical - the Imaskari would not have wanted the largest group (by FAR) they brought in to have any sort of advantage if they revolted. Basically, they worked the farms in the Mulhor Marches, and not much else.

So the pecking-order would have been something like this

1) Muhjari-blooded Imaskar citizens
2) Anoque (theoretical) Imaskar citizens
3) all conquered, 'native' humans
4) 'Imported' humans and native humanoids
5) Imported humanoids

Of course, as in any slave-situation, you had some being treated way better than others, from 'favored pets' to a resource to be used up, even less important than farm animals, depending upon how 'enlightened' the owners/overseers were. Also, if my Dathites did exist (and that one piece of lore hints that they did), then perhaps some groups of slaves were used as the overseers for others, which could have created a lot of animosity post-Imaskar between groups (and why they broke off into several different nations, and why the Chondathans {Chessentans} felt they needed to travel so far west, away from the others). Thus, different groups may have different levels of 'expertise' (tech) than others.

Side Thoughts
So this got me thinking: In my Dathite musings I have it where the Imaskari were looking for a 'warlike' culture to import to do their fighting for them (kind of like the Unsullied of GoT - slave soldiers). The Dathites did not work out so well (a non-docile culture is NOT going to make for very good slaves). The people of Mesopotamia made excellent slaves because their own leaders were already treating them that way. In fact, when you think about it, their lot didn't really improve all that much even after the revolt. They just traded one set of owners for another.

So the thought just hit me - what if the Imaskari had opened Gates to other worlds, ones with even more warlike cultures? And what if they decided it was too risky to bring in large numbers of those, so they sealed those Gates? And what if Thayd knew about the gates, and opened a few of them later on?



The lowest slaves are used in mining, because mining in ancient times was extremely dangerous work, deadly, it would be a punishment for more valued slaves to be made to work in the mines.

And if the Mulhorandi worked in the mines they'd know what metals the Imaskari had access to.

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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1153 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2017 :  00:26:13  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When you have the kind of magic that Imaskar had, perhaps the occult value of a substance, out weighs it's other values.

So if Bronze is cheaper and easier to get and a magic bronze sword is as strong as a magic iron sword, then even if they had the iron tech, it may not have been worth putting any effort into exploiting iron compared to Bronze.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14037 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2017 :  03:28:17  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think the Imaskari didn't know how to work with iron, I just think they didn't bother with it. Thus, their slaves would not have been exposed to it.

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

When you have the kind of magic that Imaskar had, perhaps the occult value of a substance, out weighs it's other values.

So if Bronze is cheaper and easier to get and a magic bronze sword is as strong as a magic iron sword, then even if they had the iron tech, it may not have been worth putting any effort into exploiting iron compared to Bronze.
Yeah, thats what I was getting at above - with their magical power, the actual material wouldn't have mattered so much.

Supposition: What if they worked with Bronze (in part) knowing their slaves would learn from them? The Imaskari could've treated their weapons so they were equal or superior to the finest steel, but the Mulan would not have had access to those advanced (magical) practices. Basically, they'd be insuring that without magic, the Mulan would never be able to revolt against them.

There are some ancient Tuigan weapons and armor in the Horde boxed set that date back to some of those early Taangan kingdoms (which would mean around the time of Imaskar). I have to check what those were made of (I can only think of a bow off-hand). The only other relevant thing would be that during the First Empire of Shou-Lung (which was also the last empire of Imaskar- Anok-Imaskar) a Shou hero used the Acorn of Wo Mai to bind the Copper Demon of Troos. That would have occurred in the Taan region, and Goerge Krashos and I have both come to the conclusion that the fiend was somehow trapped inside a Raumathari creation... that was made out of copper. Another good indicator the Taan has almost no iron ore, for for whatever reason, the inhabitants of the region refused to use it.

I also happen to think 'Troos' was the capital of Tsharoon, so the fiend would have ruled-over an empire that existed where the Quoya desert is today. Kara-Tur itself seems to have the normal amount of iron deposits (judging by the size of the armies it can field with steel weapons). It just seems to be the groups in the Hordelands - and not just Imaskar - that didn't use iron/steel.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Sep 2017 23:27:34
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5818 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2017 :  12:38:57  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor


The lowest slaves are used in mining, because mining in ancient times was extremely dangerous work, deadly, it would be a punishment for more valued slaves to be made to work in the mines.

And if the Mulhorandi worked in the mines they'd know what metals the Imaskari had access to.




While I'm inclined to agree that this is true for many modern societies.... I'm not necessarily sure that its true for the Imaskari. This was a culture who studied other planes, who studied extradimensional space, and who studied summoning of extraplanar entities. There are even some suggestions that they may have had interests in elementalism, which does kind of tie into the aforementioned.

So, if you could summon expendable people to be miners (because an extraplanar entity that dies in the prime doesn't actually die) , would that be a choice you might make instead of wasting valuable slaves like the Mulan? So picture hordes of lemure being overseen by devils... or hordes of manes being overseen by devils (who take pleasure in torturing the tanar'ri). Also, if they can summon demons and devils, they can also summon beings of the elemental plane of earth.... and these creatures would be extremely well suited to mining.

Also, one of the big things with mining is actually transporting the material out of the mine. With bags that work as extradimensional spaces, this becomes much easier and less inclined to create collapses as you don't have to shore up as much or make pathways near as wide. Also with elemental earth beings and magic, finding what you need in the earth can be as simple as sending an earth phasing creature in to spy out the surrounding earth and then once you note where the things are that you need, working towards just getting to and working said area.... and again, with say a bag that has extradimensionsal spaces, you may be able to actually create a "tunnel" that's the size of your fist into a wall, then send in shrunken miners to simply mine just that "module" and put it in the bag. Passwall and some affect like a wand that does transmute rock to mud on whatever it touches might be useful for quickly extracting larger "modules" that are say 10 to 20 feet within a wall without having to actually pull out all of that interceding rock... you just go in, change all the rock surrounding what you want to mud, it falls out of the wall and you load it into an extradimensional space, then the passwall effect expires.

Anyway, so what I'm ultimately getting at here is that life for the Mulan people may not have been actually as bad as what we picture. They may have been more of house servants and builders and field servants. Since the Imaskari didn't necessarily have clerics, one would imagine they had more of a need for medical aid. Thus, these Mulans may have been doing the more dirty parts of the medical profession (cleaning floors and tools, gathering and caring for leeches or other such creatures, emptying bed pans, creating linen for bandages, washing bed sheets, preparing mass quantities of materials which Imaskari artificers prepared into poultices, etc...). So, the Mulan folk may have known a good bit about building things from the Imaskari, which fits with the idea that the Mulhorandi people were some of the most technologically advanced in the realms (which they were prior to the ToT). In fact, the Mulan people may have learned to read/write/perform advanced math, etc... from the Imaskari. But of course, the victors write the history books... and so its written that the Imaskari were cruel oppressors and their gods had to come and save them.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5818 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2017 :  13:23:37  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In fact, one of the things that may play out that we find out about is that the Mulan people were indeed still split into two groups even in Imaskar. The "Untheric" people were possibly overseen by the "Mulhorandi" people... with the Imaskari overseeing at a higher level even. This would fit with Mulhorand having a high tech level, but Unther not. It would also add more to the explanation of the split happening whenever the two cultures are rescued. So, the Mulhorandi may have even learned some of the "artificer" magics (if they were indeed trained crafting magics similar to pluma/hishna) from their masters or picked them up from books later. Meanwhile, the Untheric people would probably be the ones trading with the dwarves more and initially picking up the secret of steel from them (and naturally, the Mulhorandi can't have the "lowly" Untheric people having a crafting secret that they don't know, so they also learn of steel, as do the Narfellians and Raumathari.... but the Mulhorandi are slower to adapt its use because they have ways to make copper/brass/bronze just as if not more useful).

Noting this would also fit with the Untheric people choosing a city that's known for getting flooded. They return to their primitive roots in which they probably lived in flood basins, used materials like reeds to craft housing, etc... because they simply weren't as technologically advanced. It could also explain why the Untheric people are harsher with slaves than the Mulhorandi people. The Mulhorandi were treated better as slaves, and so they treat their own slaves better. The Mulhorandi people were also possibly given more leeway in their lives, whereas the Untheric people may have been simply pointed in a direction to work.

I will also note that this plays out in how the people of Abeir used the people of Mulhorand and Unther, though that doesn't say anything truly about how the Imaskari did so...

and now I'm kind of wondering something about the origins of the genasi of Shyr in Abeir.... hmmm, and were the ancient Imaskari purebred humans... and were the lands of Unther and Mulhorand always a part of Toril.... nah, probably shouldn't go down that path.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 13 Sep 2017 13:29:17
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6283 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2017 :  14:25:57  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We have examples of civilization in our world (specifically regions in the Middle East, India, and Far East) which were "Bronze Age" in terms of metal yet attained "Iron Age" levels of craft, sophistication, and development. In some cases they knew how to build kilns and forges and bellows capable of smelting iron, they knew how to cast it, they knew how to work it into steel (they even developed legendary methods of burning iron ingots in special plants to produce high-carbon "Wootz" and eventually "Damascus" steels) - but the finest examples and monuments of their craft continued to be worked in bronze (or even brass, where zinc was more plentiful than tin) for many centuries because they simply had no real access to useful quantities of iron. Many continued - and still continue - to produce items for religious, artistic, and functional purposes from base copper or alloyed bronze in subsequent centuries because of tradition or aesthetics.

Magical items are also art items. Sometimes hard steel just doesn't fit the purpose as well as golden bronze. (Even today we have artwork, jewellery, and countless ceremonial items made from copper, gold-plate, or bronze instead of far more durable tungsten steel or far stronger titanium carbide or far cheaper aluminum.)

Realmslore has often commented on magical qualities and properties of metals. Silver vs lycanthropes. Iron vs feys. Perhaps bronze (or copper) have some specific purpose in fighting the enemies or synergizing the magics of ancient civilizations?

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Sep 2017 14:29:10
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1177 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2017 :  14:32:00  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
At the time the Imaskari empire had the ten thousands of proto-mulan slaves the civilization already had ruled its territory for a very long time. The Raurin basin area consists of several elevated plateaus and is mentioned to have very few iron deposits [this might be due to the relative old age of the surface area, having leached all pot-iron for millenia into the underdark, the Great Vale or the lakes of the Raurin basin]. For this reason the early Imaskari readily traded for good quality iron with dwarves from for example the Dustwall mountains.

The early Imaskari dynasties, first seated in Inupras and later in the Katakaro mountain-fortresses, are nearly 3500 years old by the time the waisting plague wiped out the population of the lower classes, baffling the local clergies with the plagues resistance to divine magic. This catastrophy forced both the ruling magocracy elite and the devastated citizens to condemn the divines and forge new bronzen Bukhara Spires in search of a new world to maintain productive levels of argiculture and commerce in the regions wiped out the hardest by the plague.

From the intermingling of lower class Imaskari and the imported slaves from the world beyond the bhukara spire came the Mulan people, so I guess the slaves were treaded quite fairly in a few cases, some might even have taught the lower imaskari some of the mythology of the just divines who ruled the mulan homeworld. To the ruling and uncaring Imaskari mage-elites who had set their sights on many more worlds and planes of the multiverse, the proto-mulan and their petty piety were very much beneath their notice, setting stage for their eventual fall by divine verdict. They were busy building things such as the Imaskarcana and doing other things more arcane and otherworldly such as drowning Bhaluin (for its use of necromancy?), and creating extra-dimensional fortresses, forging shadesteel golems for its defences, designing spells and learning to navigate interplanar politics.

EDIT: Anyone know when the Artificers erected the Godswall, what it was made of, and what the event was that led to the decision to implement something that resource intensive?

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Edited by - Bladewind on 13 Sep 2017 14:53:59
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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
127 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2017 :  16:06:10  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ayrik is correct, most likely it's true for some northern Germany and Scandinavian bronze age as well. Making copper trough 5-6 step processes and making bronze of it, is wery complex. In the last parts of Scandinavian "bronze age", it's quite possibly they knew of iron, but still bought copper from Hallstatt culture (most likely iron age Celts!), and tin from Britain's Iron Age peoples.
It probably was rules of marriages, coming of age ceremonies, lots of magical knowledge of alchemy, marriage bonds to important chiefs (bronze age peoples married their sisters/daughters off to other peoples), etc. Markus: "Bronze Age" isn't simple metallurgy, it something complex, wery old, and different. (And I'd wish Wotc was more interested in history and made more realistic ones
Most likely, if Mulan turned out Bronze age, they started as just that. If their "evil" slaver overlords was the first iron users they had seen, it could turn them off from it for a long time, imho.
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
659 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2017 :  18:21:53  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

But of course, the victors write the history books... and so its written that the Imaskari were cruel oppressors and their gods had to come and save them.



Curiously enough, this happened again, with High Imaskar. (see SCAG)

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14037 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2017 :  23:43:06  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm well-aware of what 'Bronze Age Culture' means. The reason why anthropologists use the metal to denote the culture-type was because being able to work a certain metal changes the entire culture (actually, tech changes the culture, but the earliest 'tech' was metallurgy).

And plenty of people knew how to work iron before they were able to obtain large enough amounts for it to overhaul their culture. Not just warfare, either - it makes a huge difference in farming (efficiency = more free time = 'rise of the middle class').

quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

EDIT: Anyone know when the Artificers erected the Godswall, what it was made of, and what the event was that led to the decision to implement something that resource intensive?
I never thought of it as a physical, earth-bound thing. I just assumed it was a powerful dweomer grafted onto the Crystal Sphere itself (or The Weave, which I've also pictured being a 'skin' on the shell of sphere). At least in part - the crystal Sphere is covered with ancient script; possibly the 'code' of the physics of sphere, including The Weave?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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