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The Silver Sage
Acolyte

10 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2017 :  14:24:35  Show Profile Send The Silver Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Well met wise sages! I’ve a few questions about overgods interacting with other overgods and I was hoping to get some opinions about how they might deal with one another. So, I’m running a campaign, set on the verge of apocalypse, which entails the entire multiverse (save for the PCs) being utterly destroyed. This means every crystal sphere, except for the forgotten realms, has been destroyed due to certain effects originating from Toril. As a result, every other universe (crystal sphere) is annihilated and the respective overgods “have nowhere else to go” thus they take an interest in FR. Naturally a slew of questions emerges when multiple (infinite?) overgods converge in one area—

• What, if anything, would happen?
• How would Ao feel about this?
• What would he/ could he do about it?
• How would the other overgods treat/ handle Ao?
• Is there some cosmic law which prohibits other overgods from interfering with another overgods realm? Or is it simply a “don’t mess with mine and I won’t mess with yours” deal?


Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

255 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2017 :  15:06:08  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great campaign concept! I've been rolling a similar concept around in my head for a while... Bascially, Cyric wasn't imprisoned for a 1000 years... He was actually banished from the Realms for a 1000 years... Therefore, over the course of a millenium, Cyric will destroy all the other Crystal Spheres, and the Forgotten Realms will be the only refuge for the Powers of the Multiverse... Hence, why we are seeing so much material from other settings being reimagined in the Realms... If they don't flee to the Realms, Cyric will consign them to Oblivion.

Regarding the Overgods of other Crystal Spheres... My interpretation of the Overgods like AO is that they are essentially "Automated Operators" of a Crystal Sphere... their infinite power over Deities within a particular Crystal Sphere, is coupled with a total inability to exist outside of the Crystal Sphere that they are tied to... If a Crystal Sphere is destroyed, the Overgod of that Crystal Sphere is destroyed as well...

I think it would be interesting to try and figure out a way for AO to incorporate all the Refugee Deities into the Realms... Because I think AO would somehow feel a responsibility to try and retain the existence of all of the Deities of the Multiverse... Like you said, they have nowhere else to go, so the Realms would become the Multiverse, and AO would assume the role of Overgod of the Multiverse...

Also, if AO is aware that the Realms is the only remaining Crystal Sphere... Perhaps AO (and the Deities) would be endeavoring to find a Secret to creating a NEW Crystal Sphere... Wouldn't want to keep all your eggs in one basket, and all that...

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss

Edited by - Cyrinishad on 08 Sep 2017 15:12:01
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1189 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2017 :  15:10:59  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ao is hinted at to be not that high in rank in the hierarchy of overgods, as he defers to a higher being aswell. So depending on how you rank that Ubergod in relation to other custodian overgods of worlds such as those of Krynn, Oerth or D&D Historic Earth, the other overgods can be equals to AO that have lost their crystal sphere (and the area they can easily influence) or greater overgods (maybe they are older) that can co-opt Torils crystal sphere with ease or lesser overgods that AO can confine or command.

If AO is of at least equal power he would probably create twinned crystal spheres for the new comers. If he's weaker he might have to pass the reigns to a new overgod. 'In the end there can be only one' overgod per crystal sphere though, so a highlander style struggle will ensue if multiple overgods try taking over Torils crystal sphere. The overgod in charge determines the space-time physics of the material plane, so things like gravitational anomalies, timelapses, teleportation storms could possibly emerge during a 'war of the of overgods'.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30290 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2017 :  16:07:51  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would say that being the overgod of a sphere makes one supreme within that sphere -- except to whoever they answer to, directly.

So unless Ao's boss says otherwise, foreign overgods wouldn't be overgods within Realmspace, and might be entirely powerless.

I would further suggest the possibility that overgods -- or at least their power -- are directly tied to their spheres of responsibility. Leaving home might not be possible, or it might be possible but at the cost of losing all of their power.

It's like leaders of nations and such. Azoun IV was king of Cormyr; his word there was law. When he went to Waterdeep, he wasn't a Lord of Waterdeep, he was a visiting dignitary. He was treated with respect and deference, of course, but if he tried to order a common Waterdhavian around, that Waterdhavian might just say, "Sorry, your Lordship, but you've no call to order me and mine about, so just be on your way." And by the laws of Waterdeep, Azoun wouldn't be able to do diddley about it.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14187 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2017 :  19:56:05  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
'Overgods' hold complete sway within their domain, and the most common 'domain' that an overgod would be in charge of would be a Crystal Sphere. In FR, in some older sources, The Celestial Emperor (K-T), Maztica, and FATE (Zakhara) are all considered 'Overgods', and yet they defer to Ao. This is why I think those three are actually foreign Overgods who have developed following within Realmspace (probably due to setting cross-pollination). I have one theory all set for the CE (its actually part of his - and the Shou's - canon backstory), and I think Maztica is just an Abeirran 'echo' of Ao, but FATE I haven't given a lot of thought to (Zakhara, YES, but not FATE itself).

So there you go - three canon examples of other 'Overgods' in Realmspace, and yet, not THE Overgod of Realmspace, which Ao is. If I am right about my latest theory posed in another thread - that these Overgods are really just the collective consciousness of a world (or Sphere), then I would think extremely large numbers of that world's population must have transferred over (as was the case with the Shou; their name - Shou Lung - literally translates to "Receivers of the Dragon", because they followed the Celestial Dragon from The Red Earth). As I've said, I have this figured into my own homebrew musings regarding Shou-Lung and Maztica, but I need to think more on FATE and Zakahara (perhaps a world called 'Al-Qadim'? Qadimspace? - They could have had vast numbers of humans brought-over by the genies when they ruled that subcontinent).

I guess not enough Mulan got captured initially for the Overgod of Solspace to make it over. Unless one were to conjecture that Ra is the Overgod of Earth... but I don't think so. I go with a more Stargate backstory regarding the Imaskari and all the 'Egypt-like' regions throughout the spheres (just about every Earth-type world has one).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Sep 2017 07:21:39
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
717 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2017 :  22:28:40  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Didn't Ao contacted first Ptah when the Mulani gods asked Ao to let them went to Realmspace? It was also Ptah the one who guided the Untheric and Mulhorandi gods through the Wildspace. So, I guess he is the closest thing Solspace have to an Overgod, I guess.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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The Silver Sage
Acolyte

10 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2017 :  00:47:29  Show Profile Send The Silver Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just a little more information about my “cosmic order”. Above Ao and the other overgods exists the supreme beings. Beyond an impossibly immense diamond wall lies the final dimension of reality. A higher plane where time, space, gravity, magic, have no meaning. It appears like a negative nightsky, a blanket of pure white, dotted by celestial bodies of the deepest black. It is home to the Ubergods, the Lipika, the keepers of secrets, supernatural librarians who tend to the Akashic library (the DNA of all universes). Ancient legend suggests that these cosmic custodians are in fact retired supreme beings. The Lipika, titanic gem-like entities, take turns acting as the one supreme being, destroying and rebuilding entire omniverses for their own inscrutable reasons (reminiscent of the DM and players).

The supreme being allows the overgods complete latitude in controlling their realms. For simplicity, the overgods, eons ago, before time and light and matter, came to a concordance about basic “fundamentals of reality.” Constructs like gravity and time were given a tangible form. Not just the ability to feel the effects of said phenomena, but a physical “heart” if you will. In my FR lies “the heart of time” a relic which controls not just all of time in Toril, but every universe which uses the concept of time. This is how the PCs accidentally obliterate the omniverse. By tampering with the heart, they create catastrophic destruction (along with fun temporal paradoxes for themselves). Since FR is the epicenter of the explosion (implosion?), this reality is the “last domino to fall.” Perhaps just enough time for the PCs to save all of reality?

So, a few more questions:
• Is it likely that some/ all/ one/ or none of the new overgods would aid the PCs?
• How would they do it (if, as some might suggest, they are “powerless beyond their sphere”)?
• It seems that there might be other canonically named overgods. Does anybody have the names of them (Ao has to refer to them somehow)?


quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind



If AO is of at least equal power he would probably create twinned crystal spheres for the new comers. If he's weaker he might have to pass the reigns to a new overgod. 'In the end there can be only one' overgod per crystal sphere though, so a highlander style struggle will ensue if multiple overgods try taking over Torils crystal sphere.. . . could possibly emerge during a 'war of the of overgods'.



I really like this

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



I would further suggest the possibility that overgods -- or at least their power -- are directly tied to their spheres of responsibility. Leaving home might not be possible, or it might be possible but at the cost of losing all of their power.

It's like leaders of nations and such. Azoun IV was king of Cormyr; his word there was law. When he went to Waterdeep, he wasn't a Lord of Waterdeep, he was a visiting dignitary. He was treated with respect and deference, of course, but if he tried to order a common Waterdhavian around, that Waterdhavian might just say, "Sorry, your Lordship, but you've no call to order me and mine about, so just be on your way." And by the laws of Waterdeep, Azoun wouldn't be able to do diddley about it.




This makes sense. While I agree they would not have complete dominion over time/space/ect. I'd like to think new overgods are still immensely powerful (beyond god-like) and should still be able to influence the PCs (albeit in subtle ways).

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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1189 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2017 :  02:09:48  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I dont know of the canon names of the 'other' overgods but I do have a Mystara campaign source that suggests some concepts that the supreme beings of the overgod hierarchy might encompass. These are:
Entropy
Energy
Thought
Time
Matter

And the immortal rules for 1st ed D&D has a ranking system going from lowest to highest:
Initiate
Temporal
Celestial
Empyreal
Eternal
Hierarch
Supreme Hierarch

Some overgod names I have seen floating around these kinds of discussions that I think are equal or greater in power to AO are the following:
Io (Asgorath the Worldshaper), Odin and Hel (after Ragnarok), Ixion (the Void), Ka the Protector (Amber or World Serpent), Father Time (Chronus/Khoronus), Ma'at (Ptah), Nyx (patroness of Darkness), Anubis, Magna Mater (Mother Earth), Thanatos (Death), Surt (Zugzul, Giant Fires and Epic Necromancy), Urd (vanished Time Lord of the Pit), Ouranos (Heavy Matter), Pax (who abandoned the D&D multiverses to chase Thalia the Beauty), Skuld (who controls the Past and Future in Urds and Verthandi's stead), Verthandi (the Future; the missing flow/river of Time).

All overgods are bound by agreed upon rules. No direct actions on the primes, no use of powers on the prime material worlds, and they are not allowed to reveal their true nature to mortals on the primes. The most important rule is that on the Primes they cannot directly influence mortals, so no direct actions are permitted on thread of direct intervention by other overgods. Indirectly they might influence a period of time through prophesy, and they sometimes risk walking the primes as identities (mortal bodies created by an immortal) to achieve some goal. If they die or break the three rules in such forms they lose rank in the immortal hierarchy.


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Edited by - Bladewind on 09 Sep 2017 02:25:27
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
717 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2017 :  04:12:21  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perchance do you have the sources for those gods?

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14187 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2017 :  04:19:21  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I borrow a lot of my 'Cosmic Beings' stuff from Marvel Comics, thus I have a "all that is" manifestation of the Universe itself, like Marvel's Eternity, and his 'sister', Infinity, representing both THE GOD and 'the divine feminine' (which begat the demiurge - the 'need to create'). Below them are the Sidereals (a name I saw on some website and liked), which represent the dimensions (not planes), which also represent the primal forces of the universe. Then below them are the 'Eternals', which would be like Overgods in D&D. Chief among these is the Living tribunal (I just refer to him as 'the tribunal' in D&D) - basically, when Overgods have a disagreement, they go to him to decide things (the way regular Gods have to go to Overgods). He is basically 'The First among equals'. A God could take its case directly to the Tribunal if it thinks its Overgod is being unfair (but he/she BETTER be right, because you don't go over your boss's head without good reason).

Below the Eternals Or perhaps they are just the highest 'tier' of them) are the Ordials - these are typically physical beings of immense power. They are the construction crews of the universe - they get commanded (in theory), and they do what they are told. The Prime Ordials (Celestial/Dawn Titans) are the lowest tier of the 'Overgods' (perhaps a better term would be 'Elder Gods'). All beings in these categories are created beings, for specific purposes, all the way on up to the top (and theoretically, that 'Supreme Being' created itself, as well, out of random thoughts that coalesced from the Elemental Chaos (Primal Soup) before the universe began.

Estelar are NOT purpose-created. They are 'spawned' by the universe itself when a need arises. Those would be the beings that one typically thinks of when one thinks 'god' (the others - the 'Elder Gods' - are too alien for mortals to truly understand). One might term these 'True Gods', and they can interact with mortals, which the Elder Powers don't normally do. Last but not least are the deities - these are ascended mortals. Some may have stolen their power, other may have just worked hard to attain it, and still others may have had it thrust upon them, whether they wanted it or not (many 'hero gods' are born this way, after the mortal passes).

This isn't so much based upon POWER (although normally the higher-tiered a being is, the more powerful it is), because on rare occasions lower-ranked beings can obtain equal or greater (raw) power than those ranked above them. In fact, this is how most 'Cosmic Conflicts' (Godwars) start.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Sep 2017 04:22:36
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
246 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2017 :  06:41:45  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

'Overgods' hold complete sway within their domain, and the most common 'domain' that an overgod would be in charge of would be a Crystal. In FR, in some older sources, The Celestial Emperor (K-T), Maztica, and FATE (Zakhara) are all considered 'Overgods'


Wait, what sources considered them overpowers? Or are you considering heads of pantheons to be overpowers? I don't think those were ever intended to be the same, at least not during 2nd Edition (I can't speak to material after that).

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Didn't Ao contacted first Ptah when the Mulani gods asked Ao to let them went to Realmspace? It was also Ptah the one who guided the Untheric and Mulhorandi gods through the Wildspace. So, I guess he is the closest thing Solspace have to an Overgod, I guess.


Ptah's presence in wildspace is ubiquitous, either because of the ancient nature of his faith spread him everywhere, or because it is a special aspect of his portfolio.

None of the extant real-world deities serve well as the equivalent of an overpower; none are widely acknowledged generally. However, Anu of the Sumerian/Akkadian pantheon was adopted as a "retired head of the pantheon" figure by the Elamites and Hittites, which makes four completely unrelated cultures (not even including other much less well documented cultures from the areas that also did the same) that treated him as the progenitor of the pantheons (and did so for multiple thousands of years). He'd be a better choice, although I wouldn't actually do that myself.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14187 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2017 :  07:35:21  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Wait, what sources considered them overpowers? Or are you considering heads of pantheons to be overpowers? I don't think those were ever intended to be the same, at least not during 2nd Edition (I can't speak to material after that).
2e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (Revised), Running the Realms, pg.61.

I believe it was mentioned in at least one other source at that time, but later - either a late 2e product or early 3e one - overwrote all that and stated that Ao was "the only Overgod' in Realmspace.

Hence, why I created an 'in-between' category called 'High Gods', which are the heads of pantheons, and fit between Overgods and Greater Gods (for all intents and purposes they ARE Greater Gods - they just get to tell other Greater Gods what to do). I suppose another way of looking at it is that they are the 'minor leagues' of the Overgods, in much the same way that demigods relate to deities (so basically, a demi-Overgod).

And as I've stated elsewhere, I think its entirely possible that an Overpower from another Crystal Sphere can fill that role. They may still 'rule over' their own pantheon, and the mortals who worship them, but they still have to answer to Ao (or whichever Overgod's sphere they are in). Thus, there may be another Crystal sphere where Ao is just a 'High God', and The Celestial Emperor reigns supreme.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Sep 2017 07:37:56
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3506 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2017 :  08:51:42  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Urgh, i dislike the idea of overgodd even more than regular gods.

If you dont portray the deities as spoiled teenagers then there is no need for an overgod.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14187 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2017 :  14:33:12  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But they are.

Haven't you read any Greek mythology? Or Norse? Gods are jerks.

ED pictured his 'Gods' being like the Amberites (he's said this a number of times), from the Chronicles of Amber. They were actually a rich, spoiled family of 'brats' who just happened to have god-like powers. Basically, super-powered mortals... except they were also immortal.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3506 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2017 :  14:53:14  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nothing is ever going to convince me that superbrat deities is good for roleplaying or storytelling. If it is good for neither then why keep it in a setting built upon roleplaying and storytelling.

The deus ex machina god mcguffin killed the realms.

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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
717 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2017 :  15:03:04  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

But they are.

Haven't you read any Greek mythology? Or Norse? Gods are jerks.



Well, norse gods are more mature than the greek ones. Or at least, they learned from their antics. The bad way, but learned.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30290 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2017 :  17:19:42  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Urgh, i dislike the idea of overgodd even more than regular gods.

If you dont portray the deities as spoiled teenagers then there is no need for an overgod.



Yes, we know you hate deities; you never miss an opportunity to tell everyone that.

How does this help the original poster wanting to discuss overgods and his existing, already-in-motion plot?

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 09 Sep 2017 :  19:40:39  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't find the Gods of the Realms distasteful, except during the Tot, and that was 2e. They are what they are, and you can just ignore them if you like (most folks in-setting just pay them 'lip service'). The novels tend to make them seem more important than they are, because the protagonists in said books need to have antagonists that make their main character 'shine brighter'. Most of what happens in the novels has ZERO effect on the RPG Realms (to the point where structures - and entire cities - just 'reappear' the next day after been blown apart).

As for an 'Overgods War', well, I can see why that would make dazzler's eye start twitching. The Gods nearly destroyed the Realms when they fought, and the planet had to be literally torn in two because of war between gods and primordials. So just imagine what a 'war of Overgods' would do. What could mortals - even insanely powerful ones - hope to accomplish in such a milieu? I'm just not seeing why a normal Godwar isn't good enough to keep them busy.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Sep 2017 19:42:18
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The Silver Sage
Acolyte

10 Posts

Posted - 10 Sep 2017 :  01:33:47  Show Profile Send The Silver Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


I'm just not seeing why a normal Godwar isn't good enough to keep them busy.



Well it might, but I really want to enforce the gravity of their situation. Something multiverse spanning. Something to be found out once the heroes ascend to demi-god/legendary hero status. They find out that even the gods have a mere inkling of whats truly happening. Its they, and not the gods, which must solve/ (create) the problem.
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1189 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2017 :  15:26:05  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The only hurdle I see for the PC's is that once they know of the place and existence of the overgods, the overgods will do anything in their power to make sure that the PCs won't be able to spread that knowledge.
An overgod will for example be able to memory-erase all the actions the PC's committed that the overgod witnessed, altering the events in the memories of all mortals in Toril to align with what the overgod wants them to be, erasing all notions of the machinations of his plans. The PC can get in trouble for breaking the rule and warning the mortals of the existence of overgods in the future, and could be monitored by an overgod identity.

Identities are probably fairly depowered divine challenges though, so as to remain un-intrusive in the crystal sphere they operate. Outside the crystal spheres (where I think you placed the overgods 'turf') they are practically unassailable, able to use reality altering powers at a moments notice. You might want to expand on the roads/arteries leading to the Akashic Library beyond the crystal walls of the sphere of AO, because these places might be important enough to remain stable enough to send adventurers through who want to reach an overgods physical form.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
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Posted - 11 Sep 2017 :  17:15:06  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

The only hurdle I see for the PC's is that once they know of the place and existence of the overgods, the overgods will do anything in their power to make sure that the PCs won't be able to spread that knowledge.
An overgod will for example be able to memory-erase all the actions the PC's committed that the overgod witnessed, altering the events in the memories of all mortals in Toril to align with what the overgod wants them to be, erasing all notions of the machinations of his plans. The PC can get in trouble for breaking the rule and warning the mortals of the existence of overgods in the future, and could be monitored by an overgod identity.





I don't know that an overgod would bother with that. Ao didn't. Mortal races are basically beneath his notice.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Sep 2017 17:15:37
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1189 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2017 :  18:19:45  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Agreed. I remember a story in NWN about a cult of AO, a group of worshippers that he totally ignored, because the community was geographically and socially isolated.

The PC's, if they start spreading their knowledge of the inner workings of the multiverses, might not be the small fry mortals AO tends to ignore anymore.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 11 Sep 2017 :  19:03:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ao appeared in Waterdeep, and that was the main site of a cult dedicated to him.

He didn't bother to hide his presence during this appearance, and he simply ignored mortals after it.

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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 14 Sep 2017 :  03:33:22  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gods remain among my favorite features of the Realms, though they can be a little too involved sometimes. I like some involvement now and then.

Anyway, I think a lot of it would depend on the ability/powers of the other overgods. As was pointed out, Ao wasn't the only "overgod" in Realmspace, but he was THE overgod (the over-overgod lol). He can "share" his space, but even he answers to a "master (as evidenced in Waterdeep). This Master may very well have control of the overgods of the other spheres, as well, and may be able to dictate whether or not a bunch of overgods going to one sphere is a no-no. For one thing, this could have a bad effect on reality, to the point where it actually warps reality (that much power in one sphere, and all of them vying for control...).

Back to their abilities, if their spheres were destroyed, the other overgods could perhaps make new spheres, again, depending on abilities, and whether they are allowed to create. Some of them may take (what they think) is the easy way out, and try and wrest control from Ao, but others may not even bother.

Edit: as of this post, I just realized I am a Great Reader lol.

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Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 14 Sep 2017 03:35:58
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Veritas
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Posted - 15 Sep 2017 :  21:31:58  Show Profile  Visit Veritas's Homepage Send Veritas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To go with the tiny scraps of relevant lore, Ao resides outside of the cosmos. He just happens to be in charge of Realmspace. He's largely credited (whether correctly or incorrectly) with creating Realmspace in certain sourcebooks, although almost no one in the Realms should have any idea since, it appears he was virtually unknown prior to the Time of Troubles.

Overgods may have whatever traits you want, but the very few relevant depictions seem to be that they are largely uninvolved with the affairs of a crystal sphere other than whatever their specific sphere of interest is. In other words, for the most part, even without a crystal sphere, overgods are not likely to take an interest in Realmspace. If anything, I'd see them as more likely to create another universe than to meddle in Ao's affairs.

But remember, the one common trait is that they're almost entirely uninvolved. Few mortals are even aware of overgods. If they were overtly intervening, they'd be fairly well known throughout the published settings. But, from what little we know, they don't seem to be out there leading pantheons, overtly ruling, or otherwise meddling with the cosmos in any way that would likely be noticeable by mortals.

To quote the SRD "[Overgods] are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities."

Even Ao's intervention in the big picture was fixing an imbalance. While it looks like alot of intervention from our perspective, everything from the Time of Troubles to the Sundering may well be one event from his cosmic perspective. And he didn't act for the mortal's benefit so much as remind the gods to do their jobs and uphold their portfolios.

Ao's job is to maintain some kind of cosmic balance on behest of a higher power hinted at being the boss of many many other such overgods. The depictions we have is that Ao is likely supreme within Realmspace, since it is his assignment from a Supreme Being. James Lowder's "Prince of Lies" depicted a tome by Gargauth that referenced struggles against "weird being mightier than even Ao" yet Ao seems to have carried the day, so either Gargauth is mistaken, lying, or if correct, likely that Ao had some sort of home field advantage concerning Realmspace.

Ao's existing feats dwarf just about every other depicted overgodlike entity. Chaos, as depicted in Dragonlance, is decidedly less powerful. The Lady of Pain, whatever she is, has a known tally of one slain deity (Aoskar), barring deities from Sigil (within limits since she didn't immediately eject Finder Wyvernspur), and possibly pressuring or ejecting a greater god Vecna during the events of Die Vecna Die. She doesn't do so instantly, so either it wasn't an easy feat for her, or it would have ramifications for Sigil that we readers are unaware of.


Then we have the Serpent, which is probably best known as Vecna's little helper, an embodiment of magic who gave secrets to Vecna but hasn't taken any active effort, other than providing lore that allowed Vecna to subvert the Dark Powers of Ravenloft and use Ravenloft to bootstrap Vecna into Sigil.

Tharizdun got jail time from the combined might of other deities.

Krynn has the High God who is largely a prototypical creator deity. Io has been speculated as overdeity class (although I believe only ever depicted as a greater deity) and basically seeded worlds with progeny.

Ao's feats are beyond comparison, subjugating any and all deities at will, splitting apart and combining worlds, locking deities out of Realmspace, erasing Mystra's memories, turning Elminster into a polite host,but he has some arbitrary limits (being unable to, or claiming that, he could not restore Mystra as she was).

But bringing it back to your original point. Ao seems to be a stickler for Balance, whatever that means in your mind. He probably would permit the intervention of other overgods provided that they don't disrupt that balance. If they do disrupt that balance, he would oppose them. He's very much like a Marvel Abstract in that regard. He has something of a single track mind. He probably would not intervene if his intervention would destroy Realmspace in some cosmic battle since that doesn't appear to be his mandate. However, it does look like he can, if necessary, phone home to his super boss in relatively short order if necessary if he feels that he cannot handle a threat to Realmspace. Whether the boss would intervene on his behalf, or direct some of the seemingly many overgods who report to him to assist Ao is anyone's guess.

To address your questions point by point:

• What, if anything, would happen?

As overdeities are generally depicted, if they take an interest in the Realms, they probably would sit and watch before they'd start meddling. Some creator deity types might try to introduce a new species after giving an appropriate few millennia to examine the world and decide their progeny's place in it. They're not the sort of entities that act quickly. Since there seem to be more in the creator theme rather than destroyer type, I imagine any overgods hostile to life would probably be restrained by Ao and the more like minded overgods, along with whatever ones answer to his boss.

• How would Ao feel about this?

Irritated to irate if they interfere with his duties, since he does appear to hold a measure of wrath. He's not going to be happy about it, although at the best case scenario, wary and cautious concerning their impact on the Balance proscribed by his boss.

• What would he/ could he do about it?

Depending on your view of him, he could likely eject a few or phone home for assistance, which may be forthcoming since his boss appears to be the one seeking to enforce cosmic balance. He might seek to form a coalition with like minded overgods to keep the more interventionist ones at bay.

• How would the other overgods treat/ handle Ao?

Presuming that at that level, they understand Ao is a representative of a vasly superior force and have some sort of self preservation instict, they would probably be very careful to act subtly. For overdeity types more along mindless demiurges, they'll probably do whatever they do, but likely they act slowly so they may be something he can resist or delay.

• Is there some cosmic law which prohibits other overgods from interfering with another overgods realm? Or is it simply a “don’t mess with mine and I won’t mess with yours” deal?

We don't know. Other than the Prince of Lies reference, the closest version of overgod tier characters competing may be the Serpent and the Lady of Pain, with the Serpent using Vecna as his pawn. The Serpent may not have motive or intelligence, however, depending on how he's been described. In any event, they didn't have a direct confrontation. The High God from Krynn seemed uninvolved with the Chaos episode and seems to have largely left Krynn. If I recall correctly, Chaos was some form of progeny or subordinate of the High God so it wasn't exactly directly adversarial.


Edited by - Veritas on 16 Sep 2017 02:20:25
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The Silver Sage
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Posted - 20 Sep 2017 :  01:30:30  Show Profile Send The Silver Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Veritas

To go with the tiny scraps of relevant lore, Ao resides outside of the cosmos. He just happens to be in charge of Realmspace. He's largely credited (whether correctly or incorrectly) with creating Realmspace in certain sourcebooks, although almost no one in the Realms should have any idea since, it appears he was virtually unknown prior to the Time of Troubles.

Overgods may have whatever traits you want, but the very few relevant depictions seem to be that they are largely uninvolved with the affairs of a crystal sphere other than whatever their specific sphere of interest is. In other words, for the most part, even without a crystal sphere, overgods are not likely to take an interest in Realmspace. If anything, I'd see them as more likely to create another universe than to meddle in Ao's affairs.

But remember, the one common trait is that they're almost entirely uninvolved. Few mortals are even aware of overgods. If they were overtly intervening, they'd be fairly well known throughout the published settings. But, from what little we know, they don't seem to be out there leading pantheons, overtly ruling, or otherwise meddling with the cosmos in any way that would likely be noticeable by mortals.

To quote the SRD "[Overgods] are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities."

Even Ao's intervention in the big picture was fixing an imbalance. While it looks like alot of intervention from our perspective, everything from the Time of Troubles to the Sundering may well be one event from his cosmic perspective. And he didn't act for the mortal's benefit so much as remind the gods to do their jobs and uphold their portfolios.

Ao's job is to maintain some kind of cosmic balance on behest of a higher power hinted at being the boss of many many other such overgods. The depictions we have is that Ao is likely supreme within Realmspace, since it is his assignment from a Supreme Being. James Lowder's "Prince of Lies" depicted a tome by Gargauth that referenced struggles against "weird being mightier than even Ao" yet Ao seems to have carried the day, so either Gargauth is mistaken, lying, or if correct, likely that Ao had some sort of home field advantage concerning Realmspace.

Ao's existing feats dwarf just about every other depicted overgodlike entity. Chaos, as depicted in Dragonlance, is decidedly less powerful. The Lady of Pain, whatever she is, has a known tally of one slain deity (Aoskar), barring deities from Sigil (within limits since she didn't immediately eject Finder Wyvernspur), and possibly pressuring or ejecting a greater god Vecna during the events of Die Vecna Die. She doesn't do so instantly, so either it wasn't an easy feat for her, or it would have ramifications for Sigil that we readers are unaware of.


Then we have the Serpent, which is probably best known as Vecna's little helper, an embodiment of magic who gave secrets to Vecna but hasn't taken any active effort, other than providing lore that allowed Vecna to subvert the Dark Powers of Ravenloft and use Ravenloft to bootstrap Vecna into Sigil.

Tharizdun got jail time from the combined might of other deities.

Krynn has the High God who is largely a prototypical creator deity. Io has been speculated as overdeity class (although I believe only ever depicted as a greater deity) and basically seeded worlds with progeny.

Ao's feats are beyond comparison, subjugating any and all deities at will, splitting apart and combining worlds, locking deities out of Realmspace, erasing Mystra's memories, turning Elminster into a polite host,but he has some arbitrary limits (being unable to, or claiming that, he could not restore Mystra as she was).

But bringing it back to your original point. Ao seems to be a stickler for Balance, whatever that means in your mind. He probably would permit the intervention of other overgods provided that they don't disrupt that balance. If they do disrupt that balance, he would oppose them. He's very much like a Marvel Abstract in that regard. He has something of a single track mind. He probably would not intervene if his intervention would destroy Realmspace in some cosmic battle since that doesn't appear to be his mandate. However, it does look like he can, if necessary, phone home to his super boss in relatively short order if necessary if he feels that he cannot handle a threat to Realmspace. Whether the boss would intervene on his behalf, or direct some of the seemingly many overgods who report to him to assist Ao is anyone's guess.

To address your questions point by point:

• What, if anything, would happen?

As overdeities are generally depicted, if they take an interest in the Realms, they probably would sit and watch before they'd start meddling. Some creator deity types might try to introduce a new species after giving an appropriate few millennia to examine the world and decide their progeny's place in it. They're not the sort of entities that act quickly. Since there seem to be more in the creator theme rather than destroyer type, I imagine any overgods hostile to life would probably be restrained by Ao and the more like minded overgods, along with whatever ones answer to his boss.

• How would Ao feel about this?

Irritated to irate if they interfere with his duties, since he does appear to hold a measure of wrath. He's not going to be happy about it, although at the best case scenario, wary and cautious concerning their impact on the Balance proscribed by his boss.

• What would he/ could he do about it?

Depending on your view of him, he could likely eject a few or phone home for assistance, which may be forthcoming since his boss appears to be the one seeking to enforce cosmic balance. He might seek to form a coalition with like minded overgods to keep the more interventionist ones at bay.

• How would the other overgods treat/ handle Ao?

Presuming that at that level, they understand Ao is a representative of a vasly superior force and have some sort of self preservation instict, they would probably be very careful to act subtly. For overdeity types more along mindless demiurges, they'll probably do whatever they do, but likely they act slowly so they may be something he can resist or delay.

• Is there some cosmic law which prohibits other overgods from interfering with another overgods realm? Or is it simply a “don’t mess with mine and I won’t mess with yours” deal?

We don't know. Other than the Prince of Lies reference, the closest version of overgod tier characters competing may be the Serpent and the Lady of Pain, with the Serpent using Vecna as his pawn. The Serpent may not have motive or intelligence, however, depending on how he's been described. In any event, they didn't have a direct confrontation. The High God from Krynn seemed uninvolved with the Chaos episode and seems to have largely left Krynn. If I recall correctly, Chaos was some form of progeny or subordinate of the High God so it wasn't exactly directly adversarial.





This is all very helpful. Thanks for your reply.
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