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 Request: Founding date/details of Arcorar
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Ffaelfarrin
Acolyte

Germany
4 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2009 :  21:17:46  Show Profile  Visit Ffaelfarrin's Homepage  Send Ffaelfarrin an ICQ Message Send Ffaelfarrin a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Well met, scribes and scholars.

First off, I've been using these chambers of concentrated knowledge for several years now and I allways got an answer to my questions. There simply wans't a need to bother any of you busy scribes with my pesky questions ;)

I recently moved to a new city, which meant also a new gaming group. Luckily i found one - and its even better that the one I've been used to play in.
So, this means some in-depth work for me to create a dense background for my character.

I'm sticking with the same kind of character since more than 4 years now and though I had a decent grasp of history since I began. But not so.

Now to the matter at hand:
As i was delving into the "more detailed" history of the crown wars to create a line of heritage for my elf, i stumbled upon Arcorar.
The entry on page 16/GHotR [released book] say, that some elves from Ilodhar travel to Arcorar, but nowhere before that Realm of Arcorar was mentioned - when it was founded, by whom it was founded.
The only clue I got (not even sure if that is right) is that Arcorar should cover Cormanthor (the forest) and some lands beyond the forest's borders.

Perhaps you, honoured sages, can give me some advice in which tome I have to put my eyes into or even gimme some hint with a quick quotation. Many thanks in advance. :)

Until next we meet

- Ffaelfarrin Cirwaithreier, Bladesinger, born in the Year of the Guardian (1105)

Edited by - Ffaelfarrin on 30 Jan 2009 21:44:39

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5640 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  06:06:22  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Arcorar (or 'the Great King Forest' in the tongue of non-elves) was a region, never a realm. See the "Cormanthyr" sourcebook, pgs.24-25. Various elven realms/domains like Jhyrennstar, Elven Court and Uvaeren were founded within Arcorar.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3069 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  07:16:04  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Thanks for the clearing that up. I thought the same thing too.

BRIMSTONE

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep

Edited by - Brimstone on 02 Feb 2009 07:16:48
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Ffaelfarrin
Acolyte

Germany
4 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  09:17:04  Show Profile  Visit Ffaelfarrin's Homepage  Send Ffaelfarrin an ICQ Message Send Ffaelfarrin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for your reply, honoured sage :)
This clears the mist most considerably.

Though, I am ashamed that I didn't look in *this* tome myself before asking my question.

- Ffaelfarrin Cirwaithreier, Bladesinger, born in the Year of the Guardian (1105)
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
583 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2019 :  21:54:00  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would like to resurrect this topic as it seems to me it is incorrect.
I do not invalidate canon information and that is exactly as George said - it was a region not a realm before Elven Court.

However lets look at data:
-there is a large forest area outside of main stage of Crown Wars and "known" realms of elves.
-nobody "knows about it until Seldarine point it out.
-Ilithiri clan Sethomir was instructed to settle nearby Great Dale forest so it must have been known about.
-there were drow directly under it before -4400 DR so they could perform Dark Court Slaughter.
-after moving there they found green elves already living in the area.
-Scar rift is said to be a reminder of Corellion fight with Grumsh and is in the middle of original forest.

It seems to me that East was somehow "forgotten" by elves only to be "reminded" later by Seldarine who clearly known about it.
My idea is that there was a green elven kingdom that was destroyed by Seldarine before Crown Wars. This was a result of Corellion battling Grumash for supremancy even before Araushnee betrayed him (Scar is location of it's former capitol).
I have long pondered as to what happened to those green elves and than it struck me - goblins. They are everywhere in this area, hate sun and look suspiciously like deformed elves...
Lets say that most of the Grumash's loyal green elves were transformed by curse (similar to drow later on) to goblins and forced to abandon their home. Only few nonaligned remained living in the forest only to be subdued by gold elves later on as they were directed to settle this forest after Crown Wars.
To finish my idea Grumash left his people (goblins) as they were weak and not the force he fought for. He pondered lower planes for decades until he found orcs - a race of fighters worthy of him. He defeated their main god Orcus and cast him to Abyss. He than took Luthic as a wife and sired Baghtru to strenghten his position. He also created green (mountain) orcs to his image and released them to the world (Gray orcs are more sane reminder of Orcus's reign so they are pushed to shadows more and more).

I would like to add a thanks for inspiration regarding Grumash as elven deity from fellow scribes in older topics as this is not my idea.

Edited by - Wrigley on 16 Nov 2019 21:57:38
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5640 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2019 :  02:07:33  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The moon and gold elves knew it was there but they had settled the forests of the North and the Sword Coast and didn't need to do anything about the place.

What the Seldarine created there was Elven Court and left the elves know that this holy place had been created and where it was.

The forest of Lethyr is a long way away from the forest of Cormanthor. No reason for the Ilythiiri to go there.

If you want goblins in your Realms to be deformed green elves, go for it. You haven't explained why the Seldarine would want to destroy your green elven kingdom though.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
583 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2019 :  19:29:09  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

The moon and gold elves knew it was there but they had settled the forests of the North and the Sword Coast and didn't need to do anything about the place.

What the Seldarine created there was Elven Court and left the elves know that this holy place had been created and where it was.

The forest of Lethyr is a long way away from the forest of Cormanthor. No reason for the Ilythiiri to go there.

If you want goblins in your Realms to be deformed green elves, go for it. You haven't explained why the Seldarine would want to destroy your green elven kingdom though.

-- George Krashos


So you have Rystars all around the Faerun and you just ignore one of the largest forest around?
Seldarine to my knowledge did not create Elven Court - it was built on the place that elves were called to by them. Do you have any canon source for that?
Forest of Lethyr - right - it is closest source of drow for this area and they were banished below ground as all other drow. You could have a few surivors from Miyeritar and all other are way down South.
Where do you think they came from? Mezzoberanzan?

For goblins - it make sense to me and provide a great space for stories... Seldarine wanted to do the same as to Lloth - defeat competition. This means mainly Corellion fighting for supremancy with backing of other lesser elven gods.
Araushnee was trying to usurp Corellions position of leader of Seldarine and for that she was cast down. The same could have happened before with Grumash and his green elves. Both dark and green elves were there before them so they had right to it and they were also strong as a race. Somehow now green elves - known for their warrior prowess are no more than a shadow of what they could be...
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5640 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2019 :  14:38:09  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
So you have Rystars all around the Faerun and you just ignore one of the largest forest around?
Seldarine to my knowledge did not create Elven Court - it was built on the place that elves were called to by them. Do you have any canon source for that?



I suggest you read "Cormanthyr", p.22: the section titled "The Last Crown War or Aryvandaar's Fall".

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Forest of Lethyr - right - it is closest source of drow for this area and they were banished below ground as all other drow. You could have a few surivors from Miyeritar and all other are way down South.
Where do you think they came from? Mezzoberanzan?



Well as the guy who created the Forest of Lethyr, Narathmault, the Ilythiiri going there and them becoming drow there, I can tell you that they were not the source of the drow who participated in the Dark Court Slaughter.

The drow were created in -10000 DR. The Dark Court Slaughter occurred millennia later in -4400 DR. The great drow nation of Telantiwar fell in -7600 DR prompting a diaspora of drow to all points of the compass. Great drow cities such as Undraeth (beneath the mountains bordering Turmish) and Sshamath (established in -4793 DR) are more likely candidates for the drow who participated in the Dark Court Slaughter.

And who knows, there may even be a drow city beneath the Moonsea somewhere that is as yet undetailed. After all, the drow that brought ruin to Sulasspryn had to come from somewhere. Given that there are many as yet FR drow cities that have never been placed or details - such as several of the ones listed in "Drow of the Underdark", p.98 - the drow who were part of the Dark Court Slaughter could likely have come from somewhere as yet undetailed. And not from Menzoberranzan.

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
For goblins - it make sense to me and provide a great space for stories... Seldarine wanted to do the same as to Lloth - defeat competition. This means mainly Corellion fighting for supremancy with backing of other lesser elven gods.
Araushnee was trying to usurp Corellions position of leader of Seldarine and for that she was cast down. The same could have happened before with Grumash and his green elves. Both dark and green elves were there before them so they had right to it and they were also strong as a race. Somehow now green elves - known for their warrior prowess are no more than a shadow of what they could be...



Well, I'm not a fan of detailing things deific. Like I said, whatever works for you.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 18 Nov 2019 14:40:02
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
583 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2019 :  18:52:03  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First I would like to say that I am happy for your presence here at Candlekeep and your continuous willingness to spread the lore. I like to see any snippet you created or know about. However my path leads me to make sense of the Realms for my game and that can sometimes go against written lore and I try always to find out canon version first before creating something new - so even if I do not use it I still like to find a new lore.

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
So you have Rystars all around the Faerun and you just ignore one of the largest forest around?
Seldarine to my knowledge did not create Elven Court - it was built on the place that elves were called to by them. Do you have any canon source for that?



I suggest you read "Cormanthyr", p.22: the section titled "The Last Crown War or Aryvandaar's Fall".


If you meant it as a source for "Seldarine created Elven Court" than I have found opposite "This place, established in Corellon's name as a place of decision and judgment, became Elven Court."
If you meant it as a source for "elves moved east only after Crown Wars" than that seems to be the case.
"The elves entered a phase of colonization, spreading out to the other forests and unspoiled areas of Faerūn, including more permanent settlements around Elven Court. Arcorar (what will become the forest Cormanthor), Evereska, and Yuirwood are all believed to have been populated during this era."

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Well as the guy who created the Forest of Lethyr, Narathmault, the Ilythiiri going there and them becoming drow there, I can tell you that they were not the source of the drow who participated in the Dark Court Slaughter.

The drow were created in -10000 DR. The Dark Court Slaughter occurred millennia later in -4400 DR. The great drow nation of Telantiwar fell in -7600 DR prompting a diaspora of drow to all points of the compass. Great drow cities such as Undraeth (beneath the mountains bordering Turmish) and Sshamath (established in -4793 DR) are more likely candidates for the drow who participated in the Dark Court Slaughter.

And who knows, there may even be a drow city beneath the Moonsea somewhere that is as yet undetailed. After all, the drow that brought ruin to Sulasspryn had to come from somewhere. Given that there are many as yet FR drow cities that have never been placed or details - such as several of the ones listed in "Drow of the Underdark", p.98 - the drow who were part of the Dark Court Slaughter could likely have come from somewhere as yet undetailed. And not from Menzoberranzan.


Thank you for clearing canon POV. Is there a reason it was not taken into consideration?
For me it was logical from those reasons:
Dark Court Slaughter was a idea of Wendonai (LEoF p.54) and he was the one to send Ilithiri clan Sethomiir travel by magic to the Riildath (GHotR p.15). After the descent they are told to found a city of Undrek’Thoz (GHotR p.15 - under Thay) but that doesn't mean all of them went this direction (it is about the same distance - 500 miles - to Thay as to Cormanthor). In my musing the first drow settlement in the area was V'elrinsshar under Vaasa (that is about half that distance) just after descent (cca -9000 DR) and Maerimydra was settled only around -4000 DR after Shevarash killed high priestess of V'eldrinsshar. For me it is much more logical that drow already in the location spreaded than basing it on Telantiwar on the other side of continent. It is actually only 4x further and with the time frame in question distance is not a limit however I consider the timeframe to be stretched needlessly in those times so not much of a consideration either.
Sulasspryn drow are from house Mizzrym who came from Menzzoberanzan however I have not been able to find a source I read it from.

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
For goblins - it make sense to me and provide a great space for stories... Seldarine wanted to do the same as to Lloth - defeat competition. This means mainly Corellion fighting for supremancy with backing of other lesser elven gods.
Araushnee was trying to usurp Corellions position of leader of Seldarine and for that she was cast down. The same could have happened before with Grumash and his green elves. Both dark and green elves were there before them so they had right to it and they were also strong as a race. Somehow now green elves - known for their warrior prowess are no more than a shadow of what they could be...



Well, I'm not a fan of detailing things deific. Like I said, whatever works for you.

-- George Krashos


For me this is mainly story about green elves and goblins. The perspective of deific mythos is a way to explain it in the same way as descent of the drow in the Realms.
Right now I am trying to detail pre-crown wars history of Arcorar and that is why I ressurected this scroll as the topic is already here.
Do you know what caused Scar rift? Legend say it was a sword of Corellion but that would be a diefic thing (also I cannot imagine size of those avatars if they should make this during combat)...
My best idea is that the location was a former capitol of green elven realm stuck by some magic of Corellion during this event. In ancient times this place was a natural harbor in middle of Arcorar so it make sense for the large city.

Edited by - Wrigley on 18 Nov 2019 18:59:30
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