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 "The Godborn" -- Chapters 11 - 15 & Epilogue
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2013 :  03:14:02  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Well met

This is a Book Club thread for The Godborn (part of "The Sundering" saga), by Paul S. Kemp. Please discuss chapters 11 - 15 and the epilogue herein.

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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
1792 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2013 :  03:55:53  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I loved this book, but the ending did feel a bit rushed to me. It wrapped everything up--while leaving room for a possible sequel--but I felt there was a lot of build-up, and then kaboom! But it was overall a good read

Sweet water and light laughter
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2013 :  14:09:35  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I wrote a four-page, three-thousand-word review on this book, and I realized half of it would make Paul . . . um, feel bad. I loved it, and I thought it's worth the four-year wait. And there are so many unexpected scenes that left me on the edge of my seat and wanting for more. It's just that it felt rather short--the conclusion seemed so abrubpt.

Every beginning has an end.
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Euranna
Learned Scribe

USA
219 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2013 :  21:05:41  Show Profile Send Euranna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Riven giving Gerak his girls about killed me.
Every time he opened his mouth I laughed, but that last time telling his girls they saved him and that he loved them. Right to the heart. It was as if he was saying goodbye to all that was mortal/human in a very tangible way. I am confident that is the only time Riven has or will say those 3 words to any being. He said earlier that his dogs kept him human. I think it was the case in his mortal life as well, but even more so as a godling. But now he, he no more a godling and cannot be human anymore, so he let them go.

The end was very climatic, it defintely left me wanting more (and dying for the next book). I am not sure it could have been stretched and been a good ending however.

I enjoyed the book. As is usual with Paul's work, parts made me cheer, yell, cry, want to punch him in the face..you know, the usual.
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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
1792 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2013 :  02:52:35  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As a dog lover, I can agree, Euranna. Riven really loved his dogs, and while it might have been cool if they gained some kind of divinity and became his "divine pets" (I know some of the gods have animal companions), I also felt it was fitting they went to Gerak, who had lost so much.

Sweet water and light laughter
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1357 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2013 :  06:49:29  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


I wrote a four-page, three-thousand-word review on this book, and I realized half of it would make Paul . . . um, feel bad. I loved it, and I thought it's worth the four-year wait. And there are so many unexpected scenes that left me on the edge of my seat and wanting for more. It's just that it felt rather short--the conclusion seemed so abrubpt.



Let us see anyways? :P Can't agree/disagree until we've read it!
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1357 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2013 :  06:52:06  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Euranna

Riven giving Gerak his girls about killed me.
Every time he opened his mouth I laughed, but that last time telling his girls they saved him and that he loved them. Right to the heart. It was as if he was saying goodbye to all that was mortal/human in a very tangible way. I am confident that is the only time Riven has or will say those 3 words to any being. He said earlier that his dogs kept him human. I think it was the case in his mortal life as well, but even more so as a godling. But now he, he no more a godling and cannot be human anymore, so he let them go.




I'm not really a "dog guy," but I did like the symbolism of his giving up his last ties to mortality.
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Euranna
Learned Scribe

USA
219 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2013 :  15:08:31  Show Profile Send Euranna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
CD: Remember that Riven did not like that the shadow stuff was in them so much, so he did not want to them to be anything other than dogs. There was a hint of guilt in the tone when he thought how unnaturally long they lived with him in the Citadel. He gave Gerak another chance at a life by giving his girls to him.

Masked Mage: The symbolism is pretty profound. I never thought I would tear up for Riven, and yet, there I was.
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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
1792 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2013 :  02:47:20  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Which is why I found it fitting that they went to Gerak. I know Riven wasn't happy about them having shadow in them. I was just saying it might have been cool had they become his "divine pets", if circumstances had been a little different. But I found it quite touching that they went to Gerak, who had lost so much.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe

Portugal
483 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2013 :  19:10:03  Show Profile Send Tanthalas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The ending did feel somewhat rushed, but its also true that the events in the last chapter took probably an hour of real time, so things were supposed to be going down fast.

I have a bigger problem with Mags involvement in the final fight being a bit detached since Sakkors was only there to finish off Rivalen, which they could have probably accomplished easily even without it. But at least he had a role in connecting their minds so they could speak with eah other.

I hope we get to see more of these characters, I'm interested in knowing how Orsin had met Vasen in a previous life (but that's the kind fo stuff that we'll probably never know).

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask these questions, but:

1. I was under the impression that Kesson Rel wasn't a full-fledged god either. That his divinity came from a little part of Mask's divinity that he originally stole. Even disregarding that, it seemed like Shar had already devoured most of Mask's divinity at the end of the previous trilogy. So what does this mean for the new Mask? Is he less powerful than originally?

2. So is the original Mask dead and Riven is basically the new Mask? Not sure how things worked previously with Midnight and Mystra, but is Mask's original personality gone and now there's just Riven?

Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage".
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Euranna
Learned Scribe

USA
219 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2013 :  15:48:08  Show Profile Send Euranna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It did seem to be that as time went on, the split between Mask and Riven was blurring. Remember he said things like " I did X, I mean Mask..Shit".
I think that the essence of Mask is going to override Riven and it may be neither Riven nor Lessnor, but just a new Mask.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2013 :  13:25:01  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

1. I was under the impression that Kesson Rel wasn't a full-fledged god either. That his divinity came from a little part of Mask's divinity that he originally stole. Even disregarding that, it seemed like Shar had already devoured most of Mask's divinity at the end of the previous trilogy. So what does this mean for the new Mask? Is he less powerful than originally?
Remember those tendrils of shadows that came from Shar's eye and were sucking the divinity out of Mephistopheles and Rivalen? It's possible they worked in reverse when Vasen interrupted it, and the essence (Mask's original) spilled out instead of getting sucked in. Or probably Kesson Rel was really more divine than he had known, that he carried most of Mask's essence but just didn't know how to wield it. So what Shar consumed in the end of Shadowrealm could be just a "spare" one, so to speak.

Every beginning has an end.
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
793 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2013 :  15:26:14  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
yeah, I posted this in my thread awhile back, but this is how I interpreted it.

I know Volumvax/Kesson Rel was statwise, only a level 0 quasi-Deity in Lords of Darkness write up. However, I prefer to think of him as a divine rank 3 Demigod after reabsorbing the greater part of the divine essence he used to bound Furlinastis.

The characteristics demonstrated by him and Riven later suggest demigodhood traits from faiths and Pantheons as opposed to quasi-godhood.

Overall I also prefer to interpret Riven's absorbing all 3 essence parts as more than it seems. In short, Shar's eye was Mask's complete power trying to suck up the last of it, and Riven absorbed that as well, closing the eye, and ascending to true intermediate deity status like Mask was before.

Divine Level 10, etc
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ywhptgtfo
Acolyte

1 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2014 :  23:30:20  Show Profile Send ywhptgtfo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This book is a good read, although the main plot element don't make too much sense:
1. Shar has a lot more divine power than Mask. The tiny sliver of divine essence kept by 3 godlings shouldn't have interrupted the process.

2. If the Shadowstorm is an avatar of Shar herself trying to destroy the whole sphere, then that's against the rules in so many ways. I'd imagine many other gods would've wanted to stop it, especially Selune. However, the only players in this are Shar, Amaunator, and Mask (who's already dead).

3. The destruction of Sakkor's mythal is strange... given it should've been studied and monitored frequently by the Shadovar.

4. The weakness of Shar is a weak plot device. There are more sensible ways to make use of Vasen's connection to light to poison the well.

And of course, I should also mention some positives of the book:
1. The scenes with the Oracle are very well-written. I like how he replied to Riven on the matter of jugglers. There are some pretty touching scenes there.

2. The final scene with Lord Shadow and Brennus' constructs is also touching. It shows this man has feelings and does love something genuinely unlike the likes of Fzoul, Manshoon, and Szass Tam

Edited by - ywhptgtfo on 11 Mar 2014 00:20:00
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2014 :  03:15:56  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ywhptgtfo

3. The destruction of Sakkor's mythal is strange... given it should've been studied and monitored frequently by the Shadovar.

My sentiments exactly. As I said elsewhere, it would stand to reason that Sakkors's mythallar should have been magically tied to the Most High so that he would know exactly how it fared every second of the day, just like Shade's mythallar.

Every beginning has an end.
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ywhtptgtfo
Learned Scribe

89 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2014 :  04:51:19  Show Profile  Visit ywhtptgtfo's Homepage Send ywhtptgtfo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And the fact that its will was not subjugated.

I think Paul could've made this a clean death if he simply had Magadon reach Ordulin earlier and had the Source sacrifice itself to hold off the Eye to buy Vasen time
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2014 :  05:25:28  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

It appears that Wizards intends to lessen Shade's power and influence in 5E so that it would just be like any other major villain groups in the Realms, as opposed to being the primary or most powerful one. And I can understand that one way to do it is to deprive it of its annexed enclave, which by extension, more or less mitigates its strong grip on Sembia. I just wish that it was handled better, or perhaps other means should have been employed. Anyway, what's done is done.

Every beginning has an end.
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ywhtptgtfo
Learned Scribe

89 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2014 :  00:08:30  Show Profile  Visit ywhtptgtfo's Homepage Send ywhtptgtfo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Shadovar is a bad invention anyway... They were supposed to be exciting because they were Netherese but then again they aren't Netherese and the Shadow Weave is now gone.

It's a sort of cheese on the level of Myth Drannor.

Neither Myth Drannor nor Netheril should've been brought back in any form because they were all extremely overpowered and there's no way to bring them back without destroying the balance or making a joke out of them.

Same can be said about Imaskar and Miyeritar.
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe

789 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2014 :  05:13:13  Show Profile Send silverwolfer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe, except they are collecting chosen now. I am seeing a ticking time bomb, because what gods allow chosen to be round up like cattle ?
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3071 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2014 :  14:27:32  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer

Maybe, except they are collecting chosen now. I am seeing a ticking time bomb, because what gods allow chosen to be round up like cattle ?

Ones that want a bunch of Chosen in a specific area at a single point in time...

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

Ashe's Character Sheet

Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2014 :  11:07:30  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Loved this book , however as other people have pointed out the ending felt a bit rushed to me. But its not like this is Paul's fault as this book was originally supposed to be a trilogy.
Also personally I never had a problem with the Shadovar. I think having such strong evil doers is a good opportunity to tell some truly epic ,against all odds kind of stories.
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Copper Elven Vampire
Senior Scribe

371 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2014 :  11:40:38  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
[/quote]Ones that want a bunch of Chosen in a specific area at a single point in time...
[/quote] I agree. Right where they want them.
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strafer
Seeker

15 Posts

Posted - 21 Jul 2014 :  05:28:06  Show Profile Send strafer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I enjoyed the book but if it had been the trilogy it was initially supposed to be it wouldn't have seemed as condensed. These 3 characters gain the abilities of a god but then we barely get to seem them utilize them, especially Rivalen.

Vasen personality is a far cry from the depth and inner conflict of Cale. Cale and Riven's character development was intriguing. The hunter was interesting but seemed more of a minor character. I was surprised how much focus he got in comparison to some of the other characters.

The ending with Riven's dogs and the homunculi was great. Read both of those scenes twice. The village scene was intense.

Edited by - strafer on 21 Jul 2014 05:32:59
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