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Ardashir
Senior Scribe

USA
544 Posts

Posted - 13 Jan 2007 :  17:57:27  Show Profile  Visit Ardashir's Homepage Send Ardashir a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
HI all, have a question here.

I just got Powers and Pantheons (nice book BTW) and I read about the Nobanion, and it was stated that his greatest temple was located in Nathlekh, the City of Cats.

What I'd like to know is, was that the sole reference to Nathlekh in canon material, or has it been described elsewhere? It sounds like an unusual place, even for the Realms, what with weretigers, werelions, and other werefelines walking the streets openly in their hybrid/bipedal forms and such. I think the book also mentioned the tabaxi as being there as well (which might make Nathlekh the source of that feline dancer in the Dalelands who Volo told us all about), who I don't think have been updated for 3.5?

Just how well known is this city? Most folk in the Realms fear lycanthropes, so I can't help but to think that it's hidden to some extent. I'd like to send some PCs there someday for whatever reason, and there's a big difference in how to present it if it's well known as compared to a hidden haven.

Thanks for any information on Nathlekh.

Reefy
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United Kingdom
892 Posts

Posted - 13 Jan 2007 :  18:03:20  Show Profile  Visit Reefy's Homepage  Click to see Reefy's MSN Messenger address Send Reefy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A quick search brought this up from the Realms-L Archives. It's from Tom Costa, which is a good seal to have on it too: http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0101c&L=realms-l&D=1&P=169

Life is either daring adventure or nothing.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Posted - 13 Jan 2007 :  23:33:11  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nathlekh was also briefly mentioned in 2e's Vilhon Reach tome... as well as the 3e Shining South sourcebook (there's only a one sentence reference in there as I recall though).

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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
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Posted - 13 Jan 2007 :  23:36:02  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A City of Cats? Wouldn't mind living there.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1037 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  03:36:13  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's a shame that 4e ruined Nathlehk, they turned the city into a mini Kara Tur, and obliterated the original flavour of the city, and 5e has yet to fix it, I mean they ruin the city for non reason, they could have founded a Should city anywhere, there was plenty of space, but instead they got rid of all the cool flavour, and the 4e city had nothing in common with what came before.

And to make matters worse, the Shou seem to worship Faerun gods, but with Shue style, instead of Shue religions.

I'd love to find out feline lycanthopy raged wildly in Nethlehk driving none infected Shou out of the city, allowing it revert to the previous theme, The City of Cats.
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  12:08:50  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree. That said, no reason it can't be both. As I recall there is a reference that the city still has lots of cats. Perhaps the cats were more welcoming of the Shou and things just grew from there. However, as the history of any region that experiences rapid immigration shows, the original folk often come to resent the new folks for a time until they are better integrated (which may take decades and decades or never happen).

So now we have a city filled with various cat-folk worshipping the Cat-Lord, Sharess, Nobanion, and whoever else struggling to find space for the Shou, many of whom have probably also converted to those gods to fit in or as they found their own gods less responsive. Then you got all the wacky mixes that could be fun or funny or both. I'm picturing a tibbit/werecat samurai.
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sleyvas
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USA
5348 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  16:11:17  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm, never noticed them doing that. I'd probably keep the old city, and make many of the "Shou" that are in the region actually be hengeyokai who change into cats. Maybe they keep this fact secret from outsiders, and maybe this is why visitors are confined to a certain section of the city.... so they won't see "humans" changing into cats because many "westerners" immediately equate this to "evil lycanthropy".

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  17:13:55  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's a cool idea.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1037 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2017 :  20:06:04  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

I agree. That said, no reason it can't be both. As I recall there is a reference that the city still has lots of cats. Perhaps the cats were more welcoming of the Shou and things just grew from there. However, as the history of any region that experiences rapid immigration shows, the original folk often come to resent the new folks for a time until they are better integrated (which may take decades and decades or never happen).

So now we have a city filled with various cat-folk worshipping the Cat-Lord, Sharess, Nobanion, and whoever else struggling to find space for the Shou, many of whom have probably also converted to those gods to fit in or as they found their own gods less responsive. Then you got all the wacky mixes that could be fun or funny or both. I'm picturing a tibbit/werecat samurai.



It actually seemed the other way around, the new residence took over from the old, I think when the old city was wrecked during the spell plague.

However with the Sundering, the geographic changes to the city would be changed and perhaps descendants of the inhabitants of the old city would have returned from Abier, creating an akward situation where nether group knows what to do with the other.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1037 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2017 :  20:09:47  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Alternately, if Sharess has returned to the Faerun in incarnated form like the other Mulhorandi Gods, and with Nobanion no longer spellplague touched and fixing things in the area, they could both confront the Shou of Nethlekh which could be interesting.
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2017 :  01:22:19  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The 4E information is vague enough that it could be spun in a lot of ways.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5348 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2017 :  14:43:13  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

That's a cool idea.



Thank you. Take lemons. Make lemonade. Having the hengeyokai can simply make another faction of cat folk. Also, I know most hengeyokai turn into small animals, but there may be different types of Hengeyokai (i.e. some may change into leopards, some may change into tigers, some may change into ordinary cats). Alternatively, perhaps there are amongst these Shou weretigers and wereleopards.

Given the lore in the Kara-Tur boxed set, if some of these hengeyokai can change into black leopards, there may be a following of the "black leopard cult" springing up amongst these Shou (possibly worshipping Malar, but under another name... or possibly worshipping a renewed aspect of Kiga the Predator from the Zakharan ruined kingdoms). In fact, the original Kiga the Predator of Zakhara could easily be related to the black leopard cult in T'u Lung. Even more, given that Kiga is sometimes presented as a panther headed goddess, I wouldn't be surprised if she wasn't part of another group of Mulans who ended up going in another direction from the rest of the Mulan folk. She might have done this because her people decided to travel in another direction. If one wanted to, one could even say that Kiga sounds very much like Pakhet of the Egyptian pantheon (she's a hunter, specifically hunting at night so dark fur would fit, who hates snakes and other vermin, with the title "Night huntress with sharp eye and pointed claw", who had a desert aspect). Depending on how you wanted to spin it, these black leopard cultists may be wanting to return to their roots with Kiga (having her simply be a huntress, and possibly fleeing the other black leopard cultists of far off Kara-Tur). Having another black cat god of the hunt could actually stir up some animosity with Malar, and that could be a central point as his cultists want to murder these Shou.... and perhaps some from the current generation decide they like his methods better.

Similarly, if some of these Hengeyokai are able to change into tigers or are Shou weretigers, they may worship Ferrix, the "weretigress" goddess of curiosity and knowledge. They may have simply come east out of curiosity and to "aid those black leopards who seek to get away from the murderous cult in T'u Lung". In fact, you could even introduce some Malatrans into this mix as well, for there is a race known as Katanga that aren't lyncanthropes, but they specifically can turn into tigers (there's also noted "lion Katanga" and "black leopard" Katanga, though I didn't see rules for such). They could have specifically left the vicious jungles of Malatra for a more peaceful place like the Shou. These Malatrans may actually find the "look" of the Turmish people to be highly beautiful as well, and the two cultures might interbreed (and there also could be a lot of Katanga bastard children)

In this way, you now have a decent pantheon of cat gods (one lion "noble" in Nobanion, one cat "luxury" goddess in Sharess, one panther "night hunter" in Kiga, one tiger "knowledge" in Ferrix). You also have a decent explanation for why this influx or people (i.e. over in Kara-Tur they were amongst bloodthirsty cultures, and they sought a more peaceful life).

Info on Kiga the Predator from Ruined Kingdoms

"Today, only the religions of Shajar, Ragarra, and Kiga have survived the difficult translation to modem times. Now fragmented into a number of small cults, these faiths no longer enjoy the political influence they had previously. The re-attainment of temporal power, or at least the right to worship in public, remains their followers#146; long-term goal."

<snip>
"Kiga, goddess of the hunt and of the kill, was depicted as a mysterious, sometimes sinister, panther-headed deity. A predatory goddess, Kiga was venerated by those who hunted for necessity or for personal amusement. Today, the worship of Kiga has been perverted into ritual murder by her (thankfully) few lycanthropic followers, based in Kadarasto."

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 14 Jun 2017 :  00:32:37  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You could also use Malar. One, he hates Nobanion, so I'm sure he's infiltrated the disaffected. Two, he also becomes a cat-like hunter in one of his avatar forms.
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farinal
Learned Scribe

Turkey
211 Posts

Posted - 14 Jun 2017 :  01:24:23  Show Profile Send farinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

A City of Cats? Wouldn't mind living there.



Heh visit my city, Istanbul. Definitely the city of cats of our world.

"Show some respect!" the draegloth thundered. "You adress High Priestess Quenthel Baenre, Mistress of Arach-Tinilith, Mistress of the Academy, Mistress of Tier Breche, First Sister of House Baenre of Menzoberranzan... you insolent dog!"
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
194 Posts

Posted - 14 Jun 2017 :  01:38:24  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And when it comes to feline gods, don't forget the Cat Lords: :D
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Cat_Lord
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Catlord_(old)
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Kittenlord

"A Virtue by Reflection" by Scott Ciencin in Realms of Valor has a delegation of a race of "cat lords" visiting Arabel. They seem to be natural werecats. Perhaps they came from Nathlekh?

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Bureaucrat of the Forgotten Realms Wiki

Edited by - BadCatMan on 14 Jun 2017 01:39:19
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29893 Posts

Posted - 14 Jun 2017 :  01:46:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by farinal

quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

A City of Cats? Wouldn't mind living there.



Heh visit my city, Istanbul. Definitely the city of cats of our world.



Not Constantinople?

(Hoping the song is known in Turkey, now! )

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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1037 Posts

Posted - 14 Jun 2017 :  02:55:18  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

That's a cool idea.



Thank you. Take lemons. Make lemonade. Having the hengeyokai can simply make another faction of cat folk. Also, I know most hengeyokai turn into small animals, but there may be different types of Hengeyokai (i.e. some may change into leopards, some may change into tigers, some may change into ordinary cats). Alternatively, perhaps there are amongst these Shou weretigers and wereleopards.

Given the lore in the Kara-Tur boxed set, if some of these hengeyokai can change into black leopards, there may be a following of the "black leopard cult" springing up amongst these Shou (possibly worshipping Malar, but under another name... or possibly worshipping a renewed aspect of Kiga the Predator from the Zakharan ruined kingdoms). In fact, the original Kiga the Predator of Zakhara could easily be related to the black leopard cult in T'u Lung. Even more, given that Kiga is sometimes presented as a panther headed goddess, I wouldn't be surprised if she wasn't part of another group of Mulans who ended up going in another direction from the rest of the Mulan folk. She might have done this because her people decided to travel in another direction. If one wanted to, one could even say that Kiga sounds very much like Pakhet of the Egyptian pantheon (she's a hunter, specifically hunting at night so dark fur would fit, who hates snakes and other vermin, with the title "Night huntress with sharp eye and pointed claw", who had a desert aspect). Depending on how you wanted to spin it, these black leopard cultists may be wanting to return to their roots with Kiga (having her simply be a huntress, and possibly fleeing the other black leopard cultists of far off Kara-Tur). Having another black cat god of the hunt could actually stir up some animosity with Malar, and that could be a central point as his cultists want to murder these Shou.... and perhaps some from the current generation decide they like his methods better.

Similarly, if some of these Hengeyokai are able to change into tigers or are Shou weretigers, they may worship Ferrix, the "weretigress" goddess of curiosity and knowledge. They may have simply come east out of curiosity and to "aid those black leopards who seek to get away from the murderous cult in T'u Lung". In fact, you could even introduce some Malatrans into this mix as well, for there is a race known as Katanga that aren't lyncanthropes, but they specifically can turn into tigers (there's also noted "lion Katanga" and "black leopard" Katanga, though I didn't see rules for such). They could have specifically left the vicious jungles of Malatra for a more peaceful place like the Shou. These Malatrans may actually find the "look" of the Turmish people to be highly beautiful as well, and the two cultures might interbreed (and there also could be a lot of Katanga bastard children)

In this way, you now have a decent pantheon of cat gods (one lion "noble" in Nobanion, one cat "luxury" goddess in Sharess, one panther "night hunter" in Kiga, one tiger "knowledge" in Ferrix). You also have a decent explanation for why this influx or people (i.e. over in Kara-Tur they were amongst bloodthirsty cultures, and they sought a more peaceful life).

Info on Kiga the Predator from Ruined Kingdoms

"Today, only the religions of Shajar, Ragarra, and Kiga have survived the difficult translation to modem times. Now fragmented into a number of small cults, these faiths no longer enjoy the political influence they had previously. The re-attainment of temporal power, or at least the right to worship in public, remains their followers#146; long-term goal."

<snip>
"Kiga, goddess of the hunt and of the kill, was depicted as a mysterious, sometimes sinister, panther-headed deity. A predatory goddess, Kiga was venerated by those who hunted for necessity or for personal amusement. Today, the worship of Kiga has been perverted into ritual murder by her (thankfully) few lycanthropic followers, based in Kadarasto."




Interestingly Ferrix is an enemy of Bast (Shares) as is the Catlord.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5348 Posts

Posted - 14 Jun 2017 :  13:30:01  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

And when it comes to feline gods, don't forget the Cat Lords: :D
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Cat_Lord
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Catlord_(old)
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Kittenlord

"A Virtue by Reflection" by Scott Ciencin in Realms of Valor has a delegation of a race of "cat lords" visiting Arabel. They seem to be natural werecats. Perhaps they came from Nathlekh?



That would seem to fit. Hmm, never realized the AD&D comic involved the cat lord and his replacement. I wonder if I can find them somewhere. I have a few old issues, but not many.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29893 Posts

Posted - 14 Jun 2017 :  14:33:40  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It was the "Catspaw Quartet" story arc; I believe it was issues 9-12.

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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
194 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2017 :  04:53:39  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Issues #13 to #16. IDW reprinted the comics in Dungeons & Dragons Classics, Vol. 2 in 2011, which can still be available in some parts. They don't say all that much about the Cat Lords, and what there is I've already put on the wiki, at the articles linked above.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4788 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2017 :  08:23:06  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yep, and again in my musings: new project, August, Demonshields, Manshaka and other stuff all seem to be coming together in some grand confluence.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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farinal
Learned Scribe

Turkey
211 Posts

Posted - 18 Jun 2017 :  13:40:43  Show Profile Send farinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by farinal

quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

A City of Cats? Wouldn't mind living there.



Heh visit my city, Istanbul. Definitely the city of cats of our world.



Not Constantinople?

(Hoping the song is known in Turkey, now! )



Hahah of course

"Show some respect!" the draegloth thundered. "You adress High Priestess Quenthel Baenre, Mistress of Arach-Tinilith, Mistress of the Academy, Mistress of Tier Breche, First Sister of House Baenre of Menzoberranzan... you insolent dog!"
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1110 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2017 :  15:11:12  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage  Click to see hashimashadoo's MSN Messenger address Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nathlekh as a shou city became a haven for xenophobes and non-human haters. There was a sizeable hengeyokai population there, according to one post-Spellplague Dragon article, but none of them dared show off their ability to change form.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

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http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13441 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2017 :  17:31:22  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
'Marrying' the concept of 'catlords' (cat-shapeshifters) to Hengeyokai is a good idea. A LOT of eastern monsters can easily be shoe(Shou?)-horned into existing concepts, simply as an 'eastern variant', which I prefer. For example, there is a bird-race from the Endless Wastes (can't seem to find the name ATM*) which should just be a 'Hordelands' (Tuigan) version of Kenku (and the even further eastern Tengu). There is one race - some weird, one-legged, one-armed, one-eyed thing (that hops around) that can be found in older MM's that is in Faerūn, Kara-Tur, and even Zakara, all under different names! Whats the point of that? Northmen look very different from Turami, and yet they are all just 'humans'.

We should throw out the old notion of 'subrace' and use the RW version of 'race', and then identify other 'races' as species. Elves Species, Dwarf species, etc. Or, conversely (and probably less confusingly, given those terms have been around in D&D so long), introduce the concept of 'subrace' into all these monstrous types (rather than give them different MM entries).

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Yep, and again in my musings: new project, August, Demonshields, Manshaka and other stuff all seem to be coming together in some grand confluence.

-- George Krashos

I have NOT forgotten about your request GK - in fact, I worked on it - indirectly - the better part of yesterday.

I ran into a bit of a conundrum with the Unapproachable East, which may have gotten even more mangled than The North in 3e. A LOT of rivers (and several lakes) were added in 3e in the UE book, and I have to backwards-engineer all of that into the older maps (which are now the 5e maps). And Thay changes its form in every edition (basically the same, but those damn rivers and lakes seem to move around quite a bit).

So, on the down side, I had to stop drawing that particular map, so I can GO BACK into my other project maps and 'correct' the east to my liking, so that when I play-it-forward I can make sure the map I give you corresponds to the maps in my main project.

The UPSIDE to that is it forced me to go back into that main project (the one that includes a new map of Impiltur) - a project I've put on the back-burner for at least 6 months (and WAY TOO LONG - sorry). Thus, all that 'figuring' was something I've been putting off, and now have mostly complete. Now I can move forward with the continental terrain map again, which was mostly done when I ran into this tricky bit.

Cheers --- Mark


*Manni - they appear on the cover of the second book in the boxed set, but were omitted from the MM sheets that came with the box. They were written-up in Dragon magazine #163.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jun 2017 17:43:03
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1037 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2017 :  02:53:53  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

And when it comes to feline gods, don't forget the Cat Lords: :D
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Cat_Lord
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Catlord_(old)
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Kittenlord

"A Virtue by Reflection" by Scott Ciencin in Realms of Valor has a delegation of a race of "cat lords" visiting Arabel. They seem to be natural werecats. Perhaps they came from Nathlekh?



Yeah the Cat Lord is the God of the Tabaxi now, and one of the reasons why they are visiting Faerun from Maztica.

Honestly given SCAG didn't mention Sharess, I wasn't impressed that the Cat Lord was made their deity, all Matt Sarnet was kind enough to explain their logic.

Ironically Bast, an aspect of Sharess does in fact have Tabaxi worshippers mention in some old planescape book I believe.

Seriously its practically getting to the point where Cats have their own Pantheon now.

There is the Cat Lord, Sharess (including her Bastet and Felidae aspects, which were once seperate beings), Nobanion, some Black Leopard deity in Kara Tur.

Honourable mention for Malar who has a feline form and Kelmovour who was a werepanther.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5348 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2017 :  13:40:25  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

And when it comes to feline gods, don't forget the Cat Lords: :D
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Cat_Lord
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Catlord_(old)
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Kittenlord

"A Virtue by Reflection" by Scott Ciencin in Realms of Valor has a delegation of a race of "cat lords" visiting Arabel. They seem to be natural werecats. Perhaps they came from Nathlekh?



Yeah the Cat Lord is the God of the Tabaxi now, and one of the reasons why they are visiting Faerun from Maztica.

Honestly given SCAG didn't mention Sharess, I wasn't impressed that the Cat Lord was made their deity, all Matt Sarnet was kind enough to explain their logic.

Ironically Bast, an aspect of Sharess does in fact have Tabaxi worshippers mention in some old planescape book I believe.

Seriously its practically getting to the point where Cats have their own Pantheon now.

There is the Cat Lord, Sharess (including her Bastet and Felidae aspects, which were once seperate beings), Nobanion, some Black Leopard deity in Kara Tur.

Honourable mention for Malar who has a feline form and Kelmovour who was a werepanther.



Thank you for the reminder of Kelemvor's werepanther status.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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