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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
463 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2017 :  01:27:40  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So I know we have Demihuman Deities and Races of Faerun (and some bits in Grand History, largely from those two sources) for most history of the dwarves, but is there anything else.?

So we know they started, allegedly, in the Yehimals, with one branch heading northwest into Faerun and then branching into first shield dwarves, then duergar, gold, wild dwarves, Maztican (desert acclimated shield), albino Chultan (jungle acclimated shield), and maybe arctic dwarves. Another branch heads south to Zakhara (too become rather civilized milk toast dwarves). Finally another branch heads northeast into Kara-Tur to become korobokuru and ichikorobokuru.

Anything else?

Strikes me that the arctic dwarves seem a lot more like the ichikorobokuru than shield dwarves. They are small, more in tune with the primal spirits and nature, and resistant to cold, etc. Similarly, the wild dwarves seem more like the korobokuru than shield or gold dwarves.

So I wonder did a group of korobokuru that became the ichikorobokuru just cross over from the Ama Basin to the Great Glacier like the Uluit humans?

Also did a small group of korobokuru head west into Chult to become the progenitors of the wild dwarves, later mixing with the remnants of Bhaerendryn that fled there?

Thoughts?

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4920 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2017 :  02:05:45  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Only additional tidbit I can think of is Eric's listing of arrivals in the intro to "Powers and Pantheons".

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6428 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2017 :  04:45:25  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The vast majority of Underdark products were written for the Realms. But they were initially written for Greyhawk. Already populated by drow (cursed by Corellon) and by dwarves (born of Moradin deep under the world).

I posit that the Underdark is (or at least once was) something like a transitive plane or domain which overlaps (or at least once overlapped) many worlds. The "origin" of the Underdark is lost to myth, but at some point it became inhabited by drow (cast into darkness) and at some point it became inhabited by dwarves (digging their way up), and at some point some parts of the Underdark (along with some of its drow and dwarven inhabitants) ended up being connected to the surfaces of many other worlds.

Sort of my "underground" interpretation of similar mechanisms like Yggdrasil or Olympus or the Feywild connecting with (and depositing whole peoples or races onto) countless worlds. In short, I propose that all dwarves of all worlds did indeed share a common origin, forged by Moradin deep within the ground.

[/Ayrik]
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2017 :  06:29:36  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I always felt that ichikorobokuru were Kara-Tur's gnomes.

I have my own theories about 'Dwarven origins' - even imagined a novel about a group of them (most of them famous from other Realms stories) seeking out 'the lost origins of the Dwarves' in the Yehimals, and be VERY surprised by what they found there.

There is a reason why the Dwarves and Giants hate each other, and yet share similar cultures and also both practice the same type of magic (Rune). Also, RAS has established in his novels that dwarves look at firbolg like saints - they are in awe of them.

And Firbolgs change size... like Duergar, and Spriggans...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2017 :  11:13:35  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

The vast majority of Underdark products were written for the Realms. But they were initially written for Greyhawk. Already populated by drow (cursed by Corellon) and by dwarves (born of Moradin deep under the world).

I posit that the Underdark is (or at least once was) something like a transitive plane or domain which overlaps (or at least once overlapped) many worlds. The "origin" of the Underdark is lost to myth, but at some point it became inhabited by drow (cast into darkness) and at some point it became inhabited by dwarves (digging their way up), and at some point some parts of the Underdark (along with some of its drow and dwarven inhabitants) ended up being connected to the surfaces of many other worlds.

Sort of my "underground" interpretation of similar mechanisms like Yggdrasil or Olympus or the Feywild connecting with (and depositing whole peoples or races onto) countless worlds. In short, I propose that all dwarves of all worlds did indeed share a common origin, forged by Moradin deep within the ground.



The book Beyond Countless Doorways had an Underdark plane, the Underland, that connected various Underdarks to each other.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Sep 2017 11:23:58
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
427 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2017 :  11:49:32  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In my version of Realms (not canon) dwarves and giants share common ancestry as Markus suggest above ;-)
In ancient times the giants had kingdoms all over Toril and they used their smaller cousins as a workforce under the ground where they had trouble getting into. After the collapse of those kingdoms most of the dwarves remained in their caverns and started their own kindgoms. Only one of those was under the Yehimals. Much later one group of dwarves started conquest of other domains under the leadership of Taark Shanat and they created the greatest dwarven realm known to men, the Shanatar both under and above the surface.

Btw I have dwarves matching the elements - gold/gray (fire), shield/Urdunnir (earth), wild/arctic (air), halflings (water)
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3545 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2017 :  12:58:02  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Im sure i found a passage recently that the kingdom of darath was founded by dwarves that split from the main group somewhere in northern mulhorand.

Then there is a passage about a dwarven city in murghom that was destroyed when the dwarves tried to use an elder rune.

I wonder if the two are related and is this part of the arctic dwarf migration timeline. If so it means all the dwarves got to murghom and created a kingdom then its destruction caused a split in the dwarves somehow.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2017 :  16:13:41  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Using the myths in SECRETS (AEG), I figure the Yehimals were that part of the First World (The 'Midgard') that held the area where these 'born from stone' dwarves were first created (and I like to think Ptah was involved, being a truly ancient cosmic power AND 'a dwarf'). Then when the First world was shattered at the culmination of the Godswar, that piece of Midgard wound-up on Toril (in fact, I suspect much of Toril - and particularly Faerūn - were part of the 'core' of the True World; the 'laboratory/construction management' site 'of the Gods' during the creation).

Oh, and I think Annam = Odin = 'The Dwarven High God' (above Moradin there is 'another'). Annam was a 'chief' among the Prime Ordials (homebrew, of course).

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The book Beyond Countless Doorways had an Underdark plane, the Underland, that connected various Underdarks to each other.
One of my favorite 3rd party sources.

I love the Underland concept, and 4e has something similar - the Shadowdark - and I've just decided the two were one and the same (because if you enter the plane of Shadow in the Underdark - perhaps even unknowingly - you would wind-up in the Shadowdark). Thus, "all worlds are connected through the Underlands" works with any world with an Underdark, because of the Shadowdark.

And it makes lots of sense that there is greater connectivity there (to the Shadowfell) than 'above' because of the darkness. In fact, this is the method by which I think FR Drow migrated and settled GH (Erelhei-Cinlu remained connected and even interacted with FR for some time before 'the ways' were forgotten). Its actually a great fix for the Drow Creation Story to have taken place on Toril, and yet Drow can be found all over the multiverse (unlike other elves, drow breed like cockroaches, because of their high mortality rate).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Sep 2017 01:31:13
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2017 :  19:18:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Notation: that quote was a combination of Ayrik's comment and my response. Just want to be clear who was saying what.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2017 :  19:33:42  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On another note, I recently wrote my own dwarven myth, explaining the loss of the dwarven homeworld (per scattered references in Spelljammer lore), the dwarven issues using arcane magic that existed before 3E, and how this changed in the Realms (because the writers of the 3E FRCS gave themselves the perfect vehicle to address this and then did not do so).

It's not the most original thing, and likely could use a lot of tweaking...

Short version: on the dwarven homeworld, the ones that used arcane magic were mostly in one clan. The other clans didn't distrust magic, but it was very much not their thing. And then something happened, and some overwhelmingly strong enemy attacked... And this attack came out of the territory held by the dwarven mages. It may or may not have been their fault; by the time the fecal matter hit the rotating ventilation device, everyone who knew what happened was either dead or trying very hard not to die. So the magic dwarves got the blame.

However the evil came about, it swept everything away that was before it. Though the magic-using clan was mostly in one area, all the clans intermixed, and it was those those clansdwarves that weren't in the clanhold that had to open and hold the portals that let the rest escape -- so few of that clan survived. And given that the clan was blamed for the fall of the homeworld, the surviving dwarves shunned arcane magic. This was all thousands of years ago, so pretty much all of this has been forgotten -- except the aversion to magic.

But over the years, the surviving magic dwarves intermarried with the other scattered dwarves, and their bloodline wound up being passed down thru the generations.

The few odd cases of dwarven magic-users from before the Thunder Blessing were descendants of that clan; usually they were the offspring of two descendants of the clan -- kind of a throwback, if you will. One of the effects of the Thunder Blessing was to make that bloodline stronger, and more prominent -- thus returning arcane magic to the dwarves.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Sep 2017 22:31:50
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6428 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2017 :  00:46:51  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
The book Beyond Countless Doorways had an Underdark plane, the Underland, that connected various Underdarks to each other.
Cool, thanx Wooly!

I'd never heard of that one, but the sample file and online reviews look promising. Added to my endless pile of "must obtain", but it'll likely be a long time before I obtain and read it, lol.

[/Ayrik]
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2017 :  01:10:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I always felt that ichikorobokuru were Kara-Tur's gnomes.



I always felt they were the korobokuru that didn't know to stay out of poison ivy.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2017 :  01:32:00  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*** GROAN ***

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Notation: that quote was a combination of Ayrik's comment and my response. Just want to be clear who was saying what.

I fixed it - Thought I had deleted everything but that part I left.

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

quote:
The book Beyond Countless Doorways had an Underdark plane, the Underland, that connected various Underdarks to each other.
Cool, thanx Wooly!

I'd never heard of that one, but the sample file and online reviews look promising. Added to my endless pile of "must obtain", but it'll likely be a long time before I obtain and read it, lol.
Its written by all the same guys that worked on Planescape, so I consider it as canon as something non-canon can get.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Sep 2017 01:34:07
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
463 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2017 :  01:57:43  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks all. I think I shall stick with the similarities. In large part because it makes the arctic dwarves make sense to me. I've always kind of hated them, and yet there they are despite my feelings. I originally felt the same way about wild dwarves though I've actually grown quite fond of them over the years. Nevertheless the origins of both have always left me wanting more. The korobokuru link helps explain so much more of the cultural differences of both subraces with the main group of Faerunian dwarves from their physical differences and their veneration of primal spirits over the Mordinsamman to their lack of stronger societal links and seeming disinterest in living underground.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4920 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2017 :  02:46:20  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was toying with this:

-2274 DR A group of dwarves from Clan Frostblade, located in the mountain range to the north of the Border Forest in the Tortured Lands, is exiled after refusing to participate in a raid against the elven city of Yrlaancel. Seeking to join kin in Dareth far to the east, and led by the their matriarch Inna and her sons Gackal and Kurit, the dwarves become lost in the Great Glacier. They establish a refuge and over the centuries become the Innugaakalikuritt dwarves, losing all memory of their past.

I see the the original dwarves of Dareth as the "arctic dwarves" in the sources and travelling from the Yehimals (over time naturally).

The FR14 Great Glacier dwarves are so "non-dwarven" that I surmised that they they were a unique group to that area and had not interacted with the other dwarves of the region. Having been isolated so long from their fellow dwarves, it only took three of four centuries before the fact that they were surrounded by outside influences made them lose their "dwarfness". They likely interbred with the Ulutiuns here and there, and in doing so, they slowly lost the dwarven language. Before you knew it, they were "short eskimos". FR14 doesn't mention what deities the Innugaakalikuritt worship, but I would suggest that they are debased versions of the Mordinnsamman or they may have moved to nature worship.

Just my 2cp.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2017 :  03:45:32  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like that spin, but given the dwarven lifespan, I wonder if that's far enough in the past for them to emerge as a distinct subrace.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Sep 2017 03:45:45
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2017 :  04:04:42  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

quote:
The book Beyond Countless Doorways had an Underdark plane, the Underland, that connected various Underdarks to each other.
Cool, thanx Wooly!

I'd never heard of that one, but the sample file and online reviews look promising. Added to my endless pile of "must obtain", but it'll likely be a long time before I obtain and read it, lol.



I did a chapter-by-chapter review, as I was reading it, if you're interested. Obviously, your mileage may vary, and it's worth noting that my opinions on things discussed here have sometimes been rather at odds with the majority of other people's opinions -- like my dislike of the War of the Spider Queen books.

My review: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12158

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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3545 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2017 :  07:57:58  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like it George.

So let me just get something straight.

First we have the proto dwarves from the yehimals/murghom settle the kingdom of dareth which i imagine is very different from any dwarven kingdom today.

Then some dwarves from clan frostbite end up in the great glacier and become the arctic dwarves.

Then dwarves from delzoun arrive in dareth and help rescue them from hoarfaern. Then dareth is destroyed and presumably the survivors join with the arctic dwarves or flee to found isolated delves around the great glacier.


A few questions spring to mind.

1 - why did these dwarves keep heading north. Is there a dwarven legend about moradin and the largest mountain range in the world (its meant to be the yehimals but they mistake it for whats beyond the spine of the world). Or is there something else pulling dwarves further north.

2 - why didnt the arctic dwarves integrate with dareth, do the two cultures just not get along, were the frostbite dwarves branded as traitors by their kingdom and even the dwarves of dareth recognised the mark.


Loving the lore as always though george, keep it coming.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4920 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2017 :  10:34:27  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I like it George.

So let me just get something straight.

First we have the proto dwarves from the yehimals/murghom settle the kingdom of dareth which i imagine is very different from any dwarven kingdom today.

Then some dwarves from clan frostbite end up in the great glacier and become the arctic dwarves.

Then dwarves from delzoun arrive in dareth and help rescue them from hoarfaern. Then dareth is destroyed and presumably the survivors join with the arctic dwarves or flee to found isolated delves around the great glacier.


A few questions spring to mind.

1 - why did these dwarves keep heading north. Is there a dwarven legend about moradin and the largest mountain range in the world (its meant to be the yehimals but they mistake it for whats beyond the spine of the world). Or is there something else pulling dwarves further north.

2 - why didnt the arctic dwarves integrate with dareth, do the two cultures just not get along, were the frostbite dwarves branded as traitors by their kingdom and even the dwarves of dareth recognised the mark.


Loving the lore as always though george, keep it coming.



The heading north part is all about following the mountains I think. It's petty clear that the dwarves of the Yehimals that founded Dareth went north up the Sunrise Mountains, then onto the Icerim Mountains and then finally to the mountain range that sits on the eastern edge of the Great Glacier and south of Sossal but isn't named in the sources, even the old Fonstad Atlas. Re-reading the entry for Dareth in FR11 (p.55) it states: "Dareth's borders lay within the mountain range named for it plus Mount Sundabar, Heroes' Height and the high valleys between". So the mountains in question must be the Dareth Mountains. That might be an old name, fallen into disuse, but no other is mentioned in the sources.

The dwarves that founded Sarphil in my view went underground, skirted the southern part of the modern-day Thayan plateau (after encountering the drow of Undrek'Thoz) and then followed the shores of the Glimmersea to the Earthfasts and Earthfasts. This path is alluded to in the City of Raven's Bluff sourcebook, where the dwarves who flee the fall of Sarbreen take the same route in reverse to escape their foes.

As for your second question, I think it's all to do with geography. FR14 comments that there are no passes through the Angsaas Chain (Eastern Shield) into the lands of Dareth/Sossal. So while FR11 mentions that the dwarves tunnelled and mined into the eastern bulwark of the Great Glacier, the Dareth dwarves didn't manage to get on top of the glacier to meet their distant kin. Simply, they never met.

And yes, I think that after the fall of Dareth proper, small, isolated dwarf holds on the fringes of the Great Glacier were established and exist there to this day, trading with the humans of Sossal and Armridge. Armridge actually looks like a great option for fleeing dwarves, noting that it has another, separate clump of mountains for them to dig into. However, I don't think that they had any contact with the Innugaakalikuritt. That group is so alien in terms of "dwarfness" that I want to see them isolated for three millennia - which I think is plenty of time for them to become what they became.

So, after re-reading FR14 and the timeline entry on p.5, my amended version is:

-2274 The dwarves of Clan Frostblade, located in the mountains to the north of the Border Forest in the Tortured Lands, are exiled by other clans after refusing to participate in a raid against the elven city of Yrlaancel. Driven into the Great Glacier to die, four families survive under the leadership of the clan matriarch Inna and her sons Gackal and Kurit. They establish a refuge in the peaks of Novularond and over the centuries become the Innugaakalikuritt dwarves, losing all memory of their past.

This is always so much fun.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 27 Sep 2017 10:50:47
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3545 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2017 :  10:54:02  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perfect stuff and is going in my archives.


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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2017 :  16:03:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The way I look at it - regarding 'oddities' like arctic and jungle dwarves - is that dwarves are an ancient (possibly pre-Creator) Race, and they are primal earth spirits at heart, who have become 'mere mortals' from living in the Prime Material for tens of thousands of years. Their very nature makes them 'take on' the aspects of their surroundings. They have become 'one with the cold', and 'one with the jungle'. Their earth-nature has simple shifted to other, more prevalent elements in the immediate vicinity. Think of it as a magical form of Evolution.

I think something very similar goes on with the giants and dragons (even more so, in fact) - they also take on 'elemental aspects'. Of course, I toss-out most of the stuff from Troy Denning's Giant novels and the Giantcraft sourcebook as well (I long-ago gave up trying to make sense of FR's mish-mosh giant-lore).

They really should have done a complete reboot with the Sundering 2.0.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Sep 2017 16:04:23
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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
147 Posts

Posted - 29 Sep 2017 :  19:48:30  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Markus: there is more "elemental aspects" if you see on the 3th edition and 4th ed. Azer, who more or less was elemental Dwarves, and the 5th ed. who is forged, genderless. Taken together (if both views is valid) you'd get a genderless, breeding Elemental race of Dwarves, who can interbreed with other dwarf races. Could be interpreted in other ways, as, these being two different races of Dwarves, so both editions is true, but isn't the same type of dwarf at all.
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Thogrimm
Acolyte

USA
3 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2017 :  05:07:20  Show Profile Send Thogrimm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is a topic of focus for me right now. I have been complaining to friends that Ed apparently loved Elves and Dragons in the history of the Realms, but seems to have relatively neglected the dwarves.

There are tidbits about the early existence of dwarves in Toril, and seemingly nothing before -16kDR. This has lead others to suppose they came from elsewhere as the elves did. For me the missing link in canon is the role of Titans before the Days of Thunder. Again there are a few mentions of them battling gods and primordials, but nothing concrete. Old 1e/2e lore (even game rules) focused on dwarven hatred of giants, that has faded in current rules / setting. Realms lore talks about Annam, a titan and father of the giants, visiting Toril.

So who were the Titans, and what role did they play in the truly forgotten times of the Realms? Were they an advanced race who were the first to settle on Toril? Did they have human slaves during the Age of Ages whose worship gave power to the gods? When the Dendar the Night Serpent swallowed the sun and brought an age of darkness to Toril, where the titans forced underground? Living underground was unbearable to their human slaves, so the titans turned to dwarves to do their bidding in the Underdark during the Shadow Epoch?

Once the sun returned and the glaciers retreated, the Creator Races show up, but they had to contend with giants in Jotunbrud, not titans. So have dwarves been in the Realms since the Days of Thunder, but either have stayed hidden, or just not written about by elven and other sages of the past?

I have more, but dont want to ramble in my first post! Very interested to continue exploring this topic!
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