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cpthero2
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Posted - 08 Jan 2021 :  22:35:12  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hello Fellow Sages and Scribes,

I'm reaching out to see if others have further insight into the deities of Netheril. I'm aware of course of the (10) primary deities found within the Netheril: Empire of Magic boxed set; however, after rereading Sword Play again in the last few days, there are mentions of deities that don't appear to have any indication or acknowledgement of existing in the expansion or other game play material. Chauntea is one mentioned (which I understand is likely an aspect of Jannath) but the author specifically referred to Chauntea, even though Jannath is the nature/agriculture deity in Netheril. Another deity mentioned was I believe Talos (I can't seem to recall exactly though), but again, it was by name.

Does anyone know if there is more to the Netherese pantheon that stated in the boxed set, and if so, if it is elsewhere than the novels to corroborate it?

Best regards,





EDIT: Replacing Malar as the second deity with Talos.

Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring

Edited by - cpthero2 on 08 Jan 2021 22:36:33

sleyvas
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Posted - 09 Jan 2021 :  00:25:46  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If it said those names, and whatever you were reading was prior to Karsus' Folly, then quite possibly some of the "Netherese" deities may have changed prior to the fall of Netheril (i.e. because Talos was Kozah, Chauntea was Jannath). The only deity we can say with certainty that changed at Karsus' Folly was Mystryl to Mystra. We don't even know with certainty when Jergal handed his power to the dark three either, when Amaunator became Lathander, when Targus became Tempus, when Tyche split, etc... The only thing we can say with certainty to a degree is the Selune, Shar, and Moander are probably the same deities.

This all being said, I'm kind of fond of neretical notions like "the goddesses Bhalla and Khelliara in the Rashemi pantheon aren't actually Chauntea and Mielikki, but Faerunians say that because they don't want to fathom there being other gods".

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
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Posted - 09 Jan 2021 :  02:54:52  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Let's not beat about the bush. In terms of lore, those references are just totally in error and show that the author and his editor had no clue. The Netherese pantheon and the names of the deities are as set out in the Netheril boxed set. You can add to the pantheon and I would expect that they had all sorts of weird and wonderful cults (and there is a reference to the Netherese Uthgardt precursors worshipping what we now know as the Beast Totems), but I'm not using Chauntea, Malar or Talos.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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cpthero2
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Posted - 09 Jan 2021 :  04:31:03  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader sleyvas and Master Krashos,

A Happy New Year to you good gentlemen!

Well, I sort of figured it was that Mr. Emery was just not on his game with lore, but I figured I'd double check. It was honestly shocking as hell to come across that in the novel with those mentions, so specifically.

To be honest though, there were some other issues that came about that were unusual:

  • A direct and seemingly knowledgeable reference to Kara-Tur
  • Use of the Calendar of Harptos


The Netheril boxed set already shows the kinds of hands off outlook that the Netherese have towards places such as the Old Empires, let alone some of the more western reaches of Kara-Tur such as the Katakoro Plain, which was the eastern reaches of the Imaskari empire. It just seems that the Netherese wouldn't have known of Kara-Tur and thus that mention was... unusual.

The Calendar of Harptos is of course quite old and originates from a long-dead wizard from Kaalinth (and nothing more is known about that). The Imaskari are about as old as it gets for humans of power and influence. It almost seems like a subtle hint that said long-dead wizard is Imaskari. Anyone have anything more on that?

Best regards,







Higher Atlar
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 09 Jan 2021 :  12:15:17  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm with George

Chauntea is not Jannath, Talos is not Kozah. THey were separate theological entities during Netheril's time and the Netherese diaspora later caused a merging of various pantheons which led to Chauntea's church absorbing Jannath's followers and Talos absorbing the followers of Bhaelros and Kozah, etc.


When i did some research on Netheril i decided the Netherese worshipped Selune, and a cult of shadows (not solidified worship into a being named shar but worship of a nameless primal shadowy creature of power)

Later they acquired Targus from the Rengarth who worshipped ancestors and animal totems (one of which was a many armed giant that was roughly pronounced as Targg).

As the cult of shadow grew in power, there appeared worship of the opposite, a sun god named Amaunator after a prophet that was publicly tortured and murdered by the cult of shadow.

Jergal was an insidious form of worship that fed early cults in the first age and disappeared for a time but remerged as a god of death in the later and more decadent ages of Netheril.

Kozah was a foreign cult created by outside powers (sarrukh) wishing to bring down Netheril using its own people, found initially by those exploring the Spiderhaunt Woods (which were not as spider infested then and filled with ancient sarrukh ruins).

Jannath was something borrowed from the people of Thaeravel (not the city itself but the talfir that lived in the countryside around it).

I imagined half a hundred animal totems for various rengarth and angarth tribes but they remained largely within the tribal groups and were not widely spread among the low netherese


That way as Netheril expanded it gathered together numerous powers absorbing them into its own and enriching its culture. Which is the only way large nations can survive realistically for any amount of time.


All my own stuff however, interpreted from existing canon so take or leave what you wish.

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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 09 Jan 2021 :  14:54:47  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader sleyvas and Master Krashos,

A Happy New Year to you good gentlemen!

Well, I sort of figured it was that Mr. Emery was just not on his game with lore, but I figured I'd double check. It was honestly shocking as hell to come across that in the novel with those mentions, so specifically.

To be honest though, there were some other issues that came about that were unusual:

  • A direct and seemingly knowledgeable reference to Kara-Tur
  • Use of the Calendar of Harptos


The Netheril boxed set already shows the kinds of hands off outlook that the Netherese have towards places such as the Old Empires, let alone some of the more western reaches of Kara-Tur such as the Katakoro Plain, which was the eastern reaches of the Imaskari empire. It just seems that the Netherese wouldn't have known of Kara-Tur and thus that mention was... unusual.

The Calendar of Harptos is of course quite old and originates from a long-dead wizard from Kaalinth (and nothing more is known about that). The Imaskari are about as old as it gets for humans of power and influence. It almost seems like a subtle hint that said long-dead wizard is Imaskari. Anyone have anything more on that?

Best regards,




I don't believe that the Netherese didn't know about Imaskar or Kara-Tur. They were spelljamming. They had flying enclaves that could take them anywhere. I fully believe that the Netherese were spread all around the world. I wouldn't be surprised to find a Netherese enclave fallen down on another continent.

One thing I like to think is that the Netherese had been studying many far flung areas, and that's why they knew they could relocate to Halruaa to reform their society with relative safety (given its mountainous borders). We know that Larloch was watching Narfell as well, since Jiksidur crashed there. But that bit of lore didn't come out until like ten years or so later. Basically, the original writer wrote up the Netheril boxed set trying to make a framework on a world that he had little solid information for (as in he had modern info, but little hard fact historical with dates), and so rather than stepping on other toes, he stayed in his little sandbox area. Its real easy to knock the guy afterward, and I know there's a lot of mess ups in the Netheril boxed set, but I'll give him respect for the breadth of what he was trying to do.

As to references to different gods, I believe we have numerous speculation, but no canon answers for when all the other gods changed. For instance, I know some folks have questioned the Targus/Tempus/Garagos thing as being related to the name change there, but I don't believe its ever been canonically stated as to the answer. It may very well be that the Netherese deities were literally killed off due to lack of worshippers (even though the rules technically didn't change till the ToT) and other deities usurped their positions. It may be that they changed out in the few hundred years prior or after the fall of Netheril. Why didn't the author clarify this? He was doing a lot of stuff, and he left it open for development later. So, its just not documented, and now people fight over when the dawn cataclysm occurred. The one thing I don't see happening unless it was literally some "time thing where they all got overwritten" would be that when Mystryl died, so did half the pantheon at the exact same time. That would be a big coincidence. Not saying they won't write it that way though.


Also, one thing to bear in mind with all these about earlier ages is "when did we get official dates". There's a lot of things where we look back now and assume that things were published (for instance I've seen people questioning "why didn't the Netherese involve themselves with Jhaamdath", and my answer is that Jhaamdath wasn't even a thought until 3rd edition). I'm not exactly sure how much knowledge we had on ancient Imaskar at the time of the writing of the Netheril boxed set (and by that I mean writing, not publishing, because I expect he/they probably spent a year writing that). I know Old Empires gave us some dates for the fall of Imaskar maybe (or maybe it was Powers and pantheons... not sure), but I'm not sure we had much prior to that.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 09 Jan 2021 15:06:50
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 09 Jan 2021 :  15:43:09  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

But that bit of lore didn't come out until like ten years or so later. Basically, the original writer wrote up the Netheril boxed set trying to make a framework on a world that he had little solid information for (as in he had modern info, but little hard fact historical with dates), and so rather than stepping on other toes, he stayed in his little sandbox area. Its real easy to knock the guy afterward, and I know there's a lot of mess ups in the Netheril boxed set, but I'll give him respect for the breadth of what he was trying to do.


I am not so generous, here. He had access to all of the info he needed: Ed. The fact that Ed's info was not used was deliberate. I don't know if it was the designer or an editor that did it, but at some level, someone deliberately said "No, we won't go with what the designer of the setting intended, we'll do our own thing."

I also find fault with the idea that 50-plus wizards all lopped off convenient mountain peaks (oddly, without leaving a lot of plateaus behind), flipped them over, put cities on them, tossed them into the air -- and then stayed in the same area. Yes, we know that some Netherese enclaves ranged further afield, but it's a very small number. All the rest, with the option of going literally anywhere, stayed in the same general vicinity, for no readily apparent reason.

I've mentioned this before, and it's been suggested they had to stay there to be near their food source, but I reject this argument. They had the magic to literally move a mountain -- clearing out some farmland somewhere else would be trivial, by comparison. Farming on or within the flying enclave would also be an option -- tweak gravity on the sides, or hollow it out and create some light, and boom, you're taking your farms with you. Or simply build a portal to where your farms are, and bring food through there. There's too many options to justify staying there -- especially since making the city fly, even if it didn't go anywhere, still dramatically changes the logistics of getting food into the city.

It's also odd that the phaerimm, being some seriously powerful casters themselves, didn't simply go elsewhere. Oh, the Netherese use of magic was somehow killing them? Yeah, throwing magic at the Netherese, and causing them to throw more magic in response -- yeah, that's the perfect solution! We'll solve the problem by making it worse!

Off the top of my head, the only way to fix both those issues is to say that there was something like the Athora there. This theoretical object would have strengthened the magic for the Netherese and the phaerimm both, and that would explain why both were loathe to leave the area.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 09 Jan 2021 15:45:23
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 09 Jan 2021 :  16:34:25  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm fine with why Netheril stayed why it is

If you tried to grow your own food on an enclave, you would quickly deplete the soil and your growing yields would decrease annually until you could not support the population.

Magic is expensive. Despite what D&D rules say, magic as it is unbalances the economy so its clearly not truly representative of how it works in the realms otherwise every mage would be rich beyond his wildest dreams and throwing magic around for everyday activities, but there are numerous instances of mages being commissioned for works (with payment) and it was only in Netheril where even commoners could cast spells and that was attributed to the mythallars.

We arent entirely certain how a mythallar works but my personal theory is that it is a mini weave within the weave that can be configured how the creator desires. It takes magic from the weave and alters it to suit the needs of the mythallar. If the netherese put hundreds of these mythallars around the landscape (which they did to control the climate and defend land based cities) and then millions of people used them for all kinds of everyday magic then that would start to drain the weave in that area.
THe phaerimm response was to drain the area of magic and life completely (Ed has stated that magic and life are interlinked on TOril) and so may have accelerated what the Netherese were doing, turning their own hubris against them. Yes it may have hurt the phaerimm in netheril as well but there is evidence that the phaerimm had an extradimensional space they could retreat to.


And lastly there comes the problems of magicking food to a flying enclave. Teleporting is complicated (thats why it has a margin of error with catastrophic results if failed). The D&D rules make spellcasting very binary, if you cast a spell it succeeds or fails, but real magic would be varying degrees of success so teleporting food to another place could end up like a transporter accident on startrek.

Thus far, all documented instances of teleportation have been to static locations, imagine trying to teleport onto a moving enclave.


Then there are gates / portals. Again all instances i can think of for these involve static locations. I would imagine creating a gate / portal on a moving enclave to be incredibly tricky. THere is mention of a guild that did this but i reckon you had to be stationary and directly above a gate / portal on the ground for it to work.




Rather than decrying all the things stated about Netheril because they dont fit your view of Netheril, try altering your view of Netheril and how you think magic works in order to make the facts fit. We know Netheril didnt expand very far beyond its borders (except for solitary, almost secretive excursions to far flung and isolated lands, almost like they were scouting or stealing something), logistics, provisions, and magic must all have played a part in this limitation.

I reckon it is quite difficult to provision an entire artificial city (although i personally do not have more than 10 flying city sized enclaves in Netheril as Ed has stated, the rest are just towers or buildings with extradimensional spaces attached). Flying speed for these creations may not have been incredibly fast, so moving to the Savage Frontier or Narfell could have taken months.
An army of 10000 could use up 30 tons of food and 30000 gallons of water daily, thats a lot to forage for a flying city as you go. Much of the lands around Netheril were wilderness or owned by hostile foreign powers with magic enough to combat a single enclave (Cormanthor, Jhaamdath, Imaskar, Unther, Mulhorand).
Netheril enclaves had to stay by its land bound cities where people toiled daily to produce food which was then sold to the rich. Its the basis of most economies and is how Netheril would have survived. THe enclaves house the elite who buy the goods of low netheril and in return they provide a measure of protection and prestige to the commoners due to their presence.
If an enclave moves too far away (especially the larger ones) then rationing will soon become a reality and then the archmage would become unpopular and then he would likely be killed. Enclaves were mini kingdoms and when the king is unnpopular he ends up dead (no matter how powerful he is).



I do have a theory to explain how the idea of city sized enclaves everywhere came about. Initially the greatest archmages created city sized enclaves. Those that came later copied the likes of Ioulaum but were lesser in skill and so their enclaves were smaller, but over time, successive owners (lesser archmages died and were replaced) added extradimensional additions to the enclaves so that although these towers and torrs appeared small on the outside they could hold many hundreds of individuals in relative comfort.
Just a theory, but then everything on Netheril is.


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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 09 Jan 2021 :  17:00:21  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is published canon that there were 54 flying cities.

And teleporting to a moving target is not an issue. Mages can teleport to ships at sea. Besides, even if it was an issue, park the enclave long enough to do the teleport. Or -- as I already said -- build a portal.

All of the issues you site with magical transportation of food exist the second the enclave takes to the sky. Once it's no longer on the ground, you can't simply roll wagonloads of food through the city gates. Yet they obviously solved these issues for a smaller geographical area -- so why couldn't these methods be scaled up for larger distances?

Besides which, the fact that some enclaves did leave proves solutions were found. Again, this is published canon.

So, no, this is not "decrying all the things stated about Netheril because they dont fit your view of Netheril" -- this is using published canon and logic to show that there was no reason for all the cities to stay there. There were ways to magically transport food to flying cities that were clearly in use, regardless of whether the city stayed in Netheril proper or went elsewhere on the planet -- or even into orbit!

And I will not "try altering <my> view of Netheril and how <I> think magic works in order to make the facts fit" when the facts show that it was possible for cities to leave. A handful did leave, and this is published canon, so there's no reason more couldn't have left.

You're the one trying to alter published canon. I'm just pointing out that published canon does show what was possible, and then fails to address why the existing possibilities weren't utilized.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 09 Jan 2021 17:01:45
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 09 Jan 2021 :  17:08:08  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

But that bit of lore didn't come out until like ten years or so later. Basically, the original writer wrote up the Netheril boxed set trying to make a framework on a world that he had little solid information for (as in he had modern info, but little hard fact historical with dates), and so rather than stepping on other toes, he stayed in his little sandbox area. Its real easy to knock the guy afterward, and I know there's a lot of mess ups in the Netheril boxed set, but I'll give him respect for the breadth of what he was trying to do.


I am not so generous, here. He had access to all of the info he needed: Ed. The fact that Ed's info was not used was deliberate. I don't know if it was the designer or an editor that did it, but at some level, someone deliberately said "No, we won't go with what the designer of the setting intended, we'll do our own thing."

I also find fault with the idea that 50-plus wizards all lopped off convenient mountain peaks (oddly, without leaving a lot of plateaus behind), flipped them over, put cities on them, tossed them into the air -- and then stayed in the same area. Yes, we know that some Netherese enclaves ranged further afield, but it's a very small number. All the rest, with the option of going literally anywhere, stayed in the same general vicinity, for no readily apparent reason.

I've mentioned this before, and it's been suggested they had to stay there to be near their food source, but I reject this argument. They had the magic to literally move a mountain -- clearing out some farmland somewhere else would be trivial, by comparison. Farming on or within the flying enclave would also be an option -- tweak gravity on the sides, or hollow it out and create some light, and boom, you're taking your farms with you. Or simply build a portal to where your farms are, and bring food through there. There's too many options to justify staying there -- especially since making the city fly, even if it didn't go anywhere, still dramatically changes the logistics of getting food into the city.

It's also odd that the phaerimm, being some seriously powerful casters themselves, didn't simply go elsewhere. Oh, the Netherese use of magic was somehow killing them? Yeah, throwing magic at the Netherese, and causing them to throw more magic in response -- yeah, that's the perfect solution! We'll solve the problem by making it worse!

Off the top of my head, the only way to fix both those issues is to say that there was something like the Athora there. This theoretical object would have strengthened the magic for the Netherese and the phaerimm both, and that would explain why both were loathe to leave the area.



Sounds like we're saying a lot of the same stuff (i.e. there's probably a lot of enclaves that went elsewhere, etc...). I'm just saying that he didn't detail them because he stayed on point (i.e. his job wasn't to detail the entire world during that era, and by staying to one general area, he didn't expand his own personal influence beyond that territory).

On the part about not forgiving him because he had Ed available.... I don't personally know what was happening at that company. I've worked places where you can ask someone for help and they tell you they'll help you, but they always some other poker in the fire. Ed's one man. Just how available was he to answer their questions? How many things came back with non-committal answers? I'm not saying the man was left out to dry, but I'm also not going to leave him out to dry either. He developed a LOT of lore for a single product. So, I'm not upset with him. If you are, well, that's your prerogative. Lord knows I've gotten pissed at people for things that other folks don't see a problem with.

On the lack of sheared off mountaintops... I'm not sure how big all these enclaves were. The definition of a "mountain top" can be kind of ambiguous, and I can picture some of these being something like a mile in diameter. That's still damn huge (big enough to hold a castle and a decent sized village if they have multi-story buildings), and it wouldn't really comprise a large amount of a mountaintop. So, again, I err on the side of caution and assume that some things are overblown.

Now, the idea that there may be something akin to the athora in that area to keep people there... that's an idea worth pursuing, and perhaps there was some secret to chardalyn that we don't know.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 09 Jan 2021 :  17:31:24  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
54 cities, does it say all cities are situated on mountain tops, does it mention the population threshold that Netheril used to categorise something as a city.

Facts are always open to interpretation, and generalisations will be made (especially in lower quality sourcebooks) that are proved to be false in later sourcebooks.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 09 Jan 2021 :  18:10:09  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison


I do have a theory to explain how the idea of city sized enclaves everywhere came about. Initially the greatest archmages created city sized enclaves. Those that came later copied the likes of Ioulaum but were lesser in skill and so their enclaves were smaller, but over time, successive owners (lesser archmages died and were replaced) added extradimensional additions to the enclaves so that although these towers and torrs appeared small on the outside they could hold many hundreds of individuals in relative comfort.
Just a theory, but then everything on Netheril is.




Gary,

I gotta say... I like THIS theory. It very much fits AND we can also make it work with the lore. Netheril didn't INITIALLY know about Imaskar (and vice versa). Imaskar had mastery of extradimensional spaces. I can see the archmages of Netheril learning of these concepts from the Imaskari and incorporating it. It also fits the concept I was throwing about that many enclaves might have been only like a mile wide or somesuch (still plenty big).

Along these lines, I also like the idea you presented of the Netherese enclaves moving slow as dirt (I had adopted this already with the enclave of Doubloon that I had also get fitted with an adapatation of a spelljammer forge that uses magical creation instead of smithing, but it can't get up to speeds to travel between planets, just up to the moon and tears), and one idea that comes in my head regarding extradimensional spaces involves dropping an extradimensional "opening" into the ocean. Granted, we can't drink salt water, but I'm sure a mythallar can desalinate water. I can picture Netherese enclaves periodically flying out to the ocean and then using hundreds of "bladders of holding" to restock their stores of water. Now, I'm going to get a little disgusting... but the center of the enclave may have held like a giant communal septic tank. I can picture Netherese enclaves maybe once every few months flying whereever they're planning to grow stuff in a year or two and dumping their sewage right onto the earth. They may have done a circuit with going to the ocean over a week, filling up with water taking a day, returning home over a week, then maybe a month or so later starting the process again.

Oh, and I agree on the idea that they might have problems establishing portals and doing magical transportation. The big thing I have always said with Netheril is that YES they were powerful FOR THEIR TIME. They didn't understand all the nuances of magic and were still developing things like the lightning bolt spell, etc... While some modern day mages may have "cracked that nut", and there is some canon references that can show that that nut isn't exactly cracked as well, the mages back then may have still been limited.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 09 Jan 2021 18:14:29
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 09 Jan 2021 :  18:31:41  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Glad it helps.

I figure they were slow moving mostly because of the wind shear. You try flying a city at 50mph and all your buildings will fall off and your people as well. Otherwise you have to build yet another mythallar to try and put a force bubble around the enclave so it's just cheaper to fly slowly (plus the force needed to propel an enclave at such speeds would be an enormous magic drain).


One thing to mention. The Netherese did have a weave anchor like the Athora of Thay (so did Imaskar if you follow George's work). Its called the Nether Scrolls, they were portable weave anchors made to spread the influence and are of the weave (they aren't weave anchors now, they were cut off as part of the fall of netheril, that's why magic ceased functioning properly for several months - at least that's how Ed explained it to me some time ago when I asked him).

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cpthero2
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Posted - 11 Jan 2021 :  02:15:55  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader sleyvas,

quote:
I don't believe that the Netherese didn't know about Imaskar or Kara-Tur. They were spelljamming. They had flying enclaves that could take them anywhere. I fully believe that the Netherese were spread all around the world. I wouldn't be surprised to find a Netherese enclave fallen down on another continent.


Oh, they knew about them, they specifically didn't go east though, as found on page 8 of the Netheril: Empire of Magic boxed set, where it was written that:

quote:
Outposts

Netheril’s archwizards began to feel a bit cramped. As more and more cities rose into the air, they feared their numbers would grow until their presence blotted out the sun. They felt expansion was in order. They expanded their sphere of divination to the east and to the west, but found the land to the west more to their liking. The east was home to nations that were rising in power, although not really following the magical paths set down by Netheril. A few archwizards, however, debated whether to subjugate the eastern nations under their rule. All plans to infiltrate the eastern cultures were laid to rest when the western lands, controlled loosely by barbaric tribesmen who were “sired by the consummation of the Earthmother (an aspect of Jannath) and a wolf,”
were deemed an easier target. The Terraseer, a mysterious oracle, was probably the main reason Netheril didn’t expand to the east.


I believe it had more to do with their desire to more easily, and fully, control everything directly around them. Also, the decadence and preoccupation with advancing themselves in power and longevity of life (as indicated in the novels) really didn't comport with them making efficacious advances. Their society just didn't seem to have the cohesion. Sort of like the Red Wizards of Thay.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 11 Jan 2021 :  02:49:12  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I figure they were slow moving mostly because of the wind shear. You try flying a city at 50mph and all your buildings will fall off and your people as well. Otherwise you have to build yet another mythallar to try and put a force bubble around the enclave so it's just cheaper to fly slowly (plus the force needed to propel an enclave at such speeds would be an enormous magic drain).




If you can lift a mountain up and permanently park it in the sky, moving it or protecting against wind would be trivial. The enclaves could clearly move with some speed; Doubloon's continued evasion of everyone looking for it proves that, and there are other references to enclaves moving for trading purposes and such -- as well as the ones that we know went further afield.

Windspeeds are generally higher at altitude, anyway, so even if they didn't move at all, they still would have had to counter higher winds than they would on the ground.

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Wooly Rupert
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I've been pondering the idea of either the Rock of Bral or Dragon Rock being a Netherese enclave. Not both -- I figure one was already there and the Netherese made the other. I know that Netheril was pretty much chased out of space, but it's possible it was a later effort, and/or an independent one by folks that downplayed or even denied a connection to Netheril.

Part of why I think this is because it's canon that both of these locations are in the Tears of Selūne -- but it seems unlikely that you'd have two similar trading centers in such a tight space. To me, this makes it more likely that one was a successful interloper.

I like the idea that one was an enclave taken into orbit, though it seems it would be easier to either utilize an existing Tear, or grab some random hunk of rock already in space and reposition it.

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George Krashos
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Posted - 11 Jan 2021 :  10:05:02  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One thing I like to think is that the Netherese had been studying many far flung areas, and that's why they knew they could relocate to Halruaa to reform their society with relative safety (given its mountainous borders). We know that Larloch was watching Narfell as well, since Jiksidur crashed there. But that bit of lore didn't come out until like ten years or so later. Basically, the original writer wrote up the Netheril boxed set trying to make a framework on a world that he had little solid information for (as in he had modern info, but little hard fact historical with dates), and so rather than stepping on other toes, he stayed in his little sandbox area. Its real easy to knock the guy afterward, and I know there's a lot of mess ups in the Netheril boxed set, but I'll give him respect for the breadth of what he was trying to do.



Steven Schend was operating in the exact same vacuum for "Cormanthyr". The two products simply don't compare.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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cpthero2
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Posted - 11 Jan 2021 :  19:20:59  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Krashos,

I'm agreeing with you there for sure. Cormanthyr was an exceptional accessory that demonstrates extrapolating information from other sources to make a profoundly good accessory.

The Netheril boxed set could have been done so much better.

Fortunately, playing in "modern" times (1300's) allows for adapting the ancient material as may be needed.

Best regards,





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sleyvas
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Posted - 11 Jan 2021 :  19:35:57  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader sleyvas,

quote:
I don't believe that the Netherese didn't know about Imaskar or Kara-Tur. They were spelljamming. They had flying enclaves that could take them anywhere. I fully believe that the Netherese were spread all around the world. I wouldn't be surprised to find a Netherese enclave fallen down on another continent.


Oh, they knew about them, they specifically didn't go east though, as found on page 8 of the Netheril: Empire of Magic boxed set, where it was written that:

quote:
Outposts

Netheril’s archwizards began to feel a bit cramped. As more and more cities rose into the air, they feared their numbers would grow until their presence blotted out the sun. They felt expansion was in order. They expanded their sphere of divination to the east and to the west, but found the land to the west more to their liking. The east was home to nations that were rising in power, although not really following the magical paths set down by Netheril. A few archwizards, however, debated whether to subjugate the eastern nations under their rule. All plans to infiltrate the eastern cultures were laid to rest when the western lands, controlled loosely by barbaric tribesmen who were “sired by the consummation of the Earthmother (an aspect of Jannath) and a wolf,”
were deemed an easier target. The Terraseer, a mysterious oracle, was probably the main reason Netheril didn’t expand to the east.


I believe it had more to do with their desire to more easily, and fully, control everything directly around them. Also, the decadence and preoccupation with advancing themselves in power and longevity of life (as indicated in the novels) really didn't comport with them making efficacious advances. Their society just didn't seem to have the cohesion. Sort of like the Red Wizards of Thay.

Best regards,



So, I read that as "they did go west, and they did study those cultures. Ultimately, the nation decided to focus eastward for expansion because it was easier, but they knew about the westward nations. They just weren't interested in trying to topple those nations, but it doesn't mean that they might not have traded with them, worked against individuals there, etc....". I'll further add to that that this kind of stuff was written with broad strokes, and I wouldn't be surprised to find 3 or 4 enclaves that "didn't go with what the collective wanted" and went westward to pursue their own private interests (even if it was for short term reasons, like finding some item, collecting some components in mass scale, etc...). The fact that Jiksidur was found west of Netheril says that they were spreading themselves in various directions. I also say that I wouldn't even limit it to the main continent and wouldn't be surprised to find enclaves expanding eastward across the ocean, etc...

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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Posted - 11 Jan 2021 :  19:48:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I've been pondering the idea of either the Rock of Bral or Dragon Rock being a Netherese enclave. Not both -- I figure one was already there and the Netherese made the other. I know that Netheril was pretty much chased out of space, but it's possible it was a later effort, and/or an independent one by folks that downplayed or even denied a connection to Netheril.

Part of why I think this is because it's canon that both of these locations are in the Tears of Selūne -- but it seems unlikely that you'd have two similar trading centers in such a tight space. To me, this makes it more likely that one was a successful interloper.

I like the idea that one was an enclave taken into orbit, though it seems it would be easier to either utilize an existing Tear, or grab some random hunk of rock already in space and reposition it.



This is why I did this with Doubloon going up there, though I created the link for doubloon (renamed Luneira) via a more convoluted path (i.e. doubloon goes to Halruaa after the fall, is part of the exodus of Leirans to Nimbral, and its from Nimbral that it goes up). This has the added feature of doubloon being able to be up there and be invisible (a rumored ability that that particular enclave was known to possibly have). By doing all of this involving Nimbral, it also provides a linkage to Leira, who is linked to the moon (I realize that you don't consider that canon).

One thing to bear in mind with this concept is that from a spelljammer perspective, there are very few helms that can move something near this size. Since you are actually leaving the gravity well of the planet (or at least I believe you are... that might be worth reading up on) I believe that you actually need a helm, which a mythallar isn't. I can see a mythallar effectively providing the power for a helm, but not the ability OF a helm. The only thing I can recall with the power to move something of this size is the dwarven one (think its the forge where they have to craft to get it to move). My idea was that they might create a variation of a dwarven forge helm in concept that relies on the creative energies of making scrolls, potions, etc... It may not be NEAR as efficient either, but if it can allow it to go into the area of the tears/moon, etc... that's far enough to make for a storyline.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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Posted - 11 Jan 2021 :  20:39:22  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One thing I like to think is that the Netherese had been studying many far flung areas, and that's why they knew they could relocate to Halruaa to reform their society with relative safety (given its mountainous borders). We know that Larloch was watching Narfell as well, since Jiksidur crashed there. But that bit of lore didn't come out until like ten years or so later. Basically, the original writer wrote up the Netheril boxed set trying to make a framework on a world that he had little solid information for (as in he had modern info, but little hard fact historical with dates), and so rather than stepping on other toes, he stayed in his little sandbox area. Its real easy to knock the guy afterward, and I know there's a lot of mess ups in the Netheril boxed set, but I'll give him respect for the breadth of what he was trying to do.



Steven Schend was operating in the exact same vacuum for "Cormanthyr". The two products simply don't compare.

-- George Krashos



I won't say the same vacuum. Netheril was in 1995/1996. Cormanthyr was in 1998. So, the "arcane age" material had been out for 2 years and was getting feedback. To note, I'm not saying that to offend Steven (because my two favorite realms authors are Steven Schend and Eric Boyd... sorry Ed if you read this, but I gotta say the truth...). I'm just not going to fault the guy for the earlier work... its still good work. Still, I know SOMETHING happened... because a LOT of folks seem to be P.O.'d with him I've come to discover maybe 10 years later.

Also, just to note there's other factors that started to occur in our lives that would start to make a big difference in how feedback is gained. By 1998, America Online had a huge presence for D&D (huge for the time mind you), that eclipsed what had been happening earlier with Prodigy. People were starting to connect better than they ever had before. In fact, its weird, because the product you mention has a brief thank you to me in it at the beginning (granted amongst several others) that shows a little bit of how much this kind of online presence was helping.

from page 2 of Cormanthyr
Research Assistance: Tyler Bannister, Grant Christie, Brian Fields, Aaron Losey, Peggy McLaughlin, Toby Mekelburg,
Bobby Nichols, Josh Powell, Peter Shackleton, Hauke Stammer, Shane Voelker, Bryon Wichstadt; and AOL subscribers Jhoebryn, KBOZ74, Phillip aka Sleyvas, Rygad, and Whalejudge.

Its kind of ironic, because I don't know what I helped research with, and I didn't even find this thank you until 4 or 5 years later. Same thing happened with Empires of the Shining Sea and a few other things. If you forgive me the aside for a second, the two most pleasant memories I have for conventions was when I went to my very first Gen Con when Powers and Pantheons came out, and I went back to my hotel that night and devoured the book, and saw a Thayan bounty hunter named Savyels Aka'Pillihp, and the very next day I got to meet Eric Boyd for admittedly only a few minutes and I thanked him personally. SIDENOTE TO THAT: I had also had to fulfill a goofy promise that I would shave my head like a Thayan if I went to Gen Con when a coworker got a cute barmaid to agree to do the shaving. The second favorite memory was when I showed up for the meeting where I met you and you had written up a treatise on early Thay which introduced several concepts that (even though non-canon, and some required me to do some rework) have worked themselves into several ideas.

I still wish I had met Mr. Schend though. I've met Elaine, and she knew who I was just from my questions and then called me out by name, which tickled me to no end. At that same convention was Mr. Salvatore, and he shook my hand and had nice things to say, which honestly I had felt bad about because I'd only read three of his books at the time (though I had adored the first two, the third not as much, and sadly I fell behind and to this day I'm still trying to catch up on his writing. He is a machine it seems when it comes to novel writing.).I've met Ed once too, but I don't think he knew who I was at that time. I have also met Larry Elmore several times, and I have to say he is a very pleasant person to talk with, even if for just a few minutes. Oh well, enough ruminating, back to working on things. I guess I'm turning into an old man.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 11 Jan 2021 20:45:59
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sleyvas
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Posted - 11 Jan 2021 :  22:05:24  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow, that little jaunt back in time just really hit me... I feel like the younger people don't really get how much was changing back then (I know some folks here do, because they're as old if not older than me). I got my first PC in 1989/1990 (someone's old XT that they were getting rid of). Within a year, I got my own first computer (an old 386sx 16mhz with a 20 megabyte hard disk), and I was on Prodigy like most other folks, but there were other services you could get via dialup. There was no "internet" for the masses yet though. Around 1992 or 1993 D&D officially moved to America Online (it may have been a little earlier, but that's when I remember dragon pushing that as the official place). Then in 1993 the internet became available for everyone, but you had to find a local ISP, and things like the phone or cable company didn't do it. It was mom and pop companies that rode OVER your phone dial up (I think my first ISP was datastar). I want to say that around then or maybe the next year was when I first got an email account and prior to that everything was done by most people via public forums for most personal correspondence as few knew how to use bulletin boards for much more than file sharing of shareware, pictures, and 3 second videos of poor quality porn. About that same time, I started selling computers at Office Depot and helping people learn how to use a PC left and right (can you imagine nowadays walking up to an associate at wal-mart to ask them how to use some program you have? How to hook up a printer?). By middle of 1996, I started working monitoring a bank's networks, and one of my jobs every night was to hit all of our mail servers to document how much mail had traversed them.... to prove that email was worth the money to a major business that was the leading bank for an entire state. Now, at that time, that bank's networks were using a method of network addressing called IPX which was specific to a company called Novell. So, they weren't even using IP addresses (i.e. internet protocol addresses), and so when they DID put in IP addressing they used "Internet routable" IP addresses.... as in "come on in, you can hit my stuff straight from the internet and vice versa". Then people started understanding that they could put up a NAT or PAT to HIDE their networks behind to protect their networks, and we had to re-IP our whole network to use private IP space (that was maybe 1998).

Collaboration like we see nowadays was just a LOT harder back then. It took another five or six years before the concept that many people could work successfully from home really hit the IT industry.... and a few years after that it started to be rampant everywhere (and now with COVID, its become the norm).

Now, MAYBE TSR worked differently... MAYBE they had some private dial in back office network and they allowed people to use some kind of shared storage or something that was ahead of the game. I'd really be surprised if that was the case though. I would actually love to hear stories about that kind of thing though, of HOW they worked. I kind of get the feeling though that everyone was kind of working through phone calls and the US Post Office and maybe sending files back and forth on floppies or CD's.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 11 Jan 2021 22:18:20
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 11 Jan 2021 :  22:34:43  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


One thing to bear in mind with this concept is that from a spelljammer perspective, there are very few helms that can move something near this size. Since you are actually leaving the gravity well of the planet (or at least I believe you are... that might be worth reading up on) I believe that you actually need a helm, which a mythallar isn't. I can see a mythallar effectively providing the power for a helm, but not the ability OF a helm. The only thing I can recall with the power to move something of this size is the dwarven one (think its the forge where they have to craft to get it to move). My idea was that they might create a variation of a dwarven forge helm in concept that relies on the creative energies of making scrolls, potions, etc... It may not be NEAR as efficient either, but if it can allow it to go into the area of the tears/moon, etc... that's far enough to make for a storyline.



You wouldn't necessarily need a spelljamming helm to move an enclave into orbit. There are multiple propulsion systems in Spelljammer; the main advantages of a helm are that you don't need to feed it consumable resources like a furnace or lifejammer, the ability to travel in the Flow, and of course, the rapid interplanetary transit.

None of those things are factors with moving an enclave into orbit, though. Essentially it would just take a modified or souped-up levitation to get it into orbit, then you let it get captured by Selūne's gravity and you're done.

Obviously, you'd need a way to replenish the air supply and get the other resources you need up there, but once the literal heavy lifting of moving the enclave is done, the rest is trivial.

Of course, finding and using an existing Tear would still be the easier choice. Open a gate, start marching supplies and workers in, and once the initial terraforming is done, it'd be similar to building anywhere else.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 11 Jan 2021 :  22:42:39  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Wow, that little jaunt back in time just really hit me... I feel like the younger people don't really get how much was changing back then (I know some folks here do, because they're as old if not older than me). I got my first PC in 1989/1990 (someone's old XT that they were getting rid of). Within a year, I got my own first computer (an old 386sx 16mhz with a 20 megabyte hard disk), and I was on Prodigy like most other folks, but there were other services you could get via dialup. There was no "internet" for the masses yet though. Around 1992 or 1993 D&D officially moved to America Online (it may have been a little earlier, but that's when I remember dragon pushing that as the official place). Then in 1993 the internet became available for everyone, but you had to find a local ISP, and things like the phone or cable company didn't do it. It was mom and pop companies that rode OVER your phone dial up (I think my first ISP was datastar). I want to say that around then or maybe the next year was when I first got an email account and prior to that everything was done by most people via public forums for most personal correspondence as few knew how to use bulletin boards for much more than file sharing of shareware, pictures, and 3 second videos of poor quality porn. About that same time, I started selling computers at Office Depot and helping people learn how to use a PC left and right (can you imagine nowadays walking up to an associate at wal-mart to ask them how to use some program you have? How to hook up a printer?). By middle of 1996, I started working monitoring a bank's networks, and one of my jobs every night was to hit all of our mail servers to document how much mail had traversed them.... to prove that email was worth the money to a major business that was the leading bank for an entire state. Now, at that time, that bank's networks were using a method of network addressing called IPX which was specific to a company called Novell. So, they weren't even using IP addresses (i.e. internet protocol addresses), and so when they DID put in IP addressing they used "Internet routable" IP addresses.... as in "come on in, you can hit my stuff straight from the internet and vice versa". Then people started understanding that they could put up a NAT or PAT to HIDE their networks behind to protect their networks, and we had to re-IP our whole network to use private IP space (that was maybe 1998).

Collaboration like we see nowadays was just a LOT harder back then. It took another five or six years before the concept that many people could work successfully from home really hit the IT industry.... and a few years after that it started to be rampant everywhere (and now with COVID, its become the norm).

Now, MAYBE TSR worked differently... MAYBE they had some private dial in back office network and they allowed people to use some kind of shared storage or something that was ahead of the game. I'd really be surprised if that was the case though. I would actually love to hear stories about that kind of thing though, of HOW they worked. I kind of get the feeling though that everyone was kind of working through phone calls and the US Post Office and maybe sending files back and forth on floppies or CD's.



All they would have had to do is tell Ed they were planning a Netheril boxed set, and ask for his notes. Ed would have produced a shipping container's worth of material, they could have picked through that, and if there were questions, just call him. That's what happened with a lot of other Realms stuff -- he buried them in Edlore, they called (even at his workplace!) to ask questions, and went from there.

The fact that the published Netheril and Ed's Netheril are so different shows that either this didn't happen, or that it did, but they decided to do their own thing, anyway. I'll grant that this could have been an editorial decision, but the author still could have consulted Ed for guidance, and/or looked to sources aside from their favorite band for names.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 12 Jan 2021 :  07:22:45  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My understanding is Ed did provide his notes.

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PattPlays
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


One thing to bear in mind with this concept is that from a spelljammer perspective, there are very few helms that can move something near this size. Since you are actually leaving the gravity well of the planet (or at least I believe you are... that might be worth reading up on) I believe that you actually need a helm, which a mythallar isn't. I can see a mythallar effectively providing the power for a helm, but not the ability OF a helm. The only thing I can recall with the power to move something of this size is the dwarven one (think its the forge where they have to craft to get it to move). My idea was that they might create a variation of a dwarven forge helm in concept that relies on the creative energies of making scrolls, potions, etc... It may not be NEAR as efficient either, but if it can allow it to go into the area of the tears/moon, etc... that's far enough to make for a storyline.



You wouldn't necessarily need a spelljamming helm to move an enclave into orbit. There are multiple propulsion systems in Spelljammer; the main advantages of a helm are that you don't need to feed it consumable resources like a furnace or lifejammer, the ability to travel in the Flow, and of course, the rapid interplanetary transit.

None of those things are factors with moving an enclave into orbit, though. Essentially it would just take a modified or souped-up levitation to get it into orbit, then you let it get captured by Selūne's gravity and you're done.

Obviously, you'd need a way to replenish the air supply and get the other resources you need up there, but once the literal heavy lifting of moving the enclave is done, the rest is trivial.

Of course, finding and using an existing Tear would still be the easier choice. Open a gate, start marching supplies and workers in, and once the initial terraforming is done, it'd be similar to building anywhere else.



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