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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3346 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2017 :  21:42:47  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I was just reading about New Olamn in a dragon magazine and it got me to thinking about why Khelben formed the Moonstars.

It seems like New Olamn was founded due to the loss of music lore in Waterdeep (and possibly across the North).

I remember reading about how the Harpers spread this music lore across the north originally (after their second refounding I think) and this coincided with the destruction of the college in the Moonshaes and the spread of its teachers across the North (where they founded colleges in their own name).


I wonder if the loss of music lore was deliberate. Was some evil deliberately targeting music colleges across the north and discrediting bardic traditions and eliminating prominent bards.

Did the harpers fall too far away from their musical traditions, perhaps the new members are no longer taught any musical lore or bardic traditions. Do the Moonstars train new agents in music. Is perhaps music the key to defeating the evils Khelben foresaw.

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Cards77
Senior Scribe

USA
540 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2017 :  03:22:03  Show Profile Send Cards77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seemed to me with the last novel set (Archwizards) that there are two magic traditions: the Art ie "regular magic" and the bardic/song magic (can't remember the name at the moment).

I always thought that the fall of the bardic schools was just due to attrition in the more rare "song magic" of the bardic tradition. So while lore and music is still easy enough to find (Candlekeep etc), the song magic faded as the Elves retreated and lost influence.

To me the founding of New Olamn is a natural step in the story line in the return of the elves and the 'song magic'.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13604 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2017 :  06:26:49  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One of the Harper Novels focused on Elven Muscical (Bardic?) magical traditions. It was one of Elaine's novels, and Elaith Craulnober was in it. I remember thinking how cool it was - there was a dragon, and some discussion of a 'lost Elven art' of music, and even a musical artifact (Morninglark - a harp).

just looked it up - Elfsong

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jul 2017 06:27:51
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3346 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2017 :  08:53:08  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I'm pretty sure there are hundreds of magic traditions but they all tend to boil down to two things: ones that use the weave and ones that use raw magic.

The elves tend to have their more traditional rituals from ancient times use raw magic (their elven high magic stuff). I'm thinking this song magic is just one way of performing those rituals. The drow have a similar bardic magic tradition that survives through a secret society in Menzoberranzan (can't remember the complicated name) and is a vestige of Illythiiri traditions.

Maybe the Moonstars is Khelben's way of trying to preserve the ancient elven magic traditions (involving song) because he knows the real threat to come is yet another collapse of the weave.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13604 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2017 :  22:44:13  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I tend to think of song/music/bardic magic all connected to the Seeker of the Song and the Sublime Chord (and 'The Music of the Spheres'), and also to the original language 'of the gods' (which Hamafae would be derived from, and as beautiful as it is, it would be a very pale reflection indeed of the purely mental language the Gods spoke at the Dawn of Time), and Giantish/Dwarven (magical) runes would also be the written form.

'The Dark Tongue' would be its antithesis (the one Riven speaks - its derived from 'shadowy sources').

In the WoT there is a group of 'wanderers' called the Tautha'an (note the first part of the name), and when they meet each other, they ask, "Have you found the song?" Its a gypsy-like ethnic group that wanders around just searching for some ancient, lost 'song'. Also, in the movie City of Angels, the angels would gather at dawn & dusk, because they could hear music as the sun rose and set. I really like that part.

In the Book of Genesis, it is written that God said, "let there be Light!" But you know what I think? I think he sang it. I think the whole universe is a song that continues to be sung. If you study Celtic lore, their most powerful Mages were really bards, and they could sing mountain ranges into existence. Thats some pretty primal stuff right there.

Oh, and when you study Fairy folklore, one recurring theme is that when someone with some musical talent hear's the Fey music, they can start playing along, and they can change it, forcing the fairies into their own version (fairies, of course, being very primal spirits themselves). First you tap into 'The Song' of the universe, then you can alter it. You change reality itself. Thats what those ancient Celtic Mages were doing. Thats what Elves using High Magic are doing (there is also a dancing element - I suppose its the somatic component to the Song).


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jul 2017 23:04:51
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Cards77
Senior Scribe

USA
540 Posts

Posted - 05 Jul 2017 :  01:51:58  Show Profile Send Cards77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

One of the Harper Novels focused on Elven Muscical (Bardic?) magical traditions. It was one of Elaine's novels, and Elaith Craulnober was in it. I remember thinking how cool it was - there was a dragon, and some discussion of a 'lost Elven art' of music, and even a musical artifact (Morninglark - a harp).

just looked it up - Elfsong



That's what I was thinking of. I thought there was SOME reference to that in Return of the Archwizards. Something about how the musical tradition or that part of Elven High Magic is now lost or forgotten?

I also thought that Danilo was still attempting to master this "other rare" type of magical tradition and that was all tied back to the events in Elfsong, and led to the founding of New Olamn.
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Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Learned Scribe

USA
227 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  00:09:57  Show Profile Send Xnella Moonblade-Thann a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Danilo can cast what is known as the Elven "Spellsong", though he denies it and most other Elven magic spells that he knows when asked by other people who have no need to know his real extent to his magical ability. The only reason why he can do so is because he is like 5/16ths Elven-blooded and you have to be a minimum of 1/8ths (2/16ths) Elven-blooded to be able to do so according to 3.5e rules for the Spell Singer prestige class (Races of Faerūn, pg. 185). He is even mentioned as one of the few humans able to do so.

"Sweet water and light laughter until next we meet." - traditional elven farewell

Please forgive any spelling and grammer errors, as my android touch-screen phone has no spellchecker. If I do make a grammer mistake, please let me know and I'll try to fix it.

Somehow I'm missing my Eberron stuff that the gremlins took when my laptop died over a year ago, but I shall get them buggers yet!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30018 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  03:46:16  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann

Danilo can cast what is known as the Elven "Spellsong", though he denies it and most other Elven magic spells that he knows when asked by other people who have no need to know his real extent to his magical ability. The only reason why he can do so is because he is like 5/16ths Elven-blooded and you have to be a minimum of 1/8ths (2/16ths) Elven-blooded to be able to do so according to 3.5e rules for the Spell Singer prestige class (Races of Faerūn, pg. 185). He is even mentioned as one of the few humans able to do so.



I believe it was also stated that his ability was because of Arilyn's moonblade, and that after the events of Silver Shadows, he lost that ability.

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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1411 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  21:24:26  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I was just reading about New Olamn in a dragon magazine and it got me to thinking about why Khelben formed the Moonstars.
[...]
Do the Moonstars train new agents in music. Is perhaps music the key to defeating the evils Khelben foresaw.

- I want to train people in a certain music tradition.
- I know! I'll cause a schism in the secret society we oversee now and have a personal army of stalwart tin spies/assassins. That's the most efficient and reliable way to do it.
- Makes sense.

And these people think Finder was a bit out of it.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30018 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  21:32:53  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Neither Finder nor bardcraft had anything to do with the formation of the Moonstars. Khelben founded the Moonstars because the Harpers had strayed from their original purpose, and because he needed agents that didn't cleave to quite the same moral compass that the Harpers did.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1411 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2017 :  06:37:15  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Neither Finder nor bardcraft had anything to do with the formation of the Moonstars.

Indeed. He wanted to preserve a musical tradition.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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