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Lhynard
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Posted - 17 Jul 2017 :  18:36:25  Show Profile  Visit Lhynard's Homepage Send Lhynard a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Alae!

I believe that this is my first topic on these forums, so I'll quickly introduce myself. I am one of the admins at the Forgotten Realms Wiki. One of my focuses there is on matters of verisimilitude in the Realms.

In this topic here, one of the difficulties mentioned regarded "fixing" so-called conflicts in Realms' canon. One of our tasks over at the FR Wiki is to record (though not fix) such conflicts within related articles. Sometimes, we do suggest "solutions" to these conflicts, but when we do so, we clearly state the alternatives.

Here are a few examples:
I would like to start a list of all such known conflicts, major or minor, so that we can be sure to record them on the FR Wiki. To this end, I am starting a project page over on the Wiki.

I would like to ask this community to either add directly to my list or post here describing the canon conflict.

It would be most helpful to me if you provide sources, for example, "Sourcebook A states on p. M that Elminster's favorite food is asparagus, whereas Sourcebook B says on p. N that he prefers Brussels sprouts."

Thanks for any help you can provide in starting such a list!

Edited by - Lhynard on 18 Jul 2017 03:11:13

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 17 Jul 2017 :  18:55:51  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The parameters of what is perceived as a conflict would be helpful.

Look at the Simbul, for example: in 2E sources she was a mage. The 3E FRCS made her a sorcerer. Now me, I call that a retcon, because mages and sorcerers are two very different beasts. It could be argued, though, that she was always a sorcerer, but no one realized that sorcerers and mages were different.

And she's just one example. A lot of big name characters have had wildly different levels and classes, even within a single edition.

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Lhynard
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Posted - 17 Jul 2017 :  19:12:25  Show Profile  Visit Lhynard's Homepage Send Lhynard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the reply. You raise a great point.

In general, I'll take anything really and sort through whatever I get.

But I should note that the wiki cares about matters of lore, not game mechanics ("crunch").

In the case of your specific example, the Simbul is stated from the very beginning to be a sorceress of great power. (See, e.g., The Seven Sisters, pp. 9, 38.) The lore has been consistent through the editions, to the best of my knowledge, though the crunch has changed. On the wiki, we use the terminology used in the sourcebooks to describe the lore in the body of the article, but in our "infobox" we have a 2e and a 3e tab where some of her crunchy stats are given in brief.

We strive to make the articles read as if they were in-universe. "Level" and "class" are not concepts that exist within the Realms. They exist only around the RPG table.

So, yes, to clarify, the conflicts about which I am primarily concerned regard lore.

Edited by - Lhynard on 18 Jul 2017 03:46:45
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Diffan
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3372 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2017 :  00:57:34  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So do the events in the Living Forgotten Realms campaigns count as Canon?

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Lhynard
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Posted - 18 Jul 2017 :  03:27:26  Show Profile  Visit Lhynard's Homepage Send Lhynard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Our canon policy over at the Wiki is here:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Forgotten_Realms_Wiki:Canon

In short:
quote:
"Canon", according to Ed Greenwood, is any published source relating to the Forgotten Realms campaign setting. This means that if it is for sale in paper (or digital) form then it is official Realmslore.

I don't personally know much about the Living Forgotten Realms. Someone before my time added some pages about it to the Wiki, but they have not been touched in years, and I have never personally seen it used as a citation for any articles on which I've worked.

Are there officially published paper or digital materials from the LFR?

Edited by - Lhynard on 18 Jul 2017 03:29:03
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Zeromaru X
Learned Scribe

Colombia
324 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2017 :  03:48:49  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When I started my "Returned Abeir" project (update or create articles about Returned Abeir) I asked the administrators of the wiki the same (I do not remember if I asked this to Lhynard or BadCatman), as much of the information about Laerakond is in the LFR adventures. They say that, at leasts using their canon policies, LFR is canon.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Zeromaru X
Learned Scribe

Colombia
324 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2017 :  03:51:16  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lhynard

Are there officially published paper or digital materials from the LFR?



At least, there are digital materials for 4e LFR. Those materials were supported by a few Dragon articles.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 18 Jul 2017 04:13:55
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Diffan
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3372 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2017 :  22:17:23  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Lhynard

Are there officially published paper or digital materials from the LFR?



At least, there are digital materials for 4e LFR. Those materials were supported by a few Dragon articles.




Exactly, thank you! I was wondering if the conflicts in these adventure paths were canon or not and them being so make certain plots way more relevant to the current Realms. I wish someone would put them in chronological order for easier reference than a giant list of LFR adventures (where many are amazingly awesome to play through) to pick from, lol.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4834 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2017 :  00:16:34  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The founding of Valashar isn't canon conflict. Steven Schend confirmed he got the dates wrong in LOI and fixed the dating in EotSS.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Lhynard
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Posted - 19 Jul 2017 :  01:05:46  Show Profile  Visit Lhynard's Homepage Send Lhynard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

The founding of Valashar isn't canon conflict. Steven Schend confirmed he got the dates wrong in LOI and fixed the dating in EotSS.

-- George Krashos


Exactly. If you read the note in the link, that's what we explain.
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Mirtek
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505 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2017 :  05:35:17  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
4e LFR was supposed to be canon at the beginning, it was one of their big selling points of the newest living campaign. However it was officially divorced from canon after a short period and was not canon from there on (which much later allowed them to cut lose with their epic finale)

Edited by - Mirtek on 19 Jul 2017 05:35:41
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Lhynard
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Posted - 19 Jul 2017 :  07:16:47  Show Profile  Visit Lhynard's Homepage Send Lhynard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

4e LFR was supposed to be canon at the beginning, it was one of their big selling points of the newest living campaign. However it was officially divorced from canon after a short period and was not canon from there on (which much later allowed them to cut lose with their epic finale)
What do you mean by "it was officially divorced from canon"? Where is such a statement found?
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KanzenAU
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Australia
721 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2017 :  08:28:57  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can't remember exactly where this was said either, but I do remember it being said. It happened in early 2010 from memory, with WotC moving away from LFR to its Encounters program. LFR continued to run, but everything was done by community volunteers, not WotC. Although this was done with WotC's endorsement, they no longer did canon approvals and thus declared everything from a certain point non-canon (at a guess, sometime in 2010). I imagine the early stuff is still canon though, because it went through a full approval process.

A quick search told me that the original info about this was on the now defunct Wizards boards (which hosted LFR originally), but this CK post provides some insight.

If taking the later LFR material as canon, there would be some huge canon conflicts to deal with - for instance, the EPIC series tells an entirely different tale about breaking the darkness over Sembia compared to the novel The Godborn.

Edit: Looking back at old Dragon magazine issues, I notice that the last time LFR was given any fanfare was in December 2009, which seems to coincide with the release of the last adventures with the code of "1", as far as I can tell. My guess is that anything with a 1 code was canon at the time (whether the current WotC team deem it canon now, I don't know), but anything with a later code is not. For example, I would guess module CORE1-17 is canon, but CORE2-1 is not (let alone series 3 to 6 taking place in 2011-2014).

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 19 Jul 2017 09:24:50
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Zeromaru X
Learned Scribe

Colombia
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Posted - 19 Jul 2017 :  12:43:41  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, basically we can say, all LFR until 2010 is canon, and all afterwards is non-canon...

So, this makes all the adventures in this page canon, and the ones in the main page non-canon.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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KanzenAU
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Posted - 19 Jul 2017 :  13:30:03  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If only t'were that simple! Some of that page are season 3 or later: eg. ADCP3-1 was made in 2011, ADCP5-2 in 2013.

It also sounds like a fair amount of 2010 adventures, if not all of them, are non-canon from the CK post I linked above. LFR adventures stopped being announced in Dragon Magazine at the end of 2009, the announcement that nothing more was going to be canon was made at the end of Q2 2010, they kept paying writers for Q3 2010, and then it was all done by the start of Q4 2010. Because they essentially cut off support half-way through the "2" season of 2010, I wouldn't be surprised if WotC now operate from a perspective of none of the "2" adventures being canon - it seems the easiest approach, because many of the adventures build into each other.

I might be wrong, but for my purposes I'd play it on the safer side and say all of 2010's LFR material wasn't canon.

Someone could probably reach out to Chris Tulach for a clearer opinion though, I think he managed LFR for WotC. (Edit: I have done so, I'll let everyone know if he replies - though I think he works on Magic now, so he may not know what the current D&D team thinks).

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 19 Jul 2017 13:38:23
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sleyvas
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USA
5464 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2017 :  14:08:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

If only t'were that simple! Some of that page are season 3 or later: eg. ADCP3-1 was made in 2011, ADCP5-2 in 2013.

It also sounds like a fair amount of 2010 adventures, if not all of them, are non-canon from the CK post I linked above. LFR adventures stopped being announced in Dragon Magazine at the end of 2009, the announcement that nothing more was going to be canon was made at the end of Q2 2010, they kept paying writers for Q3 2010, and then it was all done by the start of Q4 2010. Because they essentially cut off support half-way through the "2" season of 2010, I wouldn't be surprised if WotC now operate from a perspective of none of the "2" adventures being canon - it seems the easiest approach, because many of the adventures build into each other.

I might be wrong, but for my purposes I'd play it on the safer side and say all of 2010's LFR material wasn't canon.

Someone could probably reach out to Chris Tulach for a clearer opinion though, I think he managed LFR for WotC. (Edit: I have done so, I'll let everyone know if he replies - though I think he works on Magic now, so he may not know what the current D&D team thinks).



So the Epic 5-3 where you kill Entropy and Epic 6-1 wherein Shar actually has kidnapped Selune would be considered non-canon then. I wonder if this might not be a case of time altering due to the sundering.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Learned Scribe

Colombia
324 Posts

Posted - 20 Jul 2017 :  00:12:06  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I do prefer the way they handled the Sundering stuff in LFR than in the actual novels...

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13601 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2017 :  15:22:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The ruins of Amathtar, down in Luiren (or in Dambrath, depending on who you ask... which is the crux of the problem).

We have one set of lore for it in the original The Shining South supplement, and then a completely different set of lore for it in the 3e Shining South book.

I managed to merge the two in an article I had planned to write for a CKC, but of course that never happened. Maybe with this new venture I'll finally be able to do something with it.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13601 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2017 :  15:36:48  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From what I gathered, the LFR was producing tons of detail for the Realms, which went against what the 4e team had intended (the 'lore lite' approach). Thus, the 'divorce' (and I remember it as well).

They claim it was due to 'consistency problems', but at the end of the day, it was because they didn't want to have to once-again keep track of tons of canon... canon they had recently threw in the toilet themselves (in order to obliviate the need to do any research in their own Realms writings). This part is only somewhat conjecture, since they DID say that was their goal with the 'New Realms' in those podcasts they were doing when 4e came out: "We wanted to get rid of the feelings of entitlement" {grognardise}. They wanted a 'clean slate', and then the LFR people started filling it back up again, when all they really wanted from the LFR team was throw-away references in one-off adventures.

I had another continuity glitch I was going to mention, but now I can't recall it*. There are TONS of map-related ones, but those are mostly edition-related mistakes (so the map in question would be just plain wrong in that regard).


*It just popped back into my head - Urml, in/near the Wetwoods. Eric Boid 'fixed' it by creating 'Ermul' on the FRIA map (so now we have two different sets of lore, for two different - but nearby - settlements). The inconsistencies were caused by the EXTREMELY problematic Swords of the Iron Legion.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 22 Jul 2017 15:37:13
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 22 Jul 2017 :  16:15:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's a canon conflict that has long bugged me -- these quotes are from pages 16 and 19 of The Grand History of the Realms

quote:
c. –8800 DR
The Great Caverns of Bhaerynden collapse, creating the Great Rift [–9000, –7600].


quote:
c. –7600 DR
The drow empire of Telantiwar falls with the collapse of the great cavern of Bhaerynden. Drow refugees claim lesser caverns to the north, south, east and west of the newly formed Great Rift, establishing cities such as Llurth Dreier, the City of Ooze.
— The dwarves return to their ancestral home, now the Great Rift [–8800, –6000], and establish the Deep Realm. In the millennia that follow, the Stout Folk of the Deep Realm become known as the gold dwarves.


You could say that the cavern's collapse triggered the fall of Telantiwar, but that's a hard claim to make with 1200 year span of time between the two listings. A lot of empires never make it to 1200 years, much less spend 1200 years in decline.

Edit: Oh, hey, post 30,000!

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 Jul 2017 16:16:09
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Zeromaru X
Learned Scribe

Colombia
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Posted - 22 Jul 2017 :  16:26:58  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How long is an elven generation? If elves live 750 max. (according to 5e), for them 1200 years are like 3 generations (3 human generations are like 70-80 years). You could say that empires of long lived races then to live more than those of the short-lived races.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13601 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2017 :  17:47:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That one never bothered me - I feel 'it works'. Technically (maybe), the first part of the second quote should have been under the entry in the first quote - I just assume that item took place between those two years, and was 'completed' as of the dwarves arrival at the rift.

I actually have some really cool (IMO) lore to go with the dwarven arrival, having just 'fled' something in the Yehimals, and its all related to my (ancient) Zakhara lore. I am starting to eagerly await the CandleKanon Wiki.

EDIT:
The GHotR entries that bother me the most are these -

quote:
c. –31500 DR
Under the wise leadership of Zhoukoudien, batrachi power reaches its zenith. The High One’s reign ends when he is slain in battle by the titan thane Omo.


quote:
c. –30000 DR
The great giant god Annam All-Father marries Othea, a lesser demigoddess of Toril. Their union produces eight terrestrial children. Ostoria, the Colossal Kingdom, is founded by Annam in honor of his sons.


Thus, a Titan appears in the histories before the parents of the first titans got together.

Note the capitalization - thats part of my solution for that. The first was a Celestial (First World) Titan, and created whole-cloth as part of the 'least' (near-mortal) tier of the Primordials. The later, Torillian ones were born in the normal manner of procreation, and were fully mortal (because at that point, it was post-Sundering and 'Death' had come into the universe). This isn't even much of a stretch - the Planescape Titans WERE 'bigger, grander' (and more ancient) versions of the terrestrial ones (and there is some evidence that such exists for most of the Giantkin). I would assume any D&D worlds with Titans would have their own, terrestrial (Prime Material) variety, and there could be differences between them. Most of the originals (Primal Titans?) are forced to stay where they are in the Outer Planes, and many are even confined in Carceri. I just checked Wikipedia, and it refers to these PS Titans as 'Greater Titans'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 22 Jul 2017 18:17:15
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30015 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2017 :  17:56:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

How long is an elven generation? If elves live 750 max. (according to 5e), for them 1200 years are like 3 generations (3 human generations are like 70-80 years). You could say that empires of long lived races then to live more than those of the short-lived races.



That's still saying that X happened, and as a result, Y happened 3 generations later. That's still a hell of a long separation between the two.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 22 Jul 2017 :  18:08:37  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

That one never bothered me - I feel 'it works'. Technically (maybe), the first part of the second quote should have been under the entry in the first quote - I just assume that item took place between those two days, and was 'completed' as of the dwarves arrival at the rift.




It makes sense that the cavern collapsed, the drow fled, and the dwarves showed up later... And that is the easiest fix.

But it's not what the text says. It gives two dates for the collapse of the cavern and the formation of the Great Rift.

BRJ himself acknowledged it as a discrepancy:

quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Now, I can buy that the empire struggled and stuck around for 1200 years after the cavern came tumbling down. But, we have two references to it having collapsed, and the second uses the phrase "newly formed" -- which doesn't apply to something 1200 years old.
The c.-8800 DR date is from Shining South p. 170. The c.-7600 date comes from Races of Faerűn p. 11. Doesn’t exactly resolve the issue, but that’s where the discrepancy came from.


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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 Jul 2017 18:09:29
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 22 Jul 2017 :  18:26:01  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Its easy-enough to just say that parts of the cavern had begun to collapse during the first date, and those parts were evacuated. Over time, other parts were abandoned (ostensibly, because of further collapsing... knowing Drow, they probably just kept stupidly digging/modifying their tunnels regardless). The tunnel complex surrounding the Great Rift is insanely extensive, going for hundreds of miles in every direction. I can definitely see the main cavern being evacuated, and then the Drow just kept pushing out into the side-tunnels, widening/creating them as they went, and eventually the dwarves show up, and the few drow 'hold-outs' that were still around simply fled at that point.

As I said, I can see it taking a very long time to happen, especially considering there is a geological factor as well. Its like trying to put a precise date on 'The Fall of Rome'.

Now, as to why the 'Drow magics' somehow failed to maintain their support, we can have all sorts of fun with that. We've seen some evidence of other large Drow complexes suffering similarly (though not nearly as spectacularly) whenever magic ran amok. Dwarves build so that the stone supports itself, but in most cases, the drow just prop stuff up with magic (and I did read that somewhere). Could this be when they first began using Faerzress? Could that have had a deteriorating effect on their original magic? The two were incompatible? Like I said, lots of fun conjecture we can do here.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 22 Jul 2017 18:30:21
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 22 Jul 2017 :  20:29:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If it was only part of the cavern, it's not the Great Rift. Both entries refer to that.

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