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 Eilean's Maztican Delights and Mazticans in Faerun
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Dargoth
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Australia
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Posted - 08 Nov 2006 :  23:16:50  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Is there anymore info on Eilean's Maztican Delights in Waterdeep outside of the 3ed City of Splendors?

Also Im not completely up to date on the aftermath of Amns little adventure to Maztica. Are most of the Mazticans living in Faerun slaves? (Presumably most of them living in Amn)

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Kuje
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Posted - 08 Nov 2006 :  23:33:57  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wouldn't say most of them are slaves in Faerun since BG and Waterdeep also established cities in Maztica and the laws of Waterdeep still stand in New Waterdeep.

Some Mazticians even found their way to Zakhara. One is in the harem of the ruler of Zakhara and her brother is looking for her.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Edited by - Kuje on 08 Nov 2006 23:37:05
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Dargoth
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Australia
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Posted - 09 Nov 2006 :  00:19:28  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

I wouldn't say most of them are slaves in Faerun since BG and Waterdeep also established cities in Maztica and the laws of Waterdeep still stand in New Waterdeep.

Some Mazticians even found their way to Zakhara. One is in the harem of the ruler of Zakhara and her brother is looking for her.



yeah but Amn was more "Morally Flexible" and aggressive than the other colonists

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Kuje
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Posted - 09 Nov 2006 :  00:31:52  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

I wouldn't say most of them are slaves in Faerun since BG and Waterdeep also established cities in Maztica and the laws of Waterdeep still stand in New Waterdeep.

Some Mazticians even found their way to Zakhara. One is in the harem of the ruler of Zakhara and her brother is looking for her.



yeah but Amn was more "Morally Flexible" and aggressive than the other colonists



Okay? So?

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Dargoth
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Posted - 09 Nov 2006 :  00:45:02  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

I wouldn't say most of them are slaves in Faerun since BG and Waterdeep also established cities in Maztica and the laws of Waterdeep still stand in New Waterdeep.

Some Mazticians even found their way to Zakhara. One is in the harem of the ruler of Zakhara and her brother is looking for her.



yeah but Amn was more "Morally Flexible" and aggressive than the other colonists



Okay? So?



The Amnites would have been more willing to take people out of Maztica and bring them back to Faerun as slaves (unlike say Waterdeep where slavery is illigal) ie most the Mazticans live in Amn as slaves due to the way Amn treated the Mazticans

“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”

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Mel Brooks
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Kuje
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Posted - 09 Nov 2006 :  00:47:54  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I stand by what I said above.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1092 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2006 :  01:30:24  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suspect many Mazticans in Amn are indeed slaves, but that wouldn't necessarily be true elsewhere in Faerūn. For instance FRCS p.158 describes the Tethyrian city of Myratma and its Jaguard Guard from Maztica. Also, Lands of Intrigue describes a group of Mazticans visiting Waterdep and requesting help from the Harpers.

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Dargoth
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Posted - 09 Nov 2006 :  02:02:17  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The reason why Im asking is I have an idea for an NPC in my Sword Coast campaign but it makes a few assumptions about how Mazticans get on in Faerun

The NPC is a Maztican Monk who follows Helm and shes based out of Hels Hold in the Northern Sword coast (The campaign will ignore the events of Neverwinter nights 1)

Basicly the Helmites who went to Maztica where Heretics or evolved into heretics while they where there and much of Helms church in Amn has embraced this heresy which included importing large numbers of Maztican into Amn as slaves. When rumours first appeared that Helms church in Amn was involved in slaving the clergy in Helms hold sent an Inquisitor to Amn to investigate. While there he came across agents of Helms across slavers selling Mazticans in a marketplace including children. The Inquisitor didnt have the authority to stop them as the slavery was legal, Disgusted he bought as many slaves as he could and took them back to Helms Hold where he freed them.

There is now a significant idealogical split between Helms clergy in Amn and the rest of his clergy

The idea Im kicking around is making Eilean's Maztican Delights a front for a group of Lliirans dedicted to returning freed or escaped Maztican slaves back to maztica. The Lliirans focus more on the goddess Freedom and liberty portfolios then her other followers

Due to the strife in Amn (Amn vs Ogre Mage vs Stingers) many Maztican slaves have managed to escape and fled north


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Mel Brooks
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Kalin Agrivar
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Canada
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Posted - 09 Nov 2006 :  14:02:41  Show Profile  Visit Kalin Agrivar's Homepage  Click to see Kalin Agrivar's MSN Messenger address Send Kalin Agrivar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Some Mazticians even found their way to Zakhara. One is in the harem of the ruler of Zakhara and her brother is looking for her.



Don't ask me why (I'd have to look it up) but my memory tells me that the Zakharans may have known and traded with Maztica before the Helmites ever made that voyage...

after all, there is that the "sinbad the sailor" feel to the Zakharan campaign (which is missing in the Realms), even Spelljammers are welcome in Huzuz...

so a Maztican may have entered Faerun through Zakhara even before the "Discovery of the New World"

Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar

- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand
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Jorkens
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Norway
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Posted - 09 Nov 2006 :  15:03:16  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I saw a mention of Zakharan trade with Maztica yesterday, it was either in the Land of Fate campaign source book or in the Corsairs supplement. I seem to remember it saying that there was some trading going on, but not much contact. I did not see anything about how long the two continents had had contact though.
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ShadowJack
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USA
350 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2006 :  15:37:15  Show Profile  Visit ShadowJack's Homepage Send ShadowJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dargoth,
I like your concept! I would be surprised that a Maztican would trust Helm and his clergy enough to ever follow the deity loyally enough to become a monk. It is not impossible and there are real world examples of the same situation. After all, most of Latin America is catholic even though the conquistadors brought the religon with them... I really like your idea of the Lliirans helping escaped Mazticans return to their homes. Very nice. This would make a very intriguing campaign.

ShadowJack
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ShadowJack
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USA
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Posted - 09 Nov 2006 :  15:39:59  Show Profile  Visit ShadowJack's Homepage Send ShadowJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I also like the idea of Helm's clergy in Amn being labeled as heretics. This fits nicely with the clergy's portrayal in the Maztican trilogy.

ShadowJack
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AlacLuin
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Posted - 11 Nov 2006 :  05:03:04  Show Profile  Visit AlacLuin's Homepage Send AlacLuin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One must also acknowledge the difference between the contact the Amn Helmites and the Waterdeep Helmites had with the Maztican natives.

A Maztican who made contact with a Waterdeep Helmite would have a vastly different opinion of Helm.
The Helmites from Waterdeep and Baulder's Gate practically went out of their way to show that the Amn Helmites was not the only view.

Another thing to consider, if for no other reason then RP reasons, Waterdeep and Baulder's gate colonies are located in the lands of of the Kultakans, while Amn's colony is in the land of the Payit. These two did speak different languages. If your character is Kultakan, there may be bad blood between them and any Nexalins they meet. ("you expect me to be saved by this Kultakan?")
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Dargoth
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Australia
4607 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2006 :  07:33:20  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AlacLuin

One must also acknowledge the difference between the contact the Amn Helmites and the Waterdeep Helmites had with the Maztican natives.

A Maztican who made contact with a Waterdeep Helmite would have a vastly different opinion of Helm.
The Helmites from Waterdeep and Baulder's Gate practically went out of their way to show that the Amn Helmites was not the only view.

Another thing to consider, if for no other reason then RP reasons, Waterdeep and Baulder's gate colonies are located in the lands of of the Kultakans, while Amn's colony is in the land of the Payit. These two did speak different languages. If your character is Kultakan, there may be bad blood between them and any Nexalins they meet. ("you expect me to be saved by this Kultakan?")



According to Races of Faerun Nexalins are the only Maztican sub group to have crossed to Faerun

“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”

Emperor Sigismund

"Its good to be the King!"

Mel Brooks
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1092 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2006 :  17:51:48  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

According to Races of Faerun Nexalins are the only Maztican sub group to have crossed to Faerun

Well I was going to say that the Kultaka and Nexala were of the same bloodline, but going back over my notes I see that they are indeed separate ethnic groups. The nation of Nexal doesn't really exist anymore after the events of Viperhand, and most surviving Nexala would have fled west and south to Huacli, Kolan, or Tukan. Natives brought to Faerūn from New Waterdeep or Balduran would be Kultakan. And natives brought to Faerūn by Amn would be of Itza (Payit) descent. The reference in RoF doesn't seem well researched.

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames, and please be sure to check out the RED AEGIS Roleplaying Game

Edited by - Brian R. James on 11 Nov 2006 18:10:49
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AlacLuin
Learned Scribe

131 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2006 :  03:28:48  Show Profile  Visit AlacLuin's Homepage Send AlacLuin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

According to Races of Faerun Nexalins are the only Maztican sub group to have crossed to Faerun


As Brian R. James basically said, that line in RoF does contradict what is implied by the older sources.

But I can Imagine that there is a good possibility of Nexalin in Faerun, but many did go to the Kolan Region. (Tukan is the city they built in that region).
Nexalins did cover allot more area that that one city that was destroyed.
The Nexalins did oppose the Golden Legion fiercely, so it is really unlikely most Nexalins would have returned to Amn in favorable positions.
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MerrikCale
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Posted - 26 Nov 2006 :  12:44:19  Show Profile  Visit MerrikCale's Homepage Send MerrikCale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On a related topic, how has the Amn civil war problems effected their Matzican holdings?



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AlacLuin
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Posted - 27 Nov 2006 :  00:26:22  Show Profile  Visit AlacLuin's Homepage Send AlacLuin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This one needs much speculation, as there is little said since the Lands of Intrigue boxed set.
A few of my thoughts....

Amn would not easily give up the holdings that bring them so much income, but reinforcements would likely be far and few between.
It would be more up to those there to make gains, so it would be mostly static.

The war in Amn might allow Waterdeep and the Baulder Gate colonies to grow.
Amn was suspected of sinking the ships of the rival colonies, the Amn navy could be busy with the war to continue doing this to the same extent, but there is a large contingent in the colony so this could continue.

Lord Drakosa, the Calishite noble, is a major land owner. (this part canon fact).
Now, the Pasha of Calimport has the ability to send forces “to help protect Drakosa's holdings” this would strengthen a Calishite position for a bid for power in the region.

The rest is all speculative (though the names are from established lore)

Cordell was assassinated seven years ago after four unsuccessful attempts. Namaxil, a native jaguar knight was found guilty and executed after a quick trial performed by Bishop Devane, the ranking cleric of Helm .
Lord Darius Bormul VII took up the title Lord Governor, barely edging out Lord Drakosa thanks to backing from Amn who didn't want to see a Calishite take power.
This was the last large influx of reinforcements to the area from Amn.

Lord Bormul has established harsher laws restricting the native religions organizations (namely the jaguar and eagle knights).
The harpers have establish contacts in the Amn area with the eagle knights for the protection of native population.
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MerrikCale
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USA
947 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2006 :  02:13:05  Show Profile  Visit MerrikCale's Homepage Send MerrikCale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AlacLuin

This one needs much speculation, as there is little said since the Lands of Intrigue boxed set.
A few of my thoughts....

Amn would not easily give up the holdings that bring them so much income, but reinforcements would likely be far and few between.
It would be more up to those there to make gains, so it would be mostly static.

The war in Amn might allow Waterdeep and the Baulder Gate colonies to grow.
Amn was suspected of sinking the ships of the rival colonies, the Amn navy could be busy with the war to continue doing this to the same extent, but there is a large contingent in the colony so this could continue.

Lord Drakosa, the Calishite noble, is a major land owner. (this part canon fact).
Now, the Pasha of Calimport has the ability to send forces “to help protect Drakosa's holdings” this would strengthen a Calishite position for a bid for power in the region.

The rest is all speculative (though the names are from established lore)

Cordell was assassinated seven years ago after four unsuccessful attempts. Namaxil, a native jaguar knight was found guilty and executed after a quick trial performed by Bishop Devane, the ranking cleric of Helm .
Lord Darius Bormul VII took up the title Lord Governor, barely edging out Lord Drakosa thanks to backing from Amn who didn't want to see a Calishite take power.
This was the last large influx of reinforcements to the area from Amn.

Lord Bormul has established harsher laws restricting the native religions organizations (namely the jaguar and eagle knights).
The harpers have establish contacts in the Amn area with the eagle knights for the protection of native population.



sounds reasonable to me



When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight.
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Tigon
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USA
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Posted - 29 Jun 2019 :  22:33:03  Show Profile Send Tigon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In my version of waterdeep Eilean's Maztican Delights is a restaurant specializing in Maztican (Aztec/Mayan inspired) food kinda mexican flare food
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 01 Jul 2019 :  08:19:30  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There was Jaguar Guard, mercenary company of 72 Jaguar Knights (Base: Myratma in Tethyr).
quote:
Kultakan warriors helped the Golden Legion conquer the great nation of Nexal. Many of them did not realize their entire continent had been opened to the people of Faerun.
Later, when things quieted a bit, the leaders of Kultaka decided to learn about the newcomers by sending a group across the seas to Faerun.
- Gold & Glory


After some commotion (oh, and the Reclamation of Tethyr)...
quote:
With their original employers dead at the hands of the Four and the Jhannivvar clan, Manik and his 35 remaining warriors fought against the Pretender Prince
both alone and alongside the Loyalist army during the Reclamation, as their honor demanded. The Jaguar Guard now resides in garrisons around Shoonach and
the 36 fierce warriors finally are treated nobly and as worthy warriors, as they help defend Tethyr from the horrors of the Cairn City.
- Lands of Intrigue (book 1)


Also,
quote:
With the aid of some rangers and more wizards than the Amnians' usual wont, the Waterdhavian
contingent forges north and establishes a second colony called Trythosford [...]
By year's end, eight of 12 ships head for Waterdeep, laden with new trade for the northern Sword Coast;
three ships sink during the return voyage. This voyage marks the first emigration of native Mazticans to Waterdeep.
(Some natives traveled to Amn as early as two years past.)
[...]
Four noble families of Waterdeep (the Adarbrents, Helmfasts, Jardeths, and Raventrees) and the Church of Helm sponsored
the expedition that installed Waterdeep's presence in Maztica. [...]
These families [...] also introduced a number of native Mazticans to Waterdeep, who are due to return home in 1370 DR.
These natives, now educated in the ways of Faerūn, are infuriated at the Amnians' abuse of their people's
misguided goodwill, and they loudly tell of Amnian injustices and the worthlessness of Amn's trade goods.
- Lands of Intrigue (book 2)



As to non-humanoids, IIRC there's a big incursion of the tlincallis in Underdark, after Amnians stole their relic or something.
Some manscorpions were seen at Battle of Bones (per Elminster's Ecologies, Appendix 1) and even at The Whistling Wizard (per Elminster Speaks) - on Moonsea!
But it's not clear whether Maztican or local ones (perhaps there were some in Calimshan and/or Anauroch all along).

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sleyvas
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USA
8051 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2019 :  01:32:10  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

According to Races of Faerun Nexalins are the only Maztican sub group to have crossed to Faerun

Well I was going to say that the Kultaka and Nexala were of the same bloodline, but going back over my notes I see that they are indeed separate ethnic groups. The nation of Nexal doesn't really exist anymore after the events of Viperhand, and most surviving Nexala would have fled west and south to Huacli, Kolan, or Tukan. Natives brought to Faerūn from New Waterdeep or Balduran would be Kultakan. And natives brought to Faerūn by Amn would be of Itza (Payit) descent. The reference in RoF doesn't seem well researched.



just a thought. The nexalans who survived find themselves suddenly homeless and fleeing a land now filled with orc, ogres, jagres, and trolls. I can see where some other Maztican tribes might pick them up, enslave them, and sell them as slaves to the Amnians. That COULD explain there being an influx in particular of Nexalans.

EDIT: oh wow, just realizing how old this thread is. Still it is an interesting concept the original person was proposing.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 02 Jul 2019 01:33:35
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8051 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2019 :  01:39:47  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

There was Jaguar Guard, mercenary company of 72 Jaguar Knights (Base: Myratma in Tethyr).
quote:
Kultakan warriors helped the Golden Legion conquer the great nation of Nexal. Many of them did not realize their entire continent had been opened to the people of Faerun.
Later, when things quieted a bit, the leaders of Kultaka decided to learn about the newcomers by sending a group across the seas to Faerun.
- Gold & Glory


After some commotion (oh, and the Reclamation of Tethyr)...
quote:
With their original employers dead at the hands of the Four and the Jhannivvar clan, Manik and his 35 remaining warriors fought against the Pretender Prince
both alone and alongside the Loyalist army during the Reclamation, as their honor demanded. The Jaguar Guard now resides in garrisons around Shoonach and
the 36 fierce warriors finally are treated nobly and as worthy warriors, as they help defend Tethyr from the horrors of the Cairn City.
- Lands of Intrigue (book 1)


Also,
quote:
With the aid of some rangers and more wizards than the Amnians' usual wont, the Waterdhavian
contingent forges north and establishes a second colony called Trythosford [...]
By year's end, eight of 12 ships head for Waterdeep, laden with new trade for the northern Sword Coast;
three ships sink during the return voyage. This voyage marks the first emigration of native Mazticans to Waterdeep.
(Some natives traveled to Amn as early as two years past.)
[...]
Four noble families of Waterdeep (the Adarbrents, Helmfasts, Jardeths, and Raventrees) and the Church of Helm sponsored
the expedition that installed Waterdeep's presence in Maztica. [...]
These families [...] also introduced a number of native Mazticans to Waterdeep, who are due to return home in 1370 DR.
These natives, now educated in the ways of Faerūn, are infuriated at the Amnians' abuse of their people's
misguided goodwill, and they loudly tell of Amnian injustices and the worthlessness of Amn's trade goods.
- Lands of Intrigue (book 2)



As to non-humanoids, IIRC there's a big incursion of the tlincallis in Underdark, after Amnians stole their relic or something.
Some manscorpions were seen at Battle of Bones (per Elminster's Ecologies, Appendix 1) and even at The Whistling Wizard (per Elminster Speaks) - on Moonsea!
But it's not clear whether Maztican or local ones (perhaps there were some in Calimshan and/or Anauroch all along).




Just to note, manscorpions are not NEW to Faerun or even the Calimshan area if you accept the novel "Star of Cursrah" as canon. It was based during the time when the genies had gone away in Calimshan, and it had scorpion centaur folk (essentially tlincalli) and a race of "Rhinaur" who were a race of tauric rhino folk. It may even be that the tlincalli of Maztica arrived there via undersea tunnels similar to the desert dwarves, dark elves, etc...that once connected the two continents (though possibly arriving centuries before the former).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 02 Jul 2019 01:42:10
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