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 After Mystras murder, what of her petitioners?
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mastermustard
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Posted - 16 Jun 2017 :  22:02:44  Show Profile Send mastermustard a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
After Mystra's murder at the hands of Shar and Cyric, the entire plane of Dweamerheart was annihilated, killing Savras outright and sending Azuth plummeting to the lower realms where he was quickly murdered by Asmodeus, who coveted his divine spark.

Something that I don't think was ever elaborated on was the fate of the three deities' divine servants and petitioners who lived on the plane. When Mystra was revived she went right back to greater-deity status and I'm wondering if her divine realm is currently mostly empty or if the previous residents have returned in some capacity.

Irennan
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Italy
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Posted - 16 Jun 2017 :  22:22:02  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mastermustard

After Mystra's murder at the hands of Shar and Cyric, the entire plane of Dweamerheart was annihilated, killing Savras outright and sending Azuth plummeting to the lower realms where he was quickly murdered by Asmodeus, who coveted his divine spark.

Something that I don't think was ever elaborated on was the fate of the three deities' divine servants and petitioners who lived on the plane. When Mystra was revived she went right back to greater-deity status and I'm wondering if her divine realm is currently mostly empty or if the previous residents have returned in some capacity.



As for a lot of doubts that the 5e changes (or rather rollbacks) raise, we don't have an official answer for it. We however know that Mystra wasn't actually killed, neither was the Weave destroyed, since Mystra had foreseen all this and prepared contingencies. Since she isn't a deity who neglects her followers, I think that she also prepared contingencies to protect the souls of her dead followers. Maybe they were protected by allied deities, maybe not all of the Dweomerheart was shattered and the souls were gathered there, or yet she created a hidden refuge, or stuff along those lines. If you want to be in line with the plot devices used in the Sundering, then everything is mostly back to how it was before 3e. This could be applied to the other deities as well: for example, we know that Asmodeus wasn't able to fully kill Azuth, and that in the end he managed to re-emerge. Savras is the deity of divination itself, so I'm sure that he was among the first to plan contingencies for this kind of events.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 16 Jun 2017 22:23:17
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mastermustard
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Posted - 16 Jun 2017 :  22:24:51  Show Profile Send mastermustard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My thanks. I'm always a few steps behind when it comes to revisions and updates to the lore.

Edited by - mastermustard on 16 Jun 2017 23:19:08
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see
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176 Posts

Posted - 17 Jun 2017 :  03:24:26  Show Profile Send see a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We know, from the lore, that the 1e Mystra foresaw the Time of Troubles and took steps to mitigate the issue. This of course might have had something to do with Savras's foresight. We also know that Leira, goddess of illusions and illusionists, could fool the gods themselves. And we were never told exactly what happened to Leira's realm and followers after her supposed "death" at the hands of a just-ascended human, nor where Leira's former realm was in the 3e cosmology. So, the obvious thing to me is a deception. Right after the Time of Troubles and the Second Sundering, Leira faked her death and hid her realm, and then that hidden refuge was used by other deities of magic and their petitioners after the Cyric/Shar attempt on Mystra's life.

"It was all a dream" is of course an unsatisfying conclusion in fiction generally, but given the messes involved, "Leira did it!" works reasonably well.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 17 Jun 2017 :  12:30:41  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by see

We know, from the lore, that the 1e Mystra foresaw the Time of Troubles and took steps to mitigate the issue. This of course might have had something to do with Savras's foresight. We also know that Leira, goddess of illusions and illusionists, could fool the gods themselves. And we were never told exactly what happened to Leira's realm and followers after her supposed "death" at the hands of a just-ascended human, nor where Leira's former realm was in the 3e cosmology. So, the obvious thing to me is a deception. Right after the Time of Troubles and the Second Sundering, Leira faked her death and hid her realm, and then that hidden refuge was used by other deities of magic and their petitioners after the Cyric/Shar attempt on Mystra's life.

"It was all a dream" is of course an unsatisfying conclusion in fiction generally, but given the messes involved, "Leira did it!" works reasonably well.



I'm actually going very similar lines, and ones that tie in with the whole Abeir/Toril crossover. Dweomerheart (and some other deific planes such as the Mulhorandi one) "crossed over" their world tree attachments to Abeir. Cyric wasn't "locked away"... he went with it. Leira was involved, as was Savras (who was working with Leira oddly enough, even though most would consider the two enemies... they both are magic's servants) . Leira, Savras, Auppenser (who also lived on the plane), Velsharoon, and Deneir (and others) worked in Abeir to nurse Mystra back to health in Abeir by building up a weave in that world and spreading the use of magic.

On the Velsharoon thing, my current thoughts are he was actually entrapped in a phylactery and Mellifleur had taken over the "godhood" in Toril again. That is who the Simbul killed. Meanwhile, Velsharoon was released from a phylactery he kept in the Tower Terrible in Soorenar through the combined aid of several mortal servants of the gods of magic (Zulkir Yaphyll for Savras and Zulkir Mythrell'aa for Leira) and some other spellcasters (including the daughter of Zulkir Lauzoril, Mimuay Tavai). Velsharoon may have had some involvement with the raising from the dead of some other gods, but he did temporarily occupy the body of Mimuay Tavai, and before leaving it, he did magically awaken the clone of Lauzoril (with the memories it had at the time of the making of the clone a year prior) also in Soorenar, as a reward for her willingness to serve as his temprorary avatar until he could complete the ritual necessary to ascend again.


Oh, and since I'm revealing this much, may as well discuss some of the other options I'm thinking of doing.

Tharchion Dmitra Flass also had a clone, but this one in the Thayan enclave in the city of Cimbar. Mimuay had developed a closeness to this woman over the past decade after her own mother's death as a result of Szass Tam's actions in flooding Thazalhar with undead. This clone was awakened as well, becoming the Aulkir of Illusion for the Tharch of Peleveran (where Lauzoril also became the first Zulkir of the United Tharchs of Toril). The two became close and eventually wed, and so this Zulkir and Aulkir rule specifically over the Tharch of Peleveran, along with their children and grandchildren and great grandchildren.

Also right after Velsharoon's release, he cast powerful ritual of necromancy that pulled thousands of Chessentans, dragonborn and genasi from their graves for hundreds of miles. Savras then blessed these undead with the ability to see through magical disguises and other divinatory blessings. Leira also granted these undead the ability to cloak themselves in illusions to hide their undead nature and appear as their former selves. Finally, Auppenser awakened a spark of their former consciousness, such that these beings could hold conversations, and it is whispered that some of these undead can even peer into the minds of others and perceive their thoughts. These undead are tasked with protecting the living of Cimbar and Soorenar. "Reborn Chessenta" has since swelled with populations of genasi and dragonborn (who are treated as second class citizens by the Mulans and Chessentans of these cities) seeking the freedoms of this land over the oppression of Shyr. Many of them treat the undead surrounding their territory with great reverence, for they are their own ancestors.
One of the things that also occurred right after the transfer to Abeir and the release of Velsharoon is that Velsharoon travelled to a small pocket of earth beneath Bezantur that had actually transferred to Abeir. In this pocket was entrapped the demilich Ythazz Buvarr, one of the founders of Thay and one of the creators of Zulkirate. Whether Velsharoon was involved with Ythazz's imprisonment (for getting Velsharoon kicked out of the country which he helped free), I haven't decided, but he decides to free Ythazz and place him as the leader of the undead which now surround Cimbar and Soorenar (which were treated as a remote portion of Tharch of Peleveran while they were in Abeir), and he was specifically tasked with protecting Velsharoon's temples and the Tower Terrible in Soorenar. Ythazz has created several bodies which he can possess using magic, allowing him to instantly transfer his consciousness between the cities of Cimbar, Soorenar, and Peleveran. Ythazz Buvarr is considered both the autharch of "Reborn Chessenta" (as the region containing Cimbar and Soorenar became known) and the Aulkir of Evocation for the Tharch of Peleveran. It irks him that he, the first Zulkir of Evocation, is not accepted as a Zulkir by his fellows, but with the aggression of the nearby country of Shyr, he didn't have opportunity to do much more than defend his territory. With the return of Abeir, he has been heard to say that perhaps he should expand his territories and form a new Tharch. Zulkir Lauzoril Tavai and Aulkir Dmitra Flass however have been heard to be discussing using the tens of thousands of undead in "Reborn Chessenta" in a campaign to oust Szass Tam, a scheme which is said to have the blessing of the United Tharch Zulkir of Necromancy Mimuay Tavai and her deity, Velsharoon.


I've also written up that during the years following Dmitra's marriage to High Blade Selfaril, she made strategic investments in land surrounding the vast, and during the Thayan civil war she made improvements in those lands so as to encourage the acceptance of Mulan immigrants. These immigrants remember Dmitra fondly, and her great grandchildren (who are also great grandchildren of the former ruler of Mulmaster, but who forsook their claims to the throne) fill positions of power throughout this region. For instance, surrounding the town of Blanaer she had bought several hundred acres of unused and undeveloped land. The town was previously known for the smell of its cattle and their dung ("stinks like Blanaer" was a common saying in the region), and the Mulan immigrants came in, bringing flowers, building wells, and digging irrigation canals. Now the town is known for its second industry as a land of beautiful flowers and numerous nurseries and its secluded ponds are something of a simple vacation getaway for the poor of Vesperin. The people of Blanaer have accepted their Mulan neighbors happily due to the.

Similarly, in the nearby towns of Kurth and King's Reach there were problems that Dmitra Flass and her Mulan immigrants with their expertise came in and solved. For instance, Kurth was known for having alcohol that was made with essentially recycled urine because they had very little water. King's Reach was known for its numerous miners seeking precious metals (and producing mounds of slag rock over the past several decades). Between these two relatively close cities were mountain passes filled with orcs and goblinoids. The Mulans came in, slaughtered the majority of these nuisance races, animated them as untiring slaves, and then proceeded to cart the unneeded slag rock of King's Reach to build an aqueduct that brought water to both cities. This made the city of King's Reach more amenable to minor farming, as its soil was no long clogged with rocks. This also made the city of Kurth a more popular stopping point for caravans travelling the Vast's interior, as the path from Kurth to King's Reach is now one of the most safe passages in the area, complete with stopping points for watering animals and having simple meals prepared at local Mulan run inns and taverns.

With the return of the Tharch of Peleveran (which is essentially a large portion of the eastern Shaar from the landrise moving eastward) to Toril from Abeir, Dmitra Flass has checked in on her former land holdings in the vast. She found a land where she was greeted not only with welcome, but gladness and even a statue of her in Blanaer. These three towns surround the North/Northeastern/Eastern border of the relatively young country of Vesperin, which also holds Thayan enclaves in two of its three major cities (Calaunt and Ravens Bluff).


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 17 Jun 2017 14:54:59
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 18 Jun 2017 :  14:34:56  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Dwoemerheart ended up where Ziggaraxus still is for now, which my hypothesis suggests is the Shadowfell.

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sleyvas
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USA
5348 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2017 :  13:59:42  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
btw, sorry for going off on such a tangent... but it helped me think through some stuff to throw in another document. Need to come back here and steal my own stuff and rewrite it slightly.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 20 Jun 2017 :  20:34:44  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Considering how many gods have died over the countless millennia (and the 'mental proximity' of another nearby thread I recently responded to), the image of a "city of lost souls" just popped into my head - a sort-of limbo where 'the godless' go when their god... and afterlife... are no more.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jun 2017 20:35:33
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 22 Jun 2017 :  17:08:47  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is why I wish a lot more info had been given. As mentioned, we know Mystra didn't actually die, so even though the first indication was that her realm was destroyed, it has since been suggested otherwise.

When the Spellplague first happened, this was something I was concerned about (we all know by now I am interested in the afterlife and concerned about souls lol). Mystra had many past and present followers, so the thought that all those petitioners were destroyed didn't sit well with me. This seems to have been rectified, even if it was done so "off screen".

This kind of reminds me of the world I created in my own writing (not FR related). Within the afterlife, there is an "afterlife" for celestials (angels and other sorts), and deities.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 22 Jun 2017 17:27:27
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 22 Jun 2017 :  21:36:42  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A post-Afterlife. LOL

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 22 Jun 2017 :  21:40:54  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

A post-Afterlife. LOL



Lol sort of. In my own writing, the celestials aren't former mortals. They've always been celestials, so they are still "living". It's not so much a post-afterlife.

In FR, the "limbo realm" where petitioners might go if their deity dies could be considered a "post-afterlife", if a temporary one until another deity takes up their gods mantle, or they are assigned elsewhere.

Sweet water and light laughter
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TBeholder
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Posted - 23 Jun 2017 :  05:18:22  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by see

We know, from the lore, that the 1e Mystra foresaw the Time of Troubles and took steps to mitigate the issue. This of course might have had something to do with Savras's foresight.

Wasn't Savras imprisoned in Azuth's sceptre and mostly powerless until the end of ToT?

quote:
"It was all a dream" is of course an unsatisfying conclusion in fiction generally, but given the messes involved, "Leira did it!" works reasonably well.

This would certainly explain why so much sense was not made.

Then again, there were little bells much earlier - supposedly Leira herself provides disguise for Toril's whole moon (or at least the whole Toril-facing side), and it didn't vanish when she was "killed". Not that Realmspace book is widely lauded for its quality...

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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sleyvas
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USA
5348 Posts

Posted - 23 Jun 2017 :  13:05:15  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just to play devil's advocate for a second, yes Savras was entrapped in a scepter. He was still a part of the weave though, and he still had followers for centuries, and it wasn't ever said that Azuth was granting them spells in Savras' name, nor do I recall it ever being said that they could only get lesser spells. So, the question becomes "what does being entrapped in a scepter actually mean for the god of divination?". I see it like he was incapable of manifesting an avatar, maybe he was incapable of working against Azuth, and maybe he generally couldn't interact with the world on much of a level beyond providing prophecies and dreams... which maybe he was actually fine with to a degree. Hell, he may have allowed himself to be trapped to prevent a future calamity to himself that he'd foreseen.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 23 Jun 2017 :  14:53:29  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am going to agree. A trapped god is still a living god, and they may still be able to exert some (albeit limited) influence.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13441 Posts

Posted - 23 Jun 2017 :  15:03:26  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

A post-Afterlife. LOL



Lol sort of. In my own writing, the celestials aren't former mortals. They've always been celestials, so they are still "living". It's not so much a post-afterlife.

In FR, the "limbo realm" where petitioners might go if their deity dies could be considered a "post-afterlife", if a temporary one until another deity takes up their gods mantle, or they are assigned elsewhere.
I was actually thinking about what I said - a city of people disenfranchised from the whole god/worship thing because their gods died.

Forlorn - City of the Forsaken

And since I've been talking abut it so much in other threads, why not stick it in the Border ethereal ('The Mittlemarch')? "Cast from the heavens, but no longer welcome in the mortal realms, the folk of Forlorn ar a pragmatic, melancholy lot. Reachable from everywhere, but in the middle of nowhere, Forlorn is a testament to the fact that nothing lasts forever, and even gods can die."

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Jun 2017 15:09:12
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