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Loki9
Acolyte

3 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  19:25:52  Show Profile Send Loki9 a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
My group just made the transition to 5e - I played 2e/3e FR for years, but this group hasn't and no one is really aware of or married-to the history, so forgive me if I'm about to change canon ;)

What I'm looking for is info on how City of Shade actually arrived back in Toril - were there any adventures written that actually dealt with this event, or was it just suddenly "there" in sourcebooks. (I've been looking through 3e Lords of Darkness, Empire of Shade, 2e Anauroch so far)

My plan is starting with Lost Mine of Phandelver but reworking the villain and then go into a massively reworked version of 3.5e's Tearing of the Weave/Anauroch Empire of Shade where the plot isn't to replace the Weave with Shadow Weave, but to summon the City of Shade back to the Prime Material.

In short, the Black Spider is not drow, but a Shadovar who managed to cross back to Toril and is now seeking ancient Netherese relics for means to bring the entire city back - The Wave Echo Cave's Forge of Spells being one of these relics - but it will turn out that the Sharn Wall is the thing (inadvertently) trapping the City of Shade just as it traps the Phaerimm - his arrival on Toril has already freed 1-2 Phaerimm and his ultimate success will mean freeing his city but at the cost of unleashing the Phaerimm.

The ruins of Xinlenal happen to be in the Neverwinter Wood near "agatha's lair", so I'm swapping it for Thundertree and probably cutting Agatha to boot. The Forge of Spells will be something dragged out of the ruins of Xinlenal. Also enhancing the Old Owl Well (since it's also a Netherese ruin).

Any advice, tips, etc, is greatly appreciated!

dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  19:41:12  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well im sure there is a canon explanation involving deus ex machina.

My own version was that shade travelled wholly into the plane of shadow by opening a planar tear. While it was there karsus cast his avatar spell and drained the Weave of power causing it to reboot itself.

This shunted Toril further away (planar speaking) from the Faerie and Shadow Planes, thus the planar rift shrank to the size of a pin hole and could not be enlarged by any magic Shade possessed. (The shaft of light coming through that tiny tear helped keep the enclave alive).

Over time the planes realigned and the tear gradually widened until in 1372 dr the entire enclave was able to fit through. Before that date though shadovar had been travelling through the tear to gather info and resources on Toril.

But thats just how i worked it. If you want it so that the tear was never big enough to fit an enclave through then you just need to find Telemonts old notes on how to open planar tears and recast the ritual (taking a week or more with lots of apprentices, sacrifices, and magic items to fuel the casting).

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Loki9
Acolyte

3 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  21:01:32  Show Profile Send Loki9 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
haha, yeah that's a safe bet on the deus ex..

the Telemont notes are a great idea, thanks! Perhaps I'll swap them for the "Book of the Black" macguffin in Empire of shade. I'm definitely thinking along the same lines with sacrifices, etc. Tearing of the Weave incorporates some of that, but I'll repurpose it.
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3388 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  21:50:37  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well if it helps I had Telemont's dad begin the work on other planes based on works found in the Farsea Marshes.

The Farsea Marshes are near to the ruins of Rasilith and I had it as part of the realm of Thaeravel long ago (it wasn't a marsh back then). Telemont's dad led an expedition to The Hollow (that's what the Netherese called it) and found abandoned structures that contained works on the outer planes (based on sarrukh teachins - a rival of the terraseer aided Thaeravel).

So either find Telemont's notes in a few ruins in Anauroch or in workbooks that have been spread across the realms (Neverwinter in the ruins of Ioulaum's enclave might be a good place) or in the Farsea Marsh from the source that originally inspired Telemont's work (based on his dad's work).

All slightly canon with a few canon wrinkles ironed out and a few expansions added in (Netheril history is a mess)

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hymer
Seeker

25 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  23:45:00  Show Profile Send hymer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As for adventures that detail it, well... I don't own this set of three adventures, but it does end up dealing with the Princes of the Shade. If there is an explanation given in an adventure, it ought to be there somewhere. It starts with Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave, continues with Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land, and draws to a conclusion in Anauroch: The Empire of Shade. These are late 3.5 adventures, coming out about a year before 4e if memory serves.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13822 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  01:55:38  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Everything about their return was in the aptly named novel series, Return of the Archwizards, by Troy Denning.

And if it counts for anything, I enjoyed it, which surprised me. He 'did his homework' this time.

Basically, Melevaunt Tanthul was trying to bring it back by using the Karse Stone, but an elf named Galaeron Nihmedu (from Evereska) mucked-up his plans a bit at the beginning, and accidentally caused a breech in the Sharn-Wall, which allowed the Sharns (Correction: Phaerimm) to escape Anauroch (and endanger Evereska, amongst other things). After a very convoluted series of adventures, and a major war involving the Sharn against EVERYONE, Galaeron manages to cast the ritual with the Karse Stone (Melevaunt was unable to complete it), which brought Shade (Thultanthar) back into The Realms, because for some crazy-ass reason the elf thought it would be a good idea to use them against the Sharn (whom they were completely defeated by in the past).

I can't recall what Melevaunt was doing in those tombs at the beginning, but thats where it all started, and his ultimate goal was the Karse Stone, so methinks maybe he was trying to assemble other 'relics/artifacts' as well? Oh, and Melevaunt had a group of special warriors with him from Vaasa, because... Vaasa.

He also had to fight the lich Wulgreth, just before he fought the lich Wulgreth. Thats not a typo... don't ask.

EDIT:
Wasn't there a piece of the Karse Stone also involved in that trio of adventures? If so, there you go.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jul 2017 01:40:43
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  02:07:23  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Of course, the 3E Lords of Darkness says Shade came back from Shadow a few weeks after the Fall of Netheril, didn't like what they saw, turned around and went back into Shadow... Which then begs the question of why they needed the Karsestone to return, 1600 years later.

Further begging the question is that needing the Karsestone means Lord Shadow decided to jump into Shadow without a guaranteed way to return.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Jul 2017 02:08:21
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4854 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  03:49:14  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I remember when the powers that be provided a few of us with a draft of the 3E FRCS. Some of the changes were clearly driven by the edition change and new rules (i.e. the focus on monks) and others were clearly driven by fiction requirements (of which we were totally unaware). The Return of the Archwizards novels were in hindsight already in the process of being written so my "suggestion" that a massive, frickin' city full of Netherese archwizards returning to Faerūn was a huge, clumsy gamechanger and that they should perhaps go with Shade returning and crash landing in the middle of Anauroch, thereby creating (a) a "dungeon" to explore; (b) story possibilities with shades and Netherese scattered in the region and beyond all trying their best to survive; (c) introducing a "baddie" (malaugrym?) to explain why/how Shade had to return to Toril; and (d) not having to try and explain how their magic interacted with modern day Toril (i.e. mythallars, quasi-magic items, etc etc) was the better way to go. Never got a response because clearly plans were afoot. Still think my ideas were better!

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 29 Jul 2017 03:49:34
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6239 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  04:00:21  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Deus ex pedia summarizes the timeline. Lord Shadow and Thultanthar departed the Realms -339DR, returned a short time later and "floated over the ruins of the Netherese Empire", then retreated back into the Plane of Shadow (planning vengeance against the phaerimm, "vowing that one day, they would return and reestablish the empire"). Shar's clerics had divined the true cause of Netheril's Fall but they (or Shar) chose to delude Lord Shadow so he would remain in the Plane of Shadow. Lord Shadow (now Telamont) and Thultanthar (now Shade) returned to the Realms seventeen centuries later, in 1372DR.

I'm not sure why 1372DR instead of, say, 661DR (exactly 1000 years later) or 1358DR (Time of Troubles, Avatar Crisis) or 1385DR (Spellplague) or whenever. All good times to show the Realms some real "Old School" magic.
Shade's return was apparently prompted by the phaerimm invasion (itself triggered by a meddling elf, although it was probably inevitable). Vengeance on the phaerimm, advantage over the rest of the Realms (because they were weakened from fighting the phaerimm, lol).

I note that Melagaunt Tanthul was in the Realms before Shade arrived, had even created a little mercenary-clan in Vaasa (and equipped them with some darkswords to keep bloodlines pure and loyal) several decades earlier. It seems likely that he (and other shadovar, at least some of the other twelve Princes Shade) must have visited the Realms many times during the passing centuries. The shadovar certainly knew exactly what they were doing, where to go, which allies to choose (and how best to convince, bribe, or dominate them), where to find sunken Sakkors and it's krakenized mythallar, etc. Many people assert that Melagaunt deliberately engineerd the phaerimm invasion (by deceiving/manipulating the meddling elf, etc), accelerating the conditions which prompted Telamont (along with all of Shade) to action.
It's as if the shadovar had been doing recon missions, spying, eavesdropping, information gathering, and the like for years beforehand. (They certainly also used magical scrying and divinations, interrogation of extraplanar contacts or summoned fiends, and whatever dubious information was offered by Shar's clergy ... but sometimes there's just no substitute for simply lurking in the shadows.)

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  04:46:33  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I remember when the powers that be provided a few of us with a draft of the 3E FRCS. Some of the changes were clearly driven by the edition change and new rules (i.e. the focus on monks) and others were clearly driven by fiction requirements (of which we were totally unaware). The Return of the Archwizards novels were in hindsight already in the process of being written so my "suggestion" that a massive, frickin' city full of Netherese archwizards returning to Faerūn was a huge, clumsy gamechanger and that they should perhaps go with Shade returning and crash landing in the middle of Anauroch, thereby creating (a) a "dungeon" to explore; (b) story possibilities with shades and Netherese scattered in the region and beyond all trying their best to survive; (c) introducing a "baddie" (malaugrym?) to explain why/how Shade had to return to Toril; and (d) not having to try and explain how their magic interacted with modern day Toril (i.e. mythallars, quasi-magic items, etc etc) was the better way to go. Never got a response because clearly plans were afoot. Still think my ideas were better!

-- George Krashos




That was a much better idea!

As I've noted before, when I saw the blurb about Shade returning, I assumed it was going to be used to explain the changes of 3E. I still think they massively dropped the ball by not using it that way.

I've also become rather enamored with my own alternate return of Shade, which I thought up when someone wanted to do spellscars without the Spellplague:

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So I was thinking on this a bit further... And I'll prolly use this to re-spin the return of Shade in my own Realms, since -- as I've said in the past -- I thought WotC would use Shade's return to explain the sudden advent of sorcerers and the like. I think it can also be used as a background for the appearance of spellscars.

So, when Karsus was planning his Ultimate Folly spell, he needed to gather and store a hell of a lot of magical energy. So he built this huge ring...

The ring is hundreds of miles in diameter, and it's defined by arrangements of standing stones. From the ground, these stones appear to be randomly scattered about, perhaps even natural formations... But when viewed from above by someone with a very in-depth knowledge of spellcraft, it's obvious that each of these stone formations actually is a rune of some sort.

See, each of these sets of stones is set somewhere where magic is quite strong -- at convergences of ley lines, if you will. The shape of the runes allows the stones to draw on and store the magic of these places, and their placement at precise places in the circle increases and focuses that stored power.

And actually, it doesn't have to be a ring, it could be that all of these stone emplacements would, if marked on a map and connected with lines, form some other mystical pattern, or a gigantic glyph. Either way, the individual stone formations are far enough apart that no one has ever realized there was a connection between them.

So anyway, Karsus used this to up his own power when he cast his Ultimate Folly spell. And it was due in no small part to that magic ring that he had enough power to temporarily seize divinity...

Now it's 16 centuries later, and Shade agents, sent thru in small numbers, have managed to realign all of these stones, and use the power to create a big enough portal to bring Shade back into the light. Of course, with 16 centuries of accumulating magic and the stones having been misaligned for much of that time, the magic got out of hand -- it was the arcane equivalent of dropping a bunch of nukes. There was way too much power, and though the Shades achieved their goal, the power quickly spun out of control.

The entire Weave was distorted by the unleashing of that much magic. Tsunami-like waves raced throughout the Weave, temporarily stunning Mystra and impacting the magic of the Realms like nothing since Netheril's Fall. Races never before able to touch the Weave found its wonders opening before them, and others discovered an innate connection to the Weave wholly different from that of wizards. Storms of wild magic flared and died in an instant, and many found themselves marked by the unchecked power of the distorted and rippling Weave.

It took mere moments for Mystra to reassert her control of the Weave, but in those few breaths, magic in the Realms was irrevocably changed.

Sorry, the writer in me slipped the leash for a minute, there....

But anyway, with this idea (or something similar), you could readily explain the sudden appearance of sorcerers, have an explanation for why races who previously didn't use much (or any) magic suddenly have that capability, and get your spellscars or other limited (as in, not continent-swapping or planes-destroying) effects of the canon Sellplague.


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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1426 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  08:08:32  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

which allowed the Sharns to escape Anauroch (and endanger Evereska, amongst other things). After a very convoluted series of adventures, and a major war involving the Sharn against EVERYONE,

How did the Sharn of all things endanger Evereska?

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Of course, the 3E Lords of Darkness says Shade came back from Shadow a few weeks after the Fall of Netheril, didn't like what they saw, turned around and went back into Shadow... Which then begs the question of why they needed the Karsestone to return, 1600 years later.
Further begging the question is that needing the Karsestone means Lord Shadow decided to jump into Shadow without a guaranteed way to return.

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I remember when the powers that be provided a few of us with a draft of the 3E FRCS. Some of the changes were clearly driven by the edition change and new rules (i.e. the focus on monks) and others were clearly driven by fiction requirements (of which we were totally unaware). The Return of the Archwizards novels were in hindsight already in the process of being written
So they gave a bunch of developers about a paragraph worth of summary for each to spin in different directions without communicating to each other again.
And then continuity fell apart. What a surprise. But hey, at least some genius ensured Ed doesn't control what he made.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So, when Karsus was planning his Ultimate Folly spell, he needed to gather and store a hell of a lot of magical energy. So he built this huge ring...

The ring is hundreds of miles in diameter, and it's defined by arrangements of standing stones. From the ground, these stones appear to be randomly scattered about, perhaps even natural formations...

That's a lot of work. This scenario requires Karsus to zip around the whole place for a while, and the Phaerimm to completely miss or leave alone a great chunk of his activity in the wild, never mind he's one of their greatest enemies, they have magic sense and it's more of their territory.
And then Mystra I, Mystra II, Azuth and Savras should miss the possibility of re-use dangerous to the Weave - otherwise they could just send one of their champions to tweak its key parts (or all, in this time) into being unusable for anyone else, or something.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6239 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  09:05:34  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The sheer amount of work involved in casting a godlike magic isn't unreasonable. Remember Szass Tam's massive Dread Rings, taking years or decades to construct? Along with his "memorization" and preparation for the casting of the spell/ritual, which took over a century?

One of the Netheril adventures employs a party of PCs to procure certain spell components for Karsus's Avatar. These include a gland from the Tarrasque (which is not only a difficult thing to carve out of the beast, but also difficult to contain and transport since it regenerates into a full Tarrasque within a few hours) and various brain parts of Gold Dragons (of the most ancient, wyrmy, and magically powerful sort). The PCs are apparently only one of many such groups deployed by Karsus to fetch various exotic components - while most of the other groups are composed of arcanists led by archwizards, using their 10th- and 11th-level magics to accomplish legendary things beyond the ken of mere PCs.

Although I do agree Karsus would find his efforts undermined by the phaerimm, especially once they figured out that what he was trying to do would extinguish their species.

[/Ayrik]
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3388 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  11:06:22  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Whos to say the phaerrim didnt disrupt his casting. He needed a lot of powerful reagents, perhaps the phaerimm prevented one or more grouos from getting their target items.

Karsuss spell ultinately failed to achieve the desired result, perhaps the short duration of the spell and fatal magic backlash were actually due to him going ahead without everything he wanted and other phaerrim interferences (a theory for those hating the god metaplot).

And dont forget the phaerrim werent karsuss only enemy, jergal and his clergy would also be acting against him because karsus was trying to interfere with jergals ritual at ascore (thankyou george for that hook).

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  16:04:47  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So, when Karsus was planning his Ultimate Folly spell, he needed to gather and store a hell of a lot of magical energy. So he built this huge ring...

The ring is hundreds of miles in diameter, and it's defined by arrangements of standing stones. From the ground, these stones appear to be randomly scattered about, perhaps even natural formations...

That's a lot of work. This scenario requires Karsus to zip around the whole place for a while, and the Phaerimm to completely miss or leave alone a great chunk of his activity in the wild, never mind he's one of their greatest enemies, they have magic sense and it's more of their territory.
And then Mystra I, Mystra II, Azuth and Savras should miss the possibility of re-use dangerous to the Weave - otherwise they could just send one of their champions to tweak its key parts (or all, in this time) into being unusable for anyone else, or something.



Your scenario requires the phaerimm to keep constant, 24/10 track of Karsus (without him noticing), and to realize that these stone formations scattered over literally thousands of square miles all had some connection to each other. Many of these stone formations wouldn't have been in phaerimm territory, and even the ones that were were above-ground and in unsettled areas -- places the phaerimm wouldn't have any reason to pay attention to.

Besides, if they were watching him that closely, they had other options for stopping him.

Also, none of the deities you mention stopped Karsus from casting his spell in the first place, which shows that they are not omniscient.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Jul 2017 16:06:20
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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
1978 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  17:15:30  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Return of the Archwizards covers the return, as Markustay said. I recommend them if you haven't read them.

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Loki9
Acolyte

3 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  19:20:12  Show Profile Send Loki9 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for all the feedback! Some good ideas for me to mull over. As I said, I'm not married to the official history/timeline and my players are unaware of it, so I can fudge at will.

Markustay, I've seen a "Shadow-shard" in the Tearing of the Weave series, but haven't seen a Karse Stone mention, but that seems like a straight swap I can make and will fit the flavor well. Of those 3 adventures, Shadowdale seems like one I will skip as it seems like it just goes off on a tangent rather than provide a clear path between Cormyr and Anauroch. Anauroch does include some pages from the Nether Scrolls as well, which I think also fits the attempted summoning using awesome magical relics.

George, that is a vastly better idea, and I'm thinking along those same lines- plus didn't WoTC end up crashing the City of Shade into Myth Drannor (IMO the original Ruins of Myth Drannor box was a fantastic setting) which eliminates both, but in a really un-fun way since instead of two fantastic locations to explore, Myth Drannor and a wrecked Netherese city in the desert, they mashed them together.

Since there's no way my PCs will be able to take on the entire city of shade, especially as its arrival coincides with the Phaerimm exploding out of their shackles...perhaps they'll have to figure out a way to damage the mythallar and send the city crashing to the desert - perhaps striking a blow to the Shadovar and the Phaerimm and the same time. And maybe they even recruit the Black Spider, the Shadovar they'll have been chasing all along, to help them destroy his city in order to stop the Phaerimm plague he has also unleashed on the world...

I'm not too worried about the brief return of the Shades back in the day, I'll probably just eliminate it, but at worst, since I'm running with this idea that the Sharn Wall inadvertently also stopped the shifting of Thultanthar back to Toril, then if I find a need for them to have made a brief reappearance, I can explain it by saying it happened before the Sharns created the wall, and once the wall was up, they were trapped in the plane of Shadow.
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Matrix Sorcica
Seeker

Denmark
43 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  20:48:57  Show Profile Send Matrix Sorcica a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Melevaunt had a group of special warriors with him from Vassa, because... Vassa.

He also had to fight the lich Wulgreth, just before he fought the lich Wulgreth. Thats not a typo... don't ask.


Vassa is, though
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13822 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2017 :  01:30:54  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like Krash's version better too.

As for the 'why' of the Karse stone - obviously to move something the size of a city between planes you need some divine energy. Individuals can make the trip fairly easily, but you need a god's help (or a piece of a dead god) to move something that big. I assume 'someone' helped them the first time (Shar?), and they still had that divine assistance... at first. Once they went back to the Shadowfell the second time they lost that 'assist', for whatever reason . Maybe Shar set the whole thing up - brought the Phaerimm to Anauroch from wherever (I'm thinking the Raurin - she had some dabblings with Halaster, and the Imaskari seemed to have 'bottled up' their Phaerimm infestation fairly well).

Hmmmmmm... what if the Imaskari didn't really eliminate the Phaerimm? What if they just sent them back to where they came from, and used temporal magic to do so? So the Phaerimm were pestering the Sarrukh in Anauroch, and they managed to divert a body of water to 'flush' them out. In the mean-time, the Sarrukh start another settlement down by the Lake of Salt, which may have attracted any remaining Phaerimm. The (First) Sundering occurs, and the Creatori are mostly wiped-out, and the Phaerimm just chill for awhile because there isn't much 'powerful magic' around anymore. Then the elves show up and they start bothering them (I'm assuming - where were they during the Crown Wars?), and eventually the Imaskari arrive on the scene anf the Phaerimm all go there. the Imaskari handily defeat them, and the next time we see them they are bothering the Netherese. Could the Imaskari have trapped the Phaerimm, or time-stopped them, and then released them in Anauroch (perhaps to counter the growing power of the Netherese?) Or might it have been an accident (the two empires only overlapped for a short time) - maybe the chronomancer accidentally released them from their stasis with his own dabblings in Time-Magic?

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

which allowed the Sharns to escape Anauroch (and endanger Evereska, amongst other things). After a very convoluted series of adventures, and a major war involving the Sharn against EVERYONE,

How did the Sharn of all things endanger Evereska?
My total BAD - I meant Phaerimm. I was thinking about the 'Sharnwall' and just typed 'Sharn' by accident. Sorry.

quote:
Originally posted by Matrix Sorcica

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Melevaunt had a group of special warriors with him from Vassa, because... Vassa.

He also had to fight the lich Wulgreth, just before he fought the lich Wulgreth. Thats not a typo... don't ask.


Vassa is, though
I NEVER type that name right.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jul 2017 01:40:10
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13822 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2017 :  01:45:27  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Loki9

Markustay, I've seen a "Shadow-shard" in the Tearing of the Weave series, but haven't seen a Karse Stone mention, but that seems like a straight swap I can make and will fit the flavor well. Of those 3 adventures, Shadowdale seems like one I will skip as it seems like it just goes off on a tangent rather than provide a clear path between Cormyr and Anauroch. Anauroch does include some pages from the Nether Scrolls as well, which I think also fits the attempted summoning using awesome magical relics.
I thought it WAS a piece of the Karse-Stone. That may have been conjecture by the folk over on the old WotC boards though.

During the Return of the Archwizards series, the piece of the Karse Stone that was used to bring the city back was stolen by Shar, so she had it at the end of all that. The next 'big happening' regarding her in the Realms she suddenly shows up with this 'Shadow stone', and there are also hints in those adventures themselves that she steered Karsus' research in order to destroy Mystryl.

So it adds-up they are one and the same, even if its never stated.

EDIT: Side-Thought
This just made me think of something - an embryo of a theory about Mystryl having both halves of The Weave, but not Mystra. A long time ago I recall arguing that the plans Shar set in motion that lead up to the ToT may have started way back during Nethril. When Karsus 'stole' Mystryl's power, he got it all - BOTH HALVES. What if the new Mystra only reclaimed the Arcane side? In my original musings I thought that was the moment that gave birth to the Shadow-Weave, which began to grow from there (as Shar nurtured it, and got people to use it, slowly over time so no-one would notice).

So now fast-forward to this current conversation, and what I just said about other people theorizing that the Shadow-Stone was really the Karse-Stone... what if the remains of Karsus was still infused will the Shadow Half of Mystryl's power? From what I understand, Karsus broke into three pieces. If Shar got them all, she might be able to completely reclaim her ancient (and terrible) power. That could be the real reason why magic changed so drastically after the fall of Netheril, and why its nerfed - it was missing half its 'Oomph'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jul 2017 01:55:11
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1426 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2017 :  14:21:02  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


Your scenario requires the phaerimm to keep constant, 24/10 track of Karsus (without him noticing), and to realize that these stone formations scattered over literally thousands of square miles all had some connection to each other. Many of these stone formations wouldn't have been in phaerimm territory, and even the ones that were were above-ground and in unsettled areas -- places the phaerimm wouldn't have any reason to pay attention to.

Nope. Sure, in his enclave he's probably out of reach even for divinations.
But the Phaerimm had to detect intense magic activity when he works on one of those places, and investigate - find out who that was, what he did and whether it was done elsewhere. Whether one of them engaged him at the end of the process or not.
They know he knows about them and is a serious enemy, not that they particularly liked the rest of Netherese arcanists.
Thus if they look for more stone modified this way, watch for more forays, and figure out ways to sabotage these things, it's very likely to be worth the effort one way or another.
Even if they cannot figure out the purpose: when a formidable enemy spends much effort on doing something weird, it's probably not healthy for them to let him finish this handiwork, and even if it's not a threat in any way, still may be an opening that allows to harm him.

Also, nearby mountains are one of the best places to ambush or spy upon the arcanists in general. There are lots of places for various clandestine activity and gathering of goods (material components, slaves, mountaintops for enclaves), while the terrain favours the Phaerimm. Unless an arcanist already knows what to look for, he is limited to line of sight and range, while Phaerimm magic detection seem to be limited only by range, and it's much easier to catch someone without witnesses than on the plains.

quote:
Also, none of the deities you mention stopped Karsus from casting his spell in the first place, which shows that they are not omniscient.

They had a good excuse - none of them did exist at the time.
Mystril obviously knew what Karsus does, and could guess he is likely to choose the most dangerous option (target her), but evidently couldn't act against her own portfolio - at least on this scale and without creating a comparable risk. Which IMO is the most obvious reason why her successor sponsored Azuth (as well as more active mortal and semidivine champions) - to cover her "blind spots": when someone does something dangerous to the Weave and correction by force is called for, it's consistently either him or their followers, never Mystra herself.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2017 :  15:54:36  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


Your scenario requires the phaerimm to keep constant, 24/10 track of Karsus (without him noticing), and to realize that these stone formations scattered over literally thousands of square miles all had some connection to each other. Many of these stone formations wouldn't have been in phaerimm territory, and even the ones that were were above-ground and in unsettled areas -- places the phaerimm wouldn't have any reason to pay attention to.

Nope. Sure, in his enclave he's probably out of reach even for divinations.
But the Phaerimm had to detect intense magic activity when he works on one of those places, and investigate - find out who that was, what he did and whether it was done elsewhere. Whether one of them engaged him at the end of the process or not.
They know he knows about them and is a serious enemy, not that they particularly liked the rest of Netherese arcanists.
Thus if they look for more stone modified this way, watch for more forays, and figure out ways to sabotage these things, it's very likely to be worth the effort one way or another.
Even if they cannot figure out the purpose: when a formidable enemy spends much effort on doing something weird, it's probably not healthy for them to let him finish this handiwork, and even if it's not a threat in any way, still may be an opening that allows to harm him.


Sure, that'll work. Assuming he does everything himself, and that the phaerimm have a continent-wide, continuously-monitored detect Karsus spell in effect, and that he's never taken the simple effort of warding himself against detection, and that he'd attempt a working of this magnitude without any kind of safety mechanism at all in place. It also assumes that it'll never occur to the phaerimm that his efforts could somehow be subverted to their own ends, and that they have nothing better to do than watch one guy out of thousands.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Aug 2017 15:59:03
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MathiasSymbaern
Acolyte

USA
13 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2017 :  04:53:17  Show Profile  Visit MathiasSymbaern's Homepage Send MathiasSymbaern a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just started running a campaign with low level characters that will use Shar as the major mover of events in the realms over the last several centuries. I will be using "Tearing of the Weave " as the next step. I love the idea that Shar manipulated Karse into destroying Mystral. It is now official in my world.
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