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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
604 Posts

Posted - 18 May 2017 :  14:42:45  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Just wanted to make sure I'm not crazy, and that some stuff said in Powers and Pantheons goes is contradicted by later sources. Admittedly this is all in the setting of an in-universe text, so it can be easily discarded if necessary...

Examples:
Dwarves arrive on Toril before elves
Halflings have civilizations before the giants arrive
A human migration of stout sea-going warriors and raiders from two lands of cold and harsh winters occurs over a millennia after the fall of Netheril

I know people here would already be aware of this stuff - but I'm interesting in how people explain it. Especially that last bit about that group of humans (at a guess, the Norse and the Finnish), who would have to have appeared after 661 DR... seems a bit late?

Has anyone tried to weave this in with the later lore? Or do people just discard it (or the more recent stuff)?

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5229 Posts

Posted - 18 May 2017 :  16:46:34  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

Just wanted to make sure I'm not crazy, and that some stuff said in Powers and Pantheons goes is contradicted by later sources. Admittedly this is all in the setting of an in-universe text, so it can be easily discarded if necessary...

Examples:
Dwarves arrive on Toril before elves
Halflings have civilizations before the giants arrive
A human migration of stout sea-going warriors and raiders from two lands of cold and harsh winters occurs over a millennia after the fall of Netheril

I know people here would already be aware of this stuff - but I'm interesting in how people explain it. Especially that last bit about that group of humans (at a guess, the Norse and the Finnish), who would have to have appeared after 661 DR... seems a bit late?

Has anyone tried to weave this in with the later lore? Or do people just discard it (or the more recent stuff)?




This has been one of the many issues with the lore between editions. Part of the problem is sheer time that's passed between 2e and now. For instance, when P&P was written that was what... 1997? So, at that time I was just hitting my stride with D&D and a young man. Now, its 20 years later, and we've had MUCH lore that contradicts come out. This is why I love the GHotR myself, because its at least an attempt to put some order to this chaos.

BTW, its kind of funny that you asked this, as I just started a thread where I was hoping to start tracking empires on a broad scale. I listed a several of the major human ones, but none of the non-human ones. I think this would be a useful tool if several of us started listed the more off the wall entries we find.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13385 Posts

Posted - 18 May 2017 :  21:10:05  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, we've tried reconciling some of that, but at this point we have to say that lore is 'apocryphal'. Mostly true, but mixed with legends and folklore, and the exact timeline (of when various cultures rose & fell) is a bit mixed-up because of that (not to mention TIME).

My 'Dathite' lore comes from that one line about, "an influx from two neighboring lands - one a land of glory and empire, the other a patchwork of citystates and bold philosophies - whose pantheons reflected, but did not precisely duplicate each other." That, and the few Greco-Roman deities we have, or have been mentioned in passing.

I think there are (at least) two separate lists of 'Creator Races', much how we have different lists for 'Wonders of the World'. Some civilizations probably included the dragons (as mentioned in P&P) - the elves probably did, since many of them lived under draconic rule for a time. I doubt the elves would have included humans.

As for the Dwarves, well, I've always felt the pre-dated the elves, because the elves themselve are NOT an 'original' race, but rather, a created one. In the pre-sundered world of Abeir-Toril we had the Creator Races, and among those were the Fey (faerie). In Monstrous Mythology we have the legend of the Black Diamond Affair (which I feel is the SAME Black diamond currently in the Crown of Horns - its basically a hunk of crystallized, pure EVIL), and that states that the Fey left their first world for elsewhere when the Black Diamond corrupted the Queen's (Titania) sister (the Queen of Air & Darkness) and all the former lands of the Fey (Ladinion). That would mean Ladinion would have to have been on Abeir-Toril, and would have been destroyed just prior to the Sundering (going by the GHotR, when the Fey fled Realmspace). This was all BEFORE Elves even existed. And the elves are an offshoot - a 'creation' - of the Fey (I peg them as the mortal children of True Fey, because True Fey could no longer have more True Fey (Le'Shay) after Death came into the world - one of the 'side effects' of that first Godwar and the Sundering). During that tale, the Dwarves found the Black Diamond and gave it to the Queen's sister - that means dwarves had to have been present on that First World - the one with the Fey and the other Creator Races.

Also, in the sourcebook Giantcraft, it mentions that Elves & Dwarves have ancient history tomes that tell of the wars between the giants and the dragons, which pushes the dwarven presence at least as far back as the Dawn Ages. Speaking of which, Dwarves would probably list Giants as a 'Creator Race' (since I think dwarves are actually an offshoot of giants - thats why we have gnomes & dwarves that can grow larger, and we have firbolgs that can become smaller).

Theory:
Back in the Days of Thunder - when Abeir-Toril was whole, magic was still 'raw enough' (uber-powerful) for most races to be able to control their forms somewhat. The Creator races (Creatori) to a lesser extent, but the races that were created specifically as 'helpers' in building the universe - which includes the dragons, giants, and dwarves - were more malleable. They were able to change their forms dependent upon their needs, and the environment. This is why both dragons and giants - and dwarves to a lesser extent (already being a sub-type) - take-on 'elemental specializations'. Way back in the dawn Ages this was probably done a case-by-case basis - Stone giants, 'electric' (blue) dragons, fire giants and flame (red) dragons, etc. In fact, it seems the giants specialized in elements, and the dragons specialized in energies (although just about everything would have been 'allowed' - beings were 'fully customizable' at that point). We even have 'fire dwarves' (Azer). Now fast forward to after the Dawn War/Sundering, and suddenly they can't do this 'at will' anymore (although some sub-groups still have vestigial abilities relating to this). Dragons/Giants are 'stuck' in their subtype, for the most part (similar things happened to the Creatori - like all the fey subtypes).

As for the illithids, thats a whole 'nother thread topic. The favored theory (last time I checked) is that they are from the end of time, and they've 'come back' trying to correct some big mistake. Something involving the Gith species. Very convoluted but kewl... and that allows us to really do whatever we want with them, timeline-wise, since they are (theoretically) 'out of time' anyway.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 18 May 2017 21:16:37
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13385 Posts

Posted - 18 May 2017 :  21:38:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, a really nifty idea I read in Secrets (AEG) was that "dwarves don't have females because they are literally 'born of stone'." Now, we know in FR (and other D&D settings) there ARE female dwarves. However, what if that wasn't always the case? What if the Urdunnir were in actuality closer to the 'dwarven truth'? That they are really the purest of dwarves, and without females, and 'born of the stone'.

But, over countless millennia, dwarves had abandoned 'the old ways' (and their connections to the giants), and have crossbred with other humanoids, so that they CAN have female now. In fact, I think THAT is what happened to the bearded dwarven women - the 'purer the stock', the closer to the original (all-male) form the dwarf is. Since nearly all (AFAIK) 'modern dwarves' have females, and most have beardless females, that just shows you how diluted dwarven blood has become.

To take this theory a step further, perhaps this is why dwarves had such low birth rates - its unnatural. As in the book of SECRETS, occasionally dwarves would uncover a dwarf-shaped rock in their diggings, and they would take it someplace special (some sort of 'creche') and there it would slowly transform into a new dwarf. Because they've now taken to 'breeding' like the lesser races, new (stone) dwarves are rarely ever found (or perhaps, they aren't found since the Sundering). Because Dwarven culture has taken a turn away from the crossbreeding - finding it 'unwholesome' - they inadvertently removed the crucial catalyst they needed to breed sexually. Then comes the 'Thunder Blessing' as of 3e, and the Mordinsamman infuse 'life' (ie, 'Mana', which helps us explain Dwarf Mages as well) into their race, so that they would no longer rely on the occasional influx of non-dwarven DNA in order to breed naturally (or unnaturally, in their case).

The dwarves were always missing that 'spark' that true (sexual) races have. Now they have it.

EDIT:
I also have some pretty cool (IMO lol) lore regarding giants and breeding, and their subtypes, but since that goes WAY outside of canon, I prefer to save all of that as 'stand alone' giant lore for another setting someday (hopefully my own, but you never know).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 18 May 2017 21:42:22
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
604 Posts

Posted - 18 May 2017 :  23:14:27  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cheers for the quick answers guys. I'm doing my own work on migrations at the moment, and read that passage and had a "wait, what" moment.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13385 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2017 :  01:38:35  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, we had tons of discussions along these lines, and about those passages from that book, back when the WotC forums were very active. Too bad all that stuff is just lost now.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5229 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2017 :  12:42:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Also, a really nifty idea I read in Secrets (AEG) was that "dwarves don't have females because they are literally 'born of stone'." Now, we know in FR (and other D&D settings) there ARE female dwarves. However, what if that wasn't always the case? What if the Urdunnir were in actuality closer to the 'dwarven truth'? That they are really the purest of dwarves, and without females, and 'born of the stone'.

But, over countless millennia, dwarves had abandoned 'the old ways' (and their connections to the giants), and have crossbred with other humanoids, so that they CAN have female now. In fact, I think THAT is what happened to the bearded dwarven women - the 'purer the stock', the closer to the original (all-male) form the dwarf is. Since nearly all (AFAIK) 'modern dwarves' have females, and most have beardless females, that just shows you how diluted dwarven blood has become.

To take this theory a step further, perhaps this is why dwarves had such low birth rates - its unnatural. As in the book of SECRETS, occasionally dwarves would uncover a dwarf-shaped rock in their diggings, and they would take it someplace special (some sort of 'creche') and there it would slowly transform into a new dwarf. Because they've now taken to 'breeding' like the lesser races, new (stone) dwarves are rarely ever found (or perhaps, they aren't found since the Sundering). Because Dwarven culture has taken a turn away from the crossbreeding - finding it 'unwholesome' - they inadvertently removed the crucial catalyst they needed to breed sexually. Then comes the 'Thunder Blessing' as of 3e, and the Mordinsamman infuse 'life' (ie, 'Mana', which helps us explain Dwarf Mages as well) into their race, so that they would no longer rely on the occasional influx of non-dwarven DNA in order to breed naturally (or unnaturally, in their case).

The dwarves were always missing that 'spark' that true (sexual) races have. Now they have it.

EDIT:
I also have some pretty cool (IMO lol) lore regarding giants and breeding, and their subtypes, but since that goes WAY outside of canon, I prefer to save all of that as 'stand alone' giant lore for another setting someday (hopefully my own, but you never know).




Now I have pictures of dozens of male and female derro being created from female Dhaerow (drow) by some nefarious cackling hill giant witch doctor, named Gurglsmehl, (and his dire red tiger Azriel) so that she can infiltrate the smur.... I mean dwarf village, but Papa Dwarf turns the female derro away from the evil path and she becomes a TRUE smur... I mean dwarf. They free the other derro and try to convert them, but some have just gone nutbars. Then they all sing this song that goes La, La Lalalalah, La, La, La, Lalah

And while I initially meant that entirely as a joke..... hmmmm..... could it be interesting if the derro and Ilythiiri (sp?) are related. Could the derro going underground be a weird part of Corellon's curse on drow? I know its a huge stretch given they look nothing alike and my only linking is some similarity in a racial epithet. Ah, give me 15 minutes, and I'll forget it.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 19 May 2017 12:49:30
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3245 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2017 :  12:57:11  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For me one of the racial origins of the derro is to do with the spawn wars. You clone something enough times and it starts to degenerate.

Although i like multiple origin stories to be true and allow for geographic differences to sometimes mean a new group of creature were created by a different event. These different groups look vaguely similar but have different abilities, cultures, etc its just that humans are too lazy and judgemental to bother noticing the differences and so lump everything together into a single creature category (i have two species of sharn, several svirfnebling species and many many hobgoblin species - created by breeding goblins with different creatures).

I think the limitations of the rules we have had through the past 5 editions have led to racial monsters with very uniform abilities (all hobgoblins get the same ability as fo all sharn), i much prefer to be able to pick from a variety of abilities for my monsters.

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Edited by - dazzlerdal on 19 May 2017 13:07:30
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

213 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2017 :  17:29:46  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

For me one of the racial origins of the derro is to do with the spawn wars. You clone something enough times and it starts to degenerate.



Nice. I think this is an excellent twist on the Derro.

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3245 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2017 :  17:38:37  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well it has some backing. The derro gods were worshipped in early shanatar so that says they were once dwarven gods. Something happened during shanatar to chamge the pantheon

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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1377 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2017 :  21:07:33  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well it has some backing. The derro gods were worshipped in early shanatar so that says they were once dwarven gods. Something happened during shanatar to chamge the pantheon

Wasn't the dwarven pantheon as it's known formed as a result of alliance between tribes using henotheism?
If the relevant clans split before the pantheon solidified completely, this could be reflected in their deities not making it to the final version of the pantheon. Same deal with the Clan Duergar.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3245 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2017 :  21:58:05  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I cant pretend to know what henotheism is. I try my best not to let real world religion impact any thoughts on the realms because the two are so different.

However if i remember it right then the various kingdoms of shanatar were each established and dedicated to individual patron deities of the pantheon.
One of those kingdoms was dedicated to the derro deities. Another was dedicated to laduguer (the duergar deity).

Now we know the duergar were once dwarves and were corrupted into their present form. So either they took their god with them in the corruption and exile (and the worship of laduguer was likewise corrupted into evil to match their change in ideology). Or rather more unlikely the dwarves were in the habit of worshipping evil alien deities.

A similar situation with the derro must have occurred. Which means the dwarves once had gods of magic and then exiled their worship and worshippers for some reason (giving an in game explanation for the lack of dwarven wizards if such practices were viewed as culturally wrong because of historical events).

Im leaning towards the kingdom of the derro deities were very magically inclined and created the deepspawn and possibly sacrificed a large portion of their members to the monster. The continual spawning and interbreeding resulted in the derro and the outcast of several clans and the worship of the derro deities.


While this event occured in shanatar it was far enough in the past that links between shanatar and the great rift meant that word of the exile was passed between the only two known dwarven empires such that exile in one became exile in all dwarven lands.

But thats just how i think of it at the moment.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13385 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2017 :  16:59:59  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To me the Derro and Duergar are like Orogs and Ogrillon (back in 1e/2e) - I don't get why we needed both.

The truth is a meta-game thing: They were created in various products by different designers/authors, and when TSR started consolidating all that material into MM's and other sources we wound up with tons of redundancy.

I like what someone (Tom Costa?) did with the Ogrillon/Orog thing, but I think RAS stomped all over that in his novels (I think one is a half-fiend now? I forget), Still, I love the concept that when two different species mate, you could wind-up with two very different things, depending upon which the mother was. That makes a lot of sense, IMO.

As for the dwarves, I thought the illithids were directly responsible for the Derro, and in FR, it was the Deepspawn in Shanatar that created the 'degenerated' dwarves - Duergar. I thought all that was established canon.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 May 2017 17:04:37
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3245 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2017 :  17:09:07  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Other way around. Illithids enslaved clan duergar and made them into a separate race.

Derro i dont know if its canon that they are degenerated deepspawned dwarves but id like it if they were.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 23 May 2017 :  19:09:38  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
More with the thread topic -

I am thinking about creating another, wholly non-canon timeline for the D&Dverse, from scratch, rather than trying to build a wonky broken one from all the different edition lore. Then, instead of building the timeline from all those stray and disparate bits, I can take the major events and place them on a more logical timeline, and just say 'history got it wrong'. I think it would be MUCH easier then to keep trying to fudge everything.

In other words, I'm going to reset FR the way i think it should have been done, rather than the way it was done. Its too much of a struggle to keep trying to make verything work - too many inconsistencies and contradictions (my thoughts right now have to do with the giant/Dragon wars - we have a bunch of lore that seems to imply they happened fairly recently (like AFTER the Crown Wars), other lore saying it happened previous to the Crown Wars... which makes more sense, but then we are bumping into the whole 'Sundering' thing. My thoughts are the giant and dragon empires had to have preexisted the separation of Abeir and Toril, and that the dragons 'won' (for the most part), and their empires lingered on into recorded history (recorded by the elves and dwarves). Or perhaps some of it happened before, and some after - that the Dragon/Giants war (The Behemoth Wars?) may have actually spanned the Sundering. But then I'm back to my theory that there were two different Ostorias.

Either that, or all of Elven history must be moved forward in the time-line. That might actually work better... hmmmmm...

EDIT:
Which is the best source for the 4e 'history of the world/cosmos'? The stuff concerning the Dawn War and what-not?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 May 2017 19:12:21
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3245 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2017 :  19:25:02  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The only error i ever found was the obviously erroneous date of -2550 DR for the death of ulutiu.

If you move that date to -25500 DR then it all fits as far as i can see.

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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1008 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2017 :  20:10:57  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"Legend has it that the derro originally lived on the surface of Faerūn.[4] They opened portals to the Far Realm which offended the World Serpent who cast the derro into the Underdark.[5]"

This was from the FR novel Venom in her Veins, so it appears in FR the Derro where not created by the Illithids, but rather by a combination of Far Realms exposed and the World Serpent ceiling them into the underdark.
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3245 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2017 :  22:03:57  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That will be a 4e novel then. How would it even come up in an adventure that one discovers the origin of a species created by possibly the first divine being. Im guessing they asked and the world serpent answered.



At least the duergar and drow creation are a historical event that one could discover by reading ancient histories (if you can find them, probably while exploring ancient shanatar for the duergar one). But a god picking up all the derro and imprisoning them underground.


I think ill stick with my original idea of degenerate dwarves. Again it has a historical event that one can discover.

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